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Michelle Obama's Miscarriage

MrWonka

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One of the big reasons why the story about Michelle Obama revealing her miscarriage is so important(among others) is that it's important for women to realize how commonplace miscarriages are and one of the big side effects of attempting to ban abortion is. Too many women think that they would never have an abortion and they would never dream of doing that to their baby. But bans on abortion don't just impact women who want to have an abortion. They impact all women everywhere.

If Abortion is banned it doesn't disappear. It gets pushed into the black market. It gets pushed into dark alleyways. There are a million different ways that woman can cause an intentional miscarriage to prevent a pregnancy she doesn't want. Drugs, alcohol, falling down the stairs...

Currently, in the United States, 1/3 of all pregnancies end in a miscarriage. A natural one. One that is not intentional. For the women who have them, it is tragic and traumatizing. If Abortion is banned how are we going to tell the difference between intentional miscarriages and unintentional ones? If Abortion is Murder then every single solitary miscarriage that happens in the United States is going to require a homicide investigation in which the woman's body is a crime scene and she is the prime suspect.

Think about that for a minute. It doesn't matter if you wanted the miscarriage or not we can't just take your word for it. All the women who intentionally caused their miscarriage will claim it was an accident too. As a result, every woman's miscarriage will need to be treated with the seriousness that a murder investigation requires. Police are going to have to know what you put in your body recently. They're going to have to know as soon as you knew you were pregnant. If you go to your doctor, your doctor will have to report the pregnancy to the police the same way they would if someone came in with a gunshot wound. If you buy a pregnancy test at the local drug store the pharmacist will have to notify the authorities.

Every woman will need to have these intimate details made a matter of public record. Before you even have a baby bump, before you even tell your friends and family. This is the post-Roe vs Wade world. That's why the ruling came down to a right to privacy. The degree of government intrusion in the most personal part of your life would have to be absolutely astounding in order to have any hope of making an abortion ban enforceable.

Every woman who thinks she would never want an abortion needs to understand this. Every woman who thinks aborting your child is horrible needs to understand the grass is not as green as it looks on the other side of the fence before it's too late.
 

straykatz

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In most cases, the same procedure used to clean up after a miscarriage is used to perform an abortion. Do we want to take away the safety of these procedures? Who determines if the procedure is for a miscarriage or an abortion since the same procedure is used?
 

Felis Leo

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One of the big reasons why the story about Michelle Obama revealing her miscarriage is so important(among others) is that it's important for women to realize how commonplace miscarriages are and one of the big side effects of attempting to ban abortion is. Too many women think that they would never have an abortion and they would never dream of doing that to their baby. But bans on abortion don't just impact women who want to have an abortion. They impact all women everywhere.

If Abortion is banned it doesn't disappear. It gets pushed into the black market. It gets pushed into dark alleyways. There are a million different ways that woman can cause an intentional miscarriage to prevent a pregnancy she doesn't want. Drugs, alcohol, falling down the stairs...

Currently, in the United States, 1/3 of all pregnancies end in a miscarriage. A natural one. One that is not intentional. For the women who have them, it is tragic and traumatizing. If Abortion is banned how are we going to tell the difference between intentional miscarriages and unintentional ones? If Abortion is Murder then every single solitary miscarriage that happens in the United States is going to require a homicide investigation in which the woman's body is a crime scene and she is the prime suspect.

Think about that for a minute. It doesn't matter if you wanted the miscarriage or not we can't just take your word for it. All the women who intentionally caused their miscarriage will claim it was an accident too. As a result, every woman's miscarriage will need to be treated with the seriousness that a murder investigation requires. Police are going to have to know what you put in your body recently. They're going to have to know as soon as you knew you were pregnant. If you go to your doctor, your doctor will have to report the pregnancy to the police the same way they would if someone came in with a gunshot wound. If you buy a pregnancy test at the local drug store the pharmacist will have to notify the authorities.

Every woman will need to have these intimate details made a matter of public record. Before you even have a baby bump, before you even tell your friends and family. This is the post-Roe vs Wade world. That's why the ruling came down to a right to privacy. The degree of government intrusion in the most personal part of your life would have to be absolutely astounding in order to have any hope of making an abortion ban enforceable.

Every woman who thinks she would never want an abortion needs to understand this. Every woman who thinks aborting your child is horrible needs to understand the grass is not as green as it looks on the other side of the fence before it's too late.

Perhaps we could look at this from a historical precedent. By that I mean we should ask: How were miscarriages treated in states and jurisdictions where it was illegal to obtain an abortion prior to the passage of Roe v. Wade? Were women who suffered from miscarriages regularly criminally prosecuted for having killed their unborn children?
 
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Jetboogieman

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Tis why I love how many Anti-Choice people also happen to be people that think of themselves as Small Government Conservatives.

Just small enough to get up a woman’s vagina.
 

Felis Leo

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Tis why I love how many Anti-Choice people also happen to be people that think of themselves as Small Government Conservatives.

Just small enough to get up a woman’s vagina.

Well, even if I disagree with them, I understand that if one believes abortion is a form of homicide, that is one of the few places government has a say. If one believes that a government's only role is to protect the life, liberty and property of its people, there is no one more vulnerable than the unborn. :shrug:
 

MrWonka

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Perhaps we could look at this from a historical precedent. By that I mean we should ask: How were miscarriages treated in states and jurisdictions where it was illegal to obtain an abortion prior to the passage of Roe v. Wade? Were women who suffered from miscarriages regularly criminally prosecuted for having killed their fetuses?

No, in the past authorities had no ability to enforce anti-abortion laws. That's the point. Abortions still happened. Abortions didn't start happening when Roe v Wade happened. All that happened was that they became safer. In the past about the only way that authorities could enforce an anti-abortion law was if the father of the child ratted out the woman.
 

MrWonka

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Well, even if I disagree with them, I understand that if one believes abortion is a form of homicide, that is one of the few places government has a say. If one believes that a government's only role is to protect the life, liberty, and property of its people, there is no one more vulnerable than the unborn.
Really? That's weird because the 2nd Amendment gives people the right to protect their own life, liberty, and property with lethal force. There is no piece of property that more obviously belongs to a person than their own body. Yet all these small government, 2nd Amendment enthusiasts sure do change their tune when it comes to a woman's body. It's almost as if most of them live without any fear whatsoever of their body being invaded by an embryo.
 

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Perhaps we could look at this from a historical precedent. By that I mean we should ask: How were miscarriages treated in states and jurisdictions where it was illegal to obtain an abortion prior to the passage of Roe v. Wade? Were women who suffered from miscarriages regularly criminally prosecuted for having killed their unborn children?

Previously, abortion was not illegal in the US.

And what is the point of making abortion illegal if there's no intention of enforcing that law?
 

Lursa

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Well, even if I disagree with them, I understand that if one believes abortion is a form of homicide, that is one of the few places government has a say. If one believes that a government's only role is to protect the life, liberty and property of its people, there is no one more vulnerable than the unborn. :shrug:

It is homicide.

Not all homicide is illegal or unjustified.

Is the govt more tasked with protecting the life, liberty, and property of the unborn or women? Both cannot be protected equally.
 

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Currently, in the United States, 1/3 of all pregnancies end in a miscarriage. A natural one. One that is not intentional. For the women who have them, it is tragic and traumatizing. If Abortion is banned how are we going to tell the difference between intentional miscarriages and unintentional ones? If Abortion is Murder then every single solitary miscarriage that happens in the United States is going to require a homicide investigation in which the woman's body is a crime scene and she is the prime suspect.

Think about that for a minute. It doesn't matter if you wanted the miscarriage or not we can't just take your word for it. All the women who intentionally caused their miscarriage will claim it was an accident too. As a result, every woman's miscarriage will need to be treated with the seriousness that a murder investigation requires. Police are going to have to know what you put in your body recently. They're going to have to know as soon as you knew you were pregnant. If you go to your doctor, your doctor will have to report the pregnancy to the police the same way they would if someone came in with a gunshot wound. If you buy a pregnancy test at the local drug store the pharmacist will have to notify the authorities.

Every woman will need to have these intimate details made a matter of public record. Before you even have a baby bump, before you even tell your friends and family. This is the post-Roe vs Wade world. That's why the ruling came down to a right to privacy. The degree of government intrusion in the most personal part of your life would have to be absolutely astounding in order to have any hope of making an abortion ban enforceable.
.

Yes, this is key.

Thank you.

Also key is that if abortion were made illegal, women that did not want to keep a pregnancy would just not go to Drs.

Today, it's simple and inexpensive to verify a pregnancy with over-the-counter tests. They are very accurate.

If a woman suspected a pregnancy, she'd just go get one, and then order the drugs that cause the fertilized eggs to be released and flushed down the toilet. If necessary, the black market for those drugs would expand as needed.
 
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Felis Leo

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No, in the past authorities had no ability to enforce anti-abortion laws. That's the point. Abortions still happened. Abortions didn't start happening when Roe v Wade happened. All that happened was that they became safer. In the past about the only way that authorities could enforce an anti-abortion law was if the father of the child ratted out the woman.

My question was how miscarriages were treated, because your topic was with regard to miscarriages and how they could potentially be treated as criminal acts if Pro-Life activists have their way and Roe v. Wade is overturned. And if authorities in the past had no ability to enforce anti-abortion laws either against miscarriages or abortions unless their spouse or other parties became witnesses for the prosecution against them, from whence does it logically follow that miscarriages will be treated as abortions? I mean, if there are actual or proposed laws in particular states that are on the books that you want to discuss, that is fine. But suggesting that Roe v. Wade being overturned and abortion banned will somehow automatically lead to women who suffer non-intentional miscarriages being investigated or prosecuted for fetal homicide is a non-sequitur. If on the other hand there are specific laws criminalizing intentionally-induced miscarriages (which I do believe there have been), we should definitely discuss them.
 

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Really? That's weird because the 2nd Amendment gives people the right to protect their own life, liberty, and property with lethal force. There is no piece of property that more obviously belongs to a person than their own body. Yet all these small government, 2nd Amendment enthusiasts sure do change their tune when it comes to a woman's body. It's almost as if most of them live without any fear whatsoever of their body being invaded by an embryo.

They make their case by blaming the woman for having the sex that created the unborn. Even if she is married, even if she used birth control.

""She" created the unborn, now she has to pay the consequences." That's an exceedingly common comment here. They treat the unborn like punishment for behavior they disapprove of.
 

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No, in the past authorities had no ability to enforce anti-abortion laws. That's the point. Abortions still happened. Abortions didn't start happening when Roe v Wade happened. All that happened was that they became safer. In the past about the only way that authorities could enforce an anti-abortion law was if the father of the child ratted out the woman.

And of course anyone with money in a post-Roe world will be able to safely obtain an abortion. Travel to a state with legal abortion, go overseas for a nice vacation, hire a local doctor who will do the abortion and claim it's some other ob/gyn procedure - that was common in my city pre-Roe, with the elder of a very powerful political family the well known go-to abortion provider for the wealthy around here. The real barrier will be for the poor, and that's it, those who can't afford to travel a state or two or three over, hotel, out of pocket for the abortion, another day of observation, whatever.
 

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Its just as well Michelle miscarried,had she had a son he would have looked like Trayvon Martin.
 

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Previously, abortion was not illegal in the US.

And what is the point of making abortion illegal if there's no intention of enforcing that law?

It interesting that abortion is illegal in Mexico and Brazil and they make it work. Are you placing the US as less competent than Mexico and Brazil?
 

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It interesting that abortion is illegal in Mexico and Brazil and they make it work. Are you placing the US as less competent than Mexico and Brazil?

Women's rights are not protected in those countries the way they are in America.

I cant believe I had to spell that out for you.
 

ecofarm

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It interesting that abortion is illegal in Mexico and Brazil and they make it work. Are you placing the US as less competent than Mexico and Brazil?

Back alley abortions with high death rates is not "making it work".
 

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It interesting that abortion is illegal in Mexico and Brazil and they make it work. Are you placing the US as less competent than Mexico and Brazil?

What makes you think those countries make it work?

A bit more than half of the pregnancies in those countries are unintended,

In fact an estimated 54% of all unintended pregnancies in those countries result in induced abortion, 34% end in unplanned births and 12% end in miscarriages.

The abortion rate in those countries is higher than in countries where abortion is legal.
 

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Tis why I love how many Anti-Choice people also happen to be people that think of themselves as Small Government Conservatives.

Just small enough to get up a woman’s vagina.

Or crawl up a gay guy's ass.
 

SDET

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What makes you think those countries make it work?

A bit more than half of the pregnancies in those countries are unintended,

In fact an estimated 54% of all unintended pregnancies in those countries result in induced abortion, 34% end in unplanned births and 12% end in miscarriages.

The abortion rate in those countries is higher than in countries where abortion is legal.

That 54% number doesn't pass the straight face test unless you count abortions where the mother was risking death. They certainly are not elective abortions.
 

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That 54% number doesn't pass the straight face test unless you count abortions where the mother was risking death. They certainly are not elective abortions.

So 54% of all pregnancies (or most of those) are life threatening to Latin American mothers? And you think things are better in those countries? :doh
 

minnie616

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That 54% number doesn't pass the straight face test unless you count abortions where the mother was risking death. They certainly are not elective abortions.

Yes there are many elective abortion even if they are not legal.

About 30 percent of induced abortions involve the use of misoprostol ( a drug that starts contractions).

Other means are by a doctor or by the woman herself. Like the coat hangers, knitting needle days in the US before Roe v Wade.
 

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One of the big reasons why the story about Michelle Obama revealing her miscarriage is so important(among others) is that it's important for women to realize how commonplace miscarriages are and one of the big side effects of attempting to ban abortion is. Too many women think that they would never have an abortion and they would never dream of doing that to their baby. But bans on abortion don't just impact women who want to have an abortion. They impact all women everywhere.

If Abortion is banned it doesn't disappear. It gets pushed into the black market. It gets pushed into dark alleyways. There are a million different ways that woman can cause an intentional miscarriage to prevent a pregnancy she doesn't want. Drugs, alcohol, falling down the stairs...

Currently, in the United States, 1/3 of all pregnancies end in a miscarriage. A natural one. One that is not intentional. For the women who have them, it is tragic and traumatizing. If Abortion is banned how are we going to tell the difference between intentional miscarriages and unintentional ones? If Abortion is Murder then every single solitary miscarriage that happens in the United States is going to require a homicide investigation in which the woman's body is a crime scene and she is the prime suspect.

Think about that for a minute. It doesn't matter if you wanted the miscarriage or not we can't just take your word for it. All the women who intentionally caused their miscarriage will claim it was an accident too. As a result, every woman's miscarriage will need to be treated with the seriousness that a murder investigation requires. Police are going to have to know what you put in your body recently. They're going to have to know as soon as you knew you were pregnant. If you go to your doctor, your doctor will have to report the pregnancy to the police the same way they would if someone came in with a gunshot wound. If you buy a pregnancy test at the local drug store the pharmacist will have to notify the authorities.

Every woman will need to have these intimate details made a matter of public record. Before you even have a baby bump, before you even tell your friends and family. This is the post-Roe vs Wade world. That's why the ruling came down to a right to privacy. The degree of government intrusion in the most personal part of your life would have to be absolutely astounding in order to have any hope of making an abortion ban enforceable.

Every woman who thinks she would never want an abortion needs to understand this. Every woman who thinks aborting your child is horrible needs to understand the grass is not as green as it looks on the other side of the fence before it's too late.

Which one was the miscarriage, Sasha or Malia?
 
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