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Michael Moore

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This is Michael Moore's picture of the US, what do you think?
 

Tetsuo

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This is not even slightly offensive. America is just a country and the sooner overly patriotic people start to realise that burning a flag, poking some fun or even highlighting faults isn't harmful the better the US will become.
 

WKL815

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I'll marginally agree with Tetsuo, thinking of what having the ability to laugh at the crybabies would mean for our mental solidarity.

But, I'll also note that if Michael Moore wanted to be honest about his picture, and done it down to county or precinct, the map would have looked a hell of a lot more snakeish down the coasts than it does.

My favorite journalistic headline of the election was The Guardian's "How could 59,054,087 be so dumb?" I laughed and laughed and laughed. It still tickles me.
 
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Pacridge

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WKL815 said:
I'll marginally agree with Tetsuo, thinking of what having the ability to laugh at the crybabies would mean for our mental solidarity.

But, I'll also note that if Michael Moore wanted to be honest about his picture, and done it down to county or precinct, the map would have looked a hell of a lot more snakeish down the coasts than it does.

My favorite journalistic headline of the election was The Guardian's "How could 59,054,087 be so dumb?" I laughed and laughed and laughed. It still tickles me.
I didn't know the Guardian did a cover story like this, the London "Daily Mirror" did, I know because I have it framed and hanging on my wall.
 

bryanf

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Tetsuo said:
This is not even slightly offensive. America is just a country and the sooner overly patriotic people start to realise that burning a flag, poking some fun or even highlighting faults isn't harmful the better the US will become.

Is it possible to be overly patriotic and passionate about the American way of life?

I can't say I agree with you on this one. I see America as being more than just a country. America is a way of life, one that people all over the world want to live. I've heard stories from the Ukraine, from Russia, from Iraq and Afghanistan of people who want to come and live the American "dream." People who make it a point to oppose the interests, or sovereignty, of our nation seem to me to take for granted the honor that they have to be Americans.

Moore has said that there are no terrorist threats to the United States, and is one of the most vocal critics of the war on terror. Does he have our national interests at heart? I would say that he is one of the many people who takes our freedom for granted, abusing his freedom of speech. But, you know what, he's an American, and he doesn't have to worry about being thrown in prison, or killed, for speaking his mind about our president, the way that Iraqis had to worry about speaking out against Saddam 2 years ago.
 

WKL815

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Pacridge said:
I didn't know the Guardian did a cover story like this, the London "Daily Mirror" did, I know because I have it framed and hanging on my wall.
You have it framed? Awesome! Does it make "you" laugh or cry?

Sorry for the misinfo. I only remember the Guardian I guess because of the Ohio voter thing.
 

Tetsuo

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bryanf said:
Is it possible to be overly patriotic and passionate about the American way of life?

I can't say I agree with you on this one. I see America as being more than just a country. America is a way of life, one that people all over the world want to live. I've heard stories from the Ukraine, from Russia, from Iraq and Afghanistan of people who want to come and live the American "dream." People who make it a point to oppose the interests, or sovereignty, of our nation seem to me to take for granted the honor that they have to be Americans.

Moore has said that there are no terrorist threats to the United States, and is one of the most vocal critics of the war on terror. Does he have our national interests at heart? I would say that he is one of the many people who takes our freedom for granted, abusing his freedom of speech. But, you know what, he's an American, and he doesn't have to worry about being thrown in prison, or killed, for speaking his mind about our president, the way that Iraqis had to worry about speaking out against Saddam 2 years ago.

America may be a way of life but it is one to be proud of? America consumes more than half of the worlds resources every year for the soul aim of capitalism, the gaining of more money. I don't want to sound like I am some looney radical here as that is not the case but to be of a country that is addicted to consumption is not something that I am too proud of.

When people in other countries want to live the American dream they are looking at footage of places like Miami, Vegas or California where the livin' is good. I agree with you that it is an honor be American but then it is also an honor to be French or German or Japanese as these are developed countries with high standards of living, in America I feel there is an arrogance that other countries are somehow inferior, this coupled with the fact that the USA is built ENTIRELY on immigration from other countries I am very uncomfortable with. I don't see how these countries of people can be looked down on when we are made up by people from all around the world.

As for criticizing Michael Moore I have said in the past that I don't see eye to eye with him on a lot of issues but he isn't where he is because he has a better political conscience than the rest of us, he is there because he is a great film maker (that isn't my subjective viewpoint it is cos or the palm d'or and the Oscar). I am sure that he has been criticized before and I am sure it will happen again. I think he serves a valuable purpose in pointing out the flaws and the fall downs of the system. I always raise a smile when Republicans point out that he is rich as tho it is some kind of sin, maybe I have a twisted sense of irony I don't know.

I do believe he has the nations interests at heart and while I don't always agree with his methods or his points I don't doubt his sincerity or his sense of humor. If he is abusing his freedom of speech then he doesn't have it because moral objections are still calls for censorship.
 
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LiberalFINGER

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Well, that's cute, but proves nothing.

Edit:

I'm sorry. I broke one of the rules I hold dear and that's making pissy one line remarks. Please. Accept my apologies and allow me to offer this as a true reply to your post.

Where you showing a coralation between the Cotton Kingdom and a conservative political outlook?

Was this possibly a comparison between the State/federal debate now Vs. then?

How do we account for the multiple shifts in political leanings in the south between the Civil War and now?

I can see one coralation, but I don't think it was what you were after.

The Civil War was actually a matter of states rights Vs. federal control. Oddly enough, slavery was the issue that came to the fore front in this battle due to the artificial boundary set up where states below a certain paralell would be slave states and those above would be free. What was known as the "Cotton Kingdom" was the southern states dependnat mostly on agriculture for economic survival. These states depended on cheap slave labor in order to maintain profits. They were concerned about the economic hardship they felt the loss of slave labor would create. The issue reached critical mass when the cotton kingdom started running out of actual land to create more states and maintain some sort of balance in the senate. A loss in the senate over the slavery issue was immenant.

In order to maintain the economic status quo, the south needed to succeed to prove that issues should be decided by the states, not by the federal government. If you look at the slave/free state map, you will see that the divisions that I speak of. California is an odd exception since half of the state rests above the paralell.

Let's apply this to the stereotypes we have of our political parties.

Democrats = More Federal oriented.
Republicans = More state oriented.

Yes. I know that there are exceptions, but because we are talking about such a large group of people, we need to generalize a bit.

So. . .I'm sorry for saying it was "cute". In all reality it's a neat map and really sparks some thoughts for possible term papers (I'm looking at you HeyJoe), but I don't think it really proves anything as far as this debate goes.
 
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CSA_TX

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Tetsuo

America may be a way of life but it is one to be proud of? America consumes more than half of the worlds resources every year for the soul aim of capitalism, the gaining of more money. I don't want to sound like I am some looney radical here as that is not the case but to be of a country that is addicted to consumption is not something that I am too proud of.
Hell yes the American way of life is something to be proud of.
What do you have against capitalism?
From dictonary.com
capitalism
n.

An economic system in which the means of production and distribution are privately or corporately owned and development is proportionate to the accumulation and reinvestment of profits gained in a free market.capitalism

n : an economic system based on private ownership of capital

Why are you against private ownership? Do you beleive socialism is better?

socialism
n.
  1. Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.
  2. The stage in Marxist-Leninist theory intermediate between capitalism and communism, in which collective ownership of the economy under the dictatorship of the proletariat has not yet been successfully achieved.
Or is communism more you flavor?

communism
n.
  1. A theoretical economic system characterized by the collective ownership of property and by the organization of labor for the common advantage of all members.
  2. Communism
    1. A system of government in which the state plans and controls the economy and a single, often authoritarian party holds power, claiming to make progress toward a higher social order in which all goods are equally shared by the people.
    2. The Marxist-Leninist version of Communist doctrine that advocates the overthrow of capitalism by the revolution of the proletariat.
I'll take capitalism everytime over government infringment thank you very much.
 

CSA_TX

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When people in other countries want to live the American dream they are looking at footage of places like Miami, Vegas or California where the livin' is good
Sorry to break it to ya but living is good everywhere in the Untied States. From Sea to shining sea and everywhere in between living is good. I have traveled to other countries and they were nice however in my biased opinion they just don't compare. The Spanish Riviera had some nice beaches, the Swiss Alps were magnificent, Ice fishing in the woods of Sweden on Christmas day was magical. However I'll take the dirty beaches of the gulf coast, the rocky mountains on a crisp fall morning when the aspen trees are turning colors, or some BBQ at the corner of Crenshaw and Sepulveda in the gangland of south Los Angeles. Of course this is just a good ol boys impression however I have experienced all of these things and I'll take the USA everytime. Unfortinatly I think most Americans take for granted what we have, I for one try not to because I know how lucky I am to have been born here and to live here. The land were an imigrant can work hard and become a billionare.

this coupled with the fact that the USA is built ENTIRELY on immigration from other countries I am very uncomfortable with. I don't see how these countries of people can be looked down on when we are made up by people from all around the world.
If my great grandfather were still alive or even if my grandfather were alive I would be sure to let them know that Cherokee indians from Oklahoma are now imigrants. Sorry dude but you are a freaking moron panty waste. Sorry for the outburst but when you insult my heritage or my country you get this good ol boy fired up.
So I'll leave you with a few lines from one of my favorite songs:

"I hear people talkin' bad,
About the way we have to live here in this country,
Harpin' on the wars we fight,
An' gripin' 'bout the way things oughta be.
An' I don't mind 'em switchin' sides,
An' standin' up for things they believe in.
When they're runnin' down my country, man,
They're walkin' on the fightin' side of me.
Yeah, walkin' on the fightin' side of me.
Runnin' down the way of life,
Our fightin' men have fought and died to keep.
If you don't love it, leave it:
Let this song I'm singin' be a warnin'.
If you're runnin' down my country, man,
You're walkin' on the fightin' side of me"
 

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Hey, CSA's got a point.

I've lived in Texas, Georgia, Washington, Virginia, Maryland, Tennessee, Kentucky, and Hawaii. From what I can tell, everywhere I went, I still had the same basic freedoms.

Unlike the years I lived in Germany, I didn't have to worry about police with uzis.
 

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Man, I love this site. All this from a cartoon map.


CSA_TX: Hate to break it to you but "living is good everywhere in the Untied States" isn't a completely accurate statement. We have many places in this country that aren't exactly riding the gravy train. Almost every major city has what could only be referred to as a ghetto or slum. Lot's of rural area's are not faring so well either. Every year the gap between the rich and the poor gets wider. And every year we end up with more homeless, many of whom are vets, that ought to be a crime in and of itself. Sure we've got one hell of a great thing going here, but there's room for improvement. and turning a blind eye to anything we don't like to admit about our country won't ensure we're able to keep this great thing going. I'm always amazed at how we send our tax dollars over seas to help others while we have so many here going hungery. I'm also amazed at how many of these countries take our hand out and then claim we're evil, vile, war mongers. Don't like us, don't take our hand outs.

And Dude, you're a smart, well read, well educated person, obviously. Why then the "you are a freaking moron panty waste"? You make valid points on a regular basis. Name calling rarely helps you make those points.


LiberalFINGER: I'm not sure I understand the point you're trying to make here: "Unlike the years I lived in Germany, I didn't have to worry about police with uzis".
 

CSA_TX

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Pacridge my temper got the best of me with the panty waste coment however odviously this Tetsuo hasn't a clue. I would love for him to take a trip to a reservation and claim
the USA is built ENTIRELY on immigration from other countries
. Granted when you get to me there isn't much cherokee blood running through my veins however my grandfather went to jail for someone making a similar claim to him. Unfortinatly the firewater caught up with grandpa however he did pass on some pride and respect for our ancestors.

I'm always amazed at how we send our tax dollars over seas to help others while we have so many here going hungery. I'm also amazed at how many of these countries take our hand out and then claim we're evil, vile, war mongers. Don't like us, don't take our hand outs
I find myself agreeing with you on this. It is a damn shame how we are perceived across the globe when we have given so much.

Hate to break it to you but "living is good everywhere in the Untied States" isn't a completely accurate statement.
I disagree with you on this. Because I personally would rather be homeless and living in the the United States than be living in another place. I agree that there are problems many problems however I would be lying to say I think it would better somewhere else. Look at all the imagrants that still come to our country not for places like Miami, Vegas or California but come for the American dream and freedom.
 

Pacridge

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CSA_TX said:
Pacridge my temper got the best of me with the panty waste coment however odviously this Tetsuo hasn't a clue. I would love for him to take a trip to a reservation and claim . Granted when you get to me there isn't much cherokee blood running through my veins however my grandfather went to jail for someone making a similar claim to him. Unfortinatly the firewater caught up with grandpa however he did pass on some pride and respect for our ancestors.


I find myself agreeing with you on this. It is a damn shame how we are perceived across the globe when we have given so much.


I disagree with you on this. Because I personally would rather be homeless and living in the the United States than be living in another place. I agree that there are problems many problems however I would be lying to say I think it would better somewhere else. Look at all the imagrants that still come to our country not for places like Miami, Vegas or California but come for the American dream and freedom.
Well Dude, as my Grandpa used to tell me- Nobody's prefect, rummor has it the last guy that was they nailed to a cross- don't want any part of that job. I just think deep down you're above the name calling and your arguements are far more effective without. Just my two cents.

I agree and I disagree with you on conditions here. Yeah, I'd rather be homeless here than anywhere else, though there are some islands in the South Pacific that I visited while in the Navy that would be warm and cheap. But that doesn't mean things are always great here. It seems to me there been this ground swell of thought that basically says if you say anything that doesn't paint the USA out as being great then you're against the USA. Personally I've come to believe honest introspect may be the only way we can maintain our place as the greatest nation on earth. I want this to be a great nation for my grand kids and their grand kids et el. I don't think turning a blind eye to our problems will help anyone. And I believe there's been a lot of blindness of late.
 

argexpat

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CSA_TX said:
I find myself agreeing with you on this. It is a damn shame how we are perceived across the globe when we have given so much.
The idea that the U.S. is a benefactor to the world, that it has "given so much" is a common misconception among Americans. Actually, we rank dead last among developed nations in per capita outlays of foreign aid. As a percentage of GNP, the U.S. gives a measly .14% of GNP, while tiny Norway, ranked number one, gives .92% of GNP.
 

Pacridge

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argexpat said:
The idea that the U.S. is a benefactor to the world, that it has "given so much" is a common misconception among Americans. Actually, we rank dead last among developed nations in per capita outlays of foreign aid. As a percentage of GNP, the U.S. gives a measly .14% of GNP, while tiny Norway, ranked number one, gives .92% of GNP.
I did not know that. Great, another reason for people to dislike us. Ya gotta admit we do give anway a lot of bombs though. But I'm guessing people who receive them aren't all that thrilled with us either.
 

Rhadamanthus

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Alaska should be part of the united states of canada. Any body here from mississsippi? you can have our republicans.
 

heyjoeo

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argexpat said:
Here's a more accurate map:




Oh, how far we've come...
I'll tell you what that means...Slavery is bad and so are republicans! HA!

No but seriously. That's funny.
 

Mr.America

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heyjoeo said:
I'll tell you what that means...Slavery is bad and so are republicans! HA!

No but seriously. That's funny.

Actually, Republicans used to be more liberal than Democrats (who where the slave owners) back in the mid 1600s.
 

heyjoeo

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Mr.America said:
Actually, Republicans used to be more liberal than Democrats (who where the slave owners) back in the mid 1600s.
However the Democratic Party back then were Democratic-Republicans and eventually became the Republican party that we know today.
 

Rhadamanthus

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so the republicans back then are the democrats now?
 

heyjoeo

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Yup! The Republican party we know today began with Abraham Lincoln. He was part of the Whig party, a party with strong nationalistic desire, and big on big government.

Strangly enough, the roles of Repubilcan and Democrat have shifted a bit. The Democratic party used to be the party of the farmers and working class people. However the new "grassroots" evangalistic outlook from the Republican party is stealing that base from the Democrats.

Mainly because the Republican party is driving the populace away from Governmental issues to "morality" bullshit such as Gay Marriage and Abortion. Then they use the side of the democrats (mainly pro both of those) to cast the Democratic party as "evil" or "so liberal and far out that they cannot possibily be part of America." It really bothers me too. After all, Abraham Lincoln DESPISED religion, and claimed he had nothing to do with Christianity. Funny because I just saw a quote on the president saying "see how you can be president without a relationship with the Lord."

Lincoln (as someone else noted in a different post) said this....
The Bible is not my book and Christianity is not my religion. I could never give assent to the long complicated statements of Christian dogma. - - Abraham Lincoln.

Interesting shift, eh?
 

heyjoeo

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Oh and I forgot to mention, because they use issues like abortion and gay marraige to polarize the country, they make the American people forget about issues like foreign policy and the economy. Why? Because the Republicans suck at it.
 
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