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Mexican teachers will have none of it either . . .

MaggieD

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Try to evaluate teachers and they go bananas . . .

Thousands of riot police clashed with teachers protesting at educational reforms, dispersing the crowd with water cannon and tear gas.Violent clashes took place to end the occupation of Mexico City's Zocalo Square, where furious teachers had set up a large protest camp for many weeks.
Police moved into the area minutes after a deadline set by the government for the teachers to leave the square.
Although many teachers had left following an eviction notice calling for the removal of their camp in time for Independence Day celebrations on Sunday 15 September, some hard-core protestors stayed on...

The teachers were angry at President Enrique Pena Nieto's reforms to introduce a universal evaluation which would change the way they are hired, evaluated and promoted.
Those who fail evaluations are could be dismissed.
Teachers have marched in the capital over 15 times in the last two months.

You want to actually evaluate​ us?? Damn you!!!

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/articles/5...ice-striking-teachers-mexico-water-cannon.htm
 

Thrilla

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it seems to be a basic human belief that accountability is something that's meant for the other guy, not for yourself.
 

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it seems to be a basic human belief that accountability is something that's meant for the other guy, not for yourself.

I've always struggled with getting employees to track their productivity. They absolutely despise it. Personally, I think it is necessary and that the argument against "teaching to the test" is bullcrap. I've had employees to quit, telling me that they don't think that it is "fair" that I evaluate their performance or have standards.

The tests should be designed broadly to include everything that may be taught in a particular subject, and should be graded in such a manner that students are compared on a percentile bases. Doesn't matter what the absolute score is, I mean a 15% could be "passing" or average if the test was broad enough. What really matters to administrators is to compare how much improvement their students are making, and to track whether their students are below average, average, better than average, or super duper smart and motivated. As far as evaluating teachers, this is easy enough if the students are tested annually, so that the performance of each individual students test can be compared to the previous years test result. If the average change in test scores increases substantially, then apparently the teacher is doing a good job, if they stagnate, then I don't know that the teacher did anything, and if they drop there is obviously an issue that needs to be fixed.

Teachers don't really then have to teach to the test, they just need to teach the subject, and the results of their teaching and the students learning is reasonably accurately indicated by the results because if the test is scored on a percentile bases, all students are being compared to other students and not to some random standards.

Every time that a teacher complains about having to teach to the test, their argument always comes down to "the tests aren't good". the way I see it, then the issue isn't that we test, it's that we need better tests. But I bet if we had better tests, teachers would still complain. They just don't want it to be known which teachers and students are good, and which ones suck and should be fired (both the students and teachers).
 
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Thrilla

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I've always struggled with getting employees to track their productivity. They absolutely despise it. Personally, I think it is necessary and that the argument against "teaching to the test" is bullcrap.


The tests should be designed broadly to include everything that may be taught in a particular subject, and should be graded in such a manner that students are compared on a percentile bases. Teachers don't really then have to teach to the test, they just need to teach the subject, and the results of their teaching and the students learning is reasonably accurately indicated by the results because if the test is scored on a percentile bases, all students are being compared to other students and not to some random standards.

Every time that a teacher complains about having to teach to the test, their argument always comes down to "the tests aren't good". the way I see it, then the issue isn't that we test, it's that we need better tests. But I bet if we had better tests, teachers would still complain. They just don't want it to be known which teachers and students are good, and which ones suck and should be fired (both the students and teachers).
agreed...

and I don't understand our preoccupation over the "big test" at the end of the year....it seems everything we do is geared towards it..... and then a lot of effort is expended trying to escape the consequences of the result.
 

Diogenes

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it seems to be a basic human belief that accountability is something that's meant for the other guy, not for yourself.

Especially for under-achievers. Successful people have the ability to acknowledge their mistakes and learn from them.
 

Risky Thicket

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We go to Mexico several times a year. We haven't visited any schools, we have no reason to. But, I do know that teachers in Mexico are respected more than teachers in the U.S. But, we're talking two distinct cultures.

Teachers in most states are already tested and certified and/or licensed.

How qualified are the people who test the teachers? Perhaps that is what the teachers in Mexico are protesting. Kids everywhere are often a pain ass a lot of times and parents are even worse. You can be most knowledgeable and competent, but if student's parents let their kids run wild and stay out half the night, a good teacher isn't going to be very effective.

How about learning styles vis-a-vis teaching styles? They don't always match. How about student to teacher ratios? Available support staff? Lack of parent involvement in the school? All those and a great deal more affect teacher effectiveness.
 

MaggieD

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How about learning styles vis-a-vis teaching styles? They don't always match. How about student to teacher ratios? Available support staff? Lack of parent involvement in the school? All those and a great deal more affect teacher effectiveness.

How about evaluating the teachers? Just because one has a college degree and teaching credentials does NOT mean one is a good teacher. While we in this country go out of our way to say how special and talented and dedicated teachers are? All one needs is a teaching certificate. Anybody can do it.
 

Risky Thicket

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I agree, Mags. Not everyone can teach. I couldn't.

If they make me King of Education tomorrow I will require all teachers to have a masters degree in education with an undergrad degree in or closely related to the subject area they will teach. The school system would subsidize additional degrees in subject areas. Teachers additionally certified in teaching English as a second language would receive a salary increase.

Teachers would paid a much better salaries than they now receive.
 

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...

How about learning styles vis-a-vis teaching styles? They don't always match. How about student to teacher ratios? Available support staff? Lack of parent involvement in the school? All those and a great deal more affect teacher effectiveness.

I agree, especially the part that I bolded.

As far as matching up students to teachers, I think the only thing we can do about that is to try to make our classes more homogenious in nature, which probably is a good argument for larger schools, even though almost every educator argues against doing that. If you have larger schools, then you have a larger student population, and it becomes easier to group students together into classrooms where all the students are more or less on the same level, and to assign them to teachers who are strong in teaching that particular type of student.

At my son's school, for many years they only had one teacher teaching band, and he had to teach at two different campuses. This meant that they only had two different band classes at each school, thus all the kids were pretty much lumped in together, the kids who could barely make a tone on their instrument in the same classes with those who were allregion and allstate level musicians. Didn't work out that well. Eventually, the school hired an assistant band director, and they now have three different levels of band classes, and the kids are now getting much more out of class, and the great musicians aren't hindered by the not-so-great, and the not-so-great are able to get a little more personal attention so they have risen to the level of at least no being embarissing bad.

Although band isn't really an important class academically, music is important, and I would think that they same type of grouping of like students together would make for a higher achievement level in any academic or art or PE or vocational subject.
 

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How about evaluating the teachers? Just because one has a college degree and teaching credentials does NOT mean one is a good teacher. While we in this country go out of our way to say how special and talented and dedicated teachers are? All one needs is a teaching certificate. Anybody can do it.

Yet they don't just hand out teaching certificates to everyone. At least those who get them typically did some student teaching and took some classes in education.

I kid I went to college with failed his student teaching during what he expected to be his last semester of college, and was forced to change his degree program. His evaluator told him that he just wasn't cut out to be a teacher. He was pretty much devistated, I felt really bad for him, but yet I'm glad that the guy was culled out, and he could then go into a field where maybe he was better suited.

My own kid just changed his major in college. He was a music education student, and if he had completed the program, he would have been licensed to teach music at grades K-12. After two years of college he realized that he probably wouldn't make a very good teacher. He is still a music major, will graduate this summer, after just 3 years of college, but plans to go to grad school for something that he is more suited for. He's taking the LSAT in about three weeks, and will take the GMAT the month after, hoping to enroll in a joint MBA/JD program for next year.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't have better teacher education, we should, but I am saying that not just anyone off the street can get a job teaching.
 

Boo Radley

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I've always struggled with getting employees to track their productivity. They absolutely despise it. Personally, I think it is necessary and that the argument against "teaching to the test" is bullcrap. I've had employees to quit, telling me that they don't think that it is "fair" that I evaluate their performance or have standards.

The tests should be designed broadly to include everything that may be taught in a particular subject, and should be graded in such a manner that students are compared on a percentile bases. Doesn't matter what the absolute score is, I mean a 15% could be "passing" or average if the test was broad enough. What really matters to administrators is to compare how much improvement their students are making, and to track whether their students are below average, average, better than average, or super duper smart and motivated. As far as evaluating teachers, this is easy enough if the students are tested annually, so that the performance of each individual students test can be compared to the previous years test result. If the average change in test scores increases substantially, then apparently the teacher is doing a good job, if they stagnate, then I don't know that the teacher did anything, and if they drop there is obviously an issue that needs to be fixed.

Teachers don't really then have to teach to the test, they just need to teach the subject, and the results of their teaching and the students learning is reasonably accurately indicated by the results because if the test is scored on a percentile bases, all students are being compared to other students and not to some random standards.

Every time that a teacher complains about having to teach to the test, their argument always comes down to "the tests aren't good". the way I see it, then the issue isn't that we test, it's that we need better tests. But I bet if we had better tests, teachers would still complain. They just don't want it to be known which teachers and students are good, and which ones suck and should be fired (both the students and teachers).



I think it's more than that. Sure, teachers don't want hoop jumping, and some might complain no matter what, but the real issue is what you evaluating? The teacher can do everything right in an inner city troubled school district and still look worse than a teacher in a wealthy less troubled district when the measure is student achievement alone. Not only does this too often present an inaccurate picture, but t tells us little if what the teacher is doing.

In any job it helps to have evaluations, but it helps to have them by people who know the job. Too often, people who don't understand the job are evaluating.

Recognizing this and other problems we currently have is not being opposed to accountability. I'm not. But I do think it is fair to use multiple measures, and to use measures that actually tell us something.
 

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I think it's more than that. Sure, teachers don't want hoop jumping, and some might complain no matter what, but the real issue is what you evaluating? The teacher can do everything right in an inner city troubled school district and still look worse than a teacher in a wealthy less troubled district when the measure is student achievement alone. Not only does this too often present an inaccurate picture, but t tells us little if what the teacher is doing.

In any job it helps to have evaluations, but it helps to have them by people who know the job. Too often, people who don't understand the job are evaluating.

Recognizing this and other problems we currently have is not being opposed to accountability. I'm not. But I do think it is fair to use multiple measures, and to use measures that actually tell us something.

thats a problem, but in our state they have largely fixed that issue. School performance is compared on a "schools like ours" bases, based upon demographics. So a school with 80% of the student body under the poverty level only gets directly compared to other schools with a high poverty rate, and schools with low poverty rates get compared to other schools with poverty rates. They also compare schools based upon size.
 

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thats a problem, but in our state they have largely fixed that issue. School performance is compared on a "schools like ours" bases, based upon demographics. So a school with 80% of the student body under the poverty level only gets directly compared to other schools with a high poverty rate, and schools with low poverty rates get compared to other schools with poverty rates. They also compare schools based upon size.

That would help. What is the student's reason to play? Here students admit to just making designs as there is no consequence.
 

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thats a problem, but in our state they have largely fixed that issue. School performance is compared on a "schools like ours" bases, based upon demographics. So a school with 80% of the student body under the poverty level only gets directly compared to other schools with a high poverty rate, and schools with low poverty rates get compared to other schools with poverty rates. They also compare schools based upon size.

Interesting. How is that working out? Are the graduates of schools in high poverty rate areas leaving school with the educational skills needed to get a job and contribute to society?
 

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Interesting. How is that working out? Are the graduates of schools in high poverty rate areas leaving school with the educational skills needed to get a job and contribute to society?

The reason that I brought that up has nothing to do with whether schools are being successful, but because someone else brought up issues with comparing teachers based upon test scores of students in schools that are much different. So teachers who teach at a school with a high poverty rate arent being evaluated with the expectation that their students test scores will be as high as the average, and so that teachers who teach in low poverty rate areas aren't necessarally given a huge pat on that back for being a great teacher, when it is to be expected that their students will have higher scores just due to demographics.

Anyhow, thats a good question, and I can't answer it because I don't know. But at least in theory, schools should be able to target their education programs more towards the types of jobs, and levels of jobs, that their students are most likely to accomplish. I would think that since realistically, kids in schools with high poverty levels are more likely to need vocational training than AP Calculus, high poverty level schools should emphasize vocational training more than schools in low poverty level areas.

Of course this doesn't help the outliers that much. Like Bernake graduated high school from one of the most impoverished areas in my state, then went on to earn a PhD and become the nations top economist (whether you agree with him or not), I believe they call that area the "I-95 corridor of shame".
 

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The reason that I brought that up has nothing to do with whether schools are being successful, but because someone else brought up issues with comparing teachers based upon test scores of students in schools that are much different. So teachers who teach at a school with a high poverty rate arent being evaluated with the expectation that their students test scores will be as high as the average, and so that teachers who teach in low poverty rate areas aren't necessarally given a huge pat on that back for being a great teacher, when it is to be expected that their students will have higher scores just due to demographics.

Anyhow, thats a good question, and I can't answer it because I don't know. But at least in theory, schools should be able to target their education programs more towards the types of jobs, and levels of jobs, that their students are most likely to accomplish. I would think that since realistically, kids in schools with high poverty levels are more likely to need vocational training than AP Calculus, high poverty level schools should emphasize vocational training more than schools in low poverty level areas.

Of course this doesn't help the outliers that much. Like Bernake graduated high school from one of the most impoverished areas in my state, then went on to earn a PhD and become the nations top economist (whether you agree with him or not), I believe they call that area the "I-95 corridor of shame".

I'd be careful in assuming that to be the case. Tracking, as we used to call it, delayed my success for a long time. I'm not saying there shouldn't be those options. I just think we should be careful with limiting.
 

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Try to evaluate teachers and they go bananas . . .



You want to actually evaluate​ us?? Damn you!!!

Mexican Riots: Riot Police Fire Tear Gas at Teacher Protest - IBTimes UK


In a way I kind of understand it.

First we tie their hands and feet, then put a gag and blinders on them, then we dump them in a room full of barely-housebroken savages over whom they have hardly any authority, tell them to teach the children while thus bound, and say we're going to hold you accountable for any wild naked dirty savage who fails to learn under those conditions.


I guess I'd be pissed too.
 

ttwtt78640

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Interesting. How is that working out? Are the graduates of schools in high poverty rate areas leaving school with the educational skills needed to get a job and contribute to society?

That is the real shame of it all. To keep graduation rates (self esteem?) up the K-12 education machine sets the bar ever lower - in the name of "fariness" for selected zip codes. The next step is to award AA points to "level the playing field" at the college level, further ignoring reality until eventually they are allowed to be supported by the gov't eternally in exchange for their prefered voting patterns. Students pretend to learn form teachers that pretend to teach - the only reality is that it is all paid for with other people's money and is constantly declared to be a success.
 

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How about evaluating the teachers? Just because one has a college degree and teaching credentials does NOT mean one is a good teacher. While we in this country go out of our way to say how special and talented and dedicated teachers are? All one needs is a teaching certificate. Anybody can do it.

I have no problem with evaluation. In fact I was annoyed that I was never observed last year. This year we have a new evaluation system that is supposed to include many observations. I haven't been observed yet which is quite frustrating. So, as I said, I have not problem with evaluation as long as it is valid. I expect to be evaluated on what I do and on the results that I can control and directly impact. I have no problem with part of that evaluation including test scores as long as they are use correctly.

As for you statement, "we in this country go out of our way to how special and talented and dedicated teachers are." That has not been my experience in the real world, on this forum, or even in this thread.
 
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nota bene

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I agree, Mags. Not everyone can teach. I couldn't.

If they make me King of Education tomorrow I will require all teachers to have a masters degree in education with an undergrad degree in or closely related to the subject area they will teach. The school system would subsidize additional degrees in subject areas. Teachers additionally certified in teaching English as a second language would receive a salary increase.

Teachers would paid a much better salaries than they now receive.

I disagree on the Master's in Education. Better, if one intends to teach, is a Master's in Biology with a minor in education so you can learn all about measurement and assessment, learning styles and Bloom's Taxonomy and "delayed success" (as opposed to the old-fashioned "failure"), and blah-blah-blah.
 

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I disagree on the Master's in Education. Better, if one intends to teach, is a Master's in Biology with a minor in education so you can learn all about measurement and assessment, learning styles and Bloom's Taxonomy and "delayed success" (as opposed to the old-fashioned "failure"), and blah-blah-blah.

If you are teaching biology in Jr. High, is it more important that you are a good biologist, or a good teacher?

Anyhow, in my state, at the high school level, what you are describing is exactly how teachers get licensed. They major in the subject that they want to teach, then they either minor in education (requiring an extra semester of college for the student teaching), or they get a M.A. T. (masters of art in teaching).
 

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That is the real shame of it all. To keep graduation rates (self esteem?) up the K-12 education machine sets the bar ever lower - in the name of "fariness" for selected zip codes

Maybe they do that in some places, but that wasn't this gist of my post. The topic I was responding to was teacher evaluation, and I intended to convey that for the purposes of individual student evaluation, they compare test scores between similar schools, not for the purpose of pass/fail or anything else.

You guys are sort of taking my statement out of the context that I intended, but thats OK, obviously I didn't do a good job of explaining what I meant.
 
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Aunt Spiker

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agreed...

and I don't understand our preoccupation over the "big test" at the end of the year....it seems everything we do is geared towards it..... and then a lot of effort is expended trying to escape the consequences of the result.

Well - it was always 'there' in some fashion - but the 'big test' became a 'big deal' when they decided to take the results and base a teacher's overall success on it. Aka - the students doing well on the test means more now than it used to.

It used to be students would Christmas Tree that sucker up when they found out it wasn't important to THE STUDENT'S grades. I remember putting some effort into taking ht tests, and then just sort of getting tired of testing because it's so time consuming and difficult, that I'd quit trying and would just doodle around.

The only way teachers saw to get the results to turn out right (in the teacher's favor) was to get the students to obsess over it. The only way to do that is to turn the test into the biggest focus of the year.
 

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I have no problem with evaluation. In fact I was annoyed that I was never observed last year. This year we have a new evaluation system that is supposed to include many observations. I haven't been observed yet which is quite frustrating. So, as I said, I have not problem with evaluation as long as it is valid. I expect to be evaluated on what I do and on the results that I can control and directly impact. I have no problem with part of that evaluation including test scores as long as they are use correctly.

As for you statement, "we in this country go out of our way to how special and talented and dedicated teachers are." That has not been my experience in the real world, on this forum, or even in this thread.

I'm assuming that your classrooms must not have cameras. I realize that may sound creepy, and it is, but I would think that the best way to observe a teacher is when the teacher isn't aware that they are being observed.

I have a slight anxiety disorder, and would be crazy nervous if I knew that I was being evaluated. Never could speak in front of a group of more than about ten or fifteen people, which probably is why I'm not a teacher, but I totally freak out if I feel that even just one person is "judging" me. Even someone just watching my type or do simple tasks.

My wife once was on a school evaluation team, and she said that it was quite obvious that a show was being put on during the evaluation. We've both been in that school a zillion times, and are aware that it is pretty much typical and average. But on those particular two days of the evaluation, she said it was darned near perfect as far as students being where they were supposed to be when they are supposed to be there and being attentive in the classroom.
 
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