Methodist Vs Pc USA (or really denominational differences)

[tosca1]

It wasn't voluntary in the sense that one chose to participate in it or not ... they ALL held in common ... Now there was also along With that a system of distribution where People could decide what to and what not to give. There was collectiosn from one city to another as well.

So you had shared property, as well as the distribution system.

Lydia was wealthy ...

But again ... what is the principle ... what made the Mosaic economic system different from all the others ... the social justice laws.

What made the Christian economic system different from all the others, the communal property and sharing.

If you think that this should have 0 impact on what kind of economic systems and institutions we support you're simply putting Your head in the sand.

Voluntary! Cheerful giving!



2 Cor 9

Generosity Encouraged

6 Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously. 7 Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. 8 And God is able to bless you abundantly, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work.

9 As it is written:
“They have freely scattered their gifts to the poor;
their righteousness endures forever.”[a]

10 Now he who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will also supply and increase your store of seed and will enlarge the harvest of your righteousness. 11 You will be enriched in every way so that you can be generous on every occasion, and through us your generosity will result in thanksgiving to God.

12 This service that you perform is not only supplying the needs of the Lord’s people but is also overflowing in many expressions of thanks to God. 13 Because of the service by which you have proved yourselves, others will praise God for the obedience that accompanies your confession of the gospel of Christ, and for your generosity in sharing with them and with everyone else. 14 And in their prayers for you their hearts will go out to you, because of the surpassing grace God has given you. 15 Thanks be to God for his indescribable gift!




Read it again:

7 Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion,


What you have decided in your heart to give.

Not reluctantly.

Not under compulsion.



Cannot get any clearer than that!

 

[RGacky3]

????

You will have false profits among you does not speak to a church at all. The comments are about individual beliefs.

The rest is window dressing but thanks for the effort.

Well, if you want to be a literalist With the bible, and only Count when the Word "Church" is used, and not actually do any theology, then by all means go Ahead.

 

[RGacky3]

I did not say there is no social gospel in the Bible. Of course there is both in the Old and New Testaments. But again, charity as expressed in Biblical doctrine is voluntary, not mandatory and justice is commanded by God and not a dictate of government. The people organized the Church via social contract--voluntarily--not by decree. Yes, life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness are words from the Declaration of Independence, not the Bible, but they were hardly 'secular': ". . .“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.”. . .

The mosaic Law .... WAS A LAW ...
Yes .. life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness are secular, we are not look for personal happiness but rather God's glory, we are not to persue Liberty but rather servitude to God.

Social-Contract is voluntary, in the sense that one doesn't have to join the Church ...

But are you SERIOUSLY claiming that had the apostles been running a larger community, say a city, they would not run it by the same principles?

And in my opinion they are supported by scripture:

“he said to them, 'Take to heart all the words I have solemnly declared to you this day, so that you may command your children to obey carefully all the words of this law. They are not just idle words for you—they are your life. By them you will live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to possess.'”
Deuteronomy 32:46,47

“the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it—he will be blessed in what he does.” (James 1:25).

“To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, 'If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.'”
John 8:31,32

Galatians 5:13 - For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only [use] not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

Galatians 5:1 - Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Isaiah 61:1 - The Spirit of the Lord GOD [is] upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to [them that are] bound;

2 Peter 2:19 - While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

“if you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love. I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete.” (John 15:10,11)

There are many many more Biblical references for God's intention for humankind to live in a state of life, liberty, and joy. But absolutely no scriptures assigning the responsibility for that to either the Church or the government.

You're mistaking the American, materialist, capitalist perversion of what "Liberty" is, as opposed to biblical Liberty, biblical Liberty is freedom from slavery to sin. Capitalism is INSTITUTIONALIZED sin, it's mandated sin in the form of the profit motive and profit maximization as well as a competative economy, Capitalism is systemic greed.

 

[RGacky3]

Voluntary! Cheerful giving!



2 Cor 9

Generosity Encouraged

6 Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously. 7 Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. 8 And God is able to bless you abundantly, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work.

9 As it is written:
“They have freely scattered their gifts to the poor;
their righteousness endures forever.”[a]

10 Now he who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will also supply and increase your store of seed and will enlarge the harvest of your righteousness. 11 You will be enriched in every way so that you can be generous on every occasion, and through us your generosity will result in thanksgiving to God.

12 This service that you perform is not only supplying the needs of the Lord’s people but is also overflowing in many expressions of thanks to God. 13 Because of the service by which you have proved yourselves, others will praise God for the obedience that accompanies your confession of the gospel of Christ, and for your generosity in sharing with them and with everyone else. 14 And in their prayers for you their hearts will go out to you, because of the surpassing grace God has given you. 15 Thanks be to God for his indescribable gift!


Read it again:

7 Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion,


What you have decided in your heart to give.

Not reluctantly.

Not under compulsion.



Cannot get any clearer than that!

Yes, the context of this is the Christian Church in Corinth giving Money to Paul to bring to Jerusalem ... it isn't about the internal communal Church system. But that being said, yes, we should share willingly and With joy.

You're comparing Apples and Oranges here, Paul here was talking about the Church giving funds to Jerusalem, I was talking about the actual internal communal Church system.

 

[AlbqOwl]

The mosaic Law .... WAS A LAW ...
Yes .. life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness are secular, we are not look for personal happiness but rather God's glory, we are not to persue Liberty but rather servitude to God.

Social-Contract is voluntary, in the sense that one doesn't have to join the Church ...

But are you SERIOUSLY claiming that had the apostles been running a larger community, say a city, they would not run it by the same principles?

And in my opinion they are supported by scripture:



You're mistaking the American, materialist, capitalist perversion of what "Liberty" is, as opposed to biblical Liberty, biblical Liberty is freedom from slavery to sin. Capitalism is INSTITUTIONALIZED sin, it's mandated sin in the form of the profit motive and profit maximization as well as a competative economy, Capitalism is systemic greed.

Sorry, but I believe the Gospel is a gospel of how to live here and now as well as the state of our respective souls, and I believe the Gospel is of a much more practical nature than what you seem to be assigning to it. I believe the Gospel in no way disputed capitalism and in fact supported it as did the Old Testament beginning with the story of Adam and Eve. We can agree to disagree on that.

 

[ALiberalModerate]

I would say that Methodists are halfway between Episcopalians and Baptists. Their theology is closer to Baptists but their church structure is closer to the Anglicans. Presbyterians have a church structure that is closer to Baptists but a theology that is much different (Calvinism vs Arminianism).

I would also point out that years ago the Methodist Churches were much more fire and brimstone than the Baptists were. The Methodists have mellowed over the past few decades while the Southern and Missionary Baptists have gotten more hardcore.

 

[tosca1]

Yes, the context of this is the Christian Church in Corinth giving Money to Paul to bring to Jerusalem ... it isn't about the internal communal Church system. But that being said, yes, we should share willingly and With joy.

You're comparing Apples and Oranges here, Paul here was talking about the Church giving funds to Jerusalem, I was talking about the actual internal communal Church system.

I just want to be clear about your message:

are you saying that communal living (having common fund or socialism) is a requirement to be saved, and for discipleship?

 

[winston53660]

So it has been a while since I have done confirmation. I was wondering if anyone has any good material (preferably Internet) to explain the differences? I've always considered Methodists "baptist lite." But I know that may not be adequate. I'm rt just trying to get a good way to explain it.

The difference btwn a Methodist and a Baptist is Methodist can say hello to each other in the liquor store!:lamo

 

[tosca1]

The difference btwn a Methodist and a Baptist is Methodist can say hello to each other in the liquor store!:lamo

:lol:



Seriously, I guess it depends on what kind of Baptist it is. I'm Baptist - I don't think drinking is frowned upon at all, not in our church.

 

[hado117]

:lol:



Seriously, I guess it depends on what kind of Baptist it is. I'm Baptist - I don't think drinking is frowned upon at all, not in our church.

in my church its encouraged

 

[AlbqOwl]

I would say that Methodists are halfway between Episcopalians and Baptists. Their theology is closer to Baptists but their church structure is closer to the Anglicans. Presbyterians have a church structure that is closer to Baptists but a theology that is much different (Calvinism vs Arminianism).

I would also point out that years ago the Methodist Churches were much more fire and brimstone than the Baptists were. The Methodists have mellowed over the past few decades while the Southern and Missionary Baptists have gotten more hardcore.

That has not been my experience. The Methodist used to be a lot more doctrinally grounded ('fundamentalist') than they are now but nowhere near to the extent the Baptists were. Both have mellowed but the Baptists have remained evangelical while the Methodists are more 'mainstream' ecumenically conditioned.

Somewhat off topic but all this reminds me of my youth growing up in a teensy town in "Little Texas" in southeastern New Mexico.

There were five congregations in town. The Roman Catholics built their church right at the edge of town out of the mainstream. But the biggest church, the Baptists, were one block off Main Street in down town and the Methodists, the second largest, were one block north of the Baptists. The Church of Christ (the old fashioned no instrumental music C of C, not the UCC) was two blocks west of the Methodists and Baptists forming a sort of triangle, and the little Presbyterian Church was in the center of that triangle.

First the Methodists installed some nice melodious chimes in their bell tower. The Baptists, not to be outdone, installed a speaker system in their bell tower and started broadcasting popular hymns that competed with the Methodist chimes. The Church of Christ countered with loudspeakers on their roof broadcasting the pastor's sermons and he was one who preached quite loudly. And the poor little Presbyterian Church huddled amidst the racket and din with their windows rattling contemplated moving to the next town. (The town folk got fed up with all that pretty quick and put a stop to it. )

But every church denomination got started because the people thought they could 'do church' better than the other guy, thought they had a purer doctrine, thought they had it more right than everybody else. People stay with the denominations they choose because it is familiar and comfortable to them probably more than it coincides with their personal beliefs.

Personally I don't think it matters a whole bunch what church a body attends--it probably does him or her good whatever it is.

 

[ALiberalModerate]

That has not been my experience. The Methodist used to be a lot more doctrinally grounded ('fundamentalist') than they are now but nowhere near to the extent the Baptists were. Both have mellowed but the Baptists have remained evangelical while the Methodists are more 'mainstream' ecumenically conditioned.
.

My grandparents on my dad's side was both raised Methodist down in Southeastern Arkansas. This is the church they both attended when they were young:

It's the Old Cypress Methodist Church there in Willow, Arkansas. It was built in 1886. They don't hold services there anymore but we always had homecoming out there every year when I was growing up. Much of my family including my grandparents are buried there. At any rate, they always said that when they were young the only churches that were harder core in the south than the Methodist churches were the Pentecostals. From what they said many of the old south Methodist Churches were holiness back then. I think the old school conservative Methodists churches split decades ago and became Nazarene or just Wesleyan. The United Methodist Church isn't very old, it was founded in 1968.

 

[winston53660]

Im third generation in this UMC



Bush 43 is a member.

And they got a fancy dancy website:

Highland Park United Methodist Church | Home

 

[AlbqOwl]

My grandparents on my dad's side was both raised Methodist down in Southeastern Arkansas. This is the church they both attended when they were young:

It's the Old Cypress Methodist Church there in Willow, Arkansas. It was built in 1886. They don't hold services there anymore but we always had homecoming out there every year when I was growing up. Much of my family including my grandparents are buried there. At any rate, they always said that when they were young the only churches that were harder core in the south than the Methodist churches were the Pentecostals. From what they said many of the old south Methodist Churches were holiness back then. I think the old school conservative Methodists churches split decades ago and became Nazarene or just Wesleyan. The United Methodist Church isn't very old, it was founded in 1968.

OMG, I've been there and have seen that church. Small world.

 

[ALiberalModerate]

OMG, I've been there and have seen that church. Small world.

It certainly is then. What in the world were you doing in Dallas County, AR? Nothing there anymore other than dirt roads and deer leases.

 

[AlbqOwl]

It certainly is then. What in the world were you doing in Dallas County, AR? Nothing there anymore other than dirt roads and deer leases.

This was a long, long time ago but if I am remembering right, Willow is about halfway between Texarkana and Little Rock isn't it? And the kinfolk I was traveling with were into historic places, which is probably why the church was pointed out to me. We drove through there to get to somebody's farm to look at a stallion for sale. The horse was not satisfactory as it turned out, but I still remember the side trip.

 

[ALiberalModerate]

This was a long, long time ago but if I am remembering right, Willow is about halfway between Texarkana and Little Rock isn't it? And the kinfolk I was traveling with were into historic places, which is probably why the church was pointed out to me. We drove through there to get to somebody's farm to look at a stallion for sale. The horse was not satisfactory as it turned out, but I still remember the side trip.

Willow is more or less halfway between Texarkana and Little Rock. Definitely off the beaten path though. The roads getting to it are in such bad shape these days that when my Mammaw passed away, the hearse taking her out to that church cemetery out in Willow like to have gotten stuck. I remember we were thinking worse case scenario we were going to have throw her casket in the back of the 4wd truck we was in to get her out there.

Our deer camp was out there too when I was growing up, the Round Hill Hunting Club and Community Center. I don't live down in Arkansas anymore, but my dad still is a member of that club. Tons of deer leases out there because its all International Paper land.

 

[RGacky3]

Sorry, but I believe the Gospel is a gospel of how to live here and now as well as the state of our respective souls, and I believe the Gospel is of a much more practical nature than what you seem to be assigning to it. I believe the Gospel in no way disputed capitalism and in fact supported it as did the Old Testament beginning with the story of Adam and Eve. We can agree to disagree on that.

The Gospel is practical, it's practical in all aspects of life.

And no, nowhere do the scirptures support "capitalism," and InFact over and over and over again it puts forwards principles and commands which conflict With it.

 

[RGacky3]

I just want to be clear about your message:

are you saying that communal living (having common fund or socialism) is a requirement to be saved, and for discipleship?

No, that isn't what I'm saying.

That institution was put there in its time and Place, as was the mosaic code.

My point is from these institutions, (mosaic Law and the christian communal system), as well as Jesus' Message of justice and declaring the jubilee and other principles, as well as the prophets condenmnation of societies where the wealthy prosper and the poor suffer, as well as the warning from Sodom, and other Messages in the bible, we can extract Clear and important principles as to how we, as bible believing Christians, are to approach all aspects of life, marriage, politics, economics, and so on.

When we look at the scriptural approach to economic systems and institutions, we see that what God supports are institutions and systems that prioritize care for the needy, the common good, the welfare of all, and prioritize shared wealth and Resources and he condemns systems and instituions that prioritize profit, wealth accumulation, usury, wealth inequality, and leaving the poor and needy to fend for themeselves.

If this fact doesn't influence the way we view Our modern economic systems and institutions then we arn't letting all of scripture talk to us.

 

[tosca1]

No, that isn't what I'm saying.

That institution was put there in its time and Place, as was the mosaic code.

My point is from these institutions, (mosaic Law and the christian communal system), as well as Jesus' Message of justice and declaring the jubilee and other principles, as well as the prophets condenmnation of societies where the wealthy prosper and the poor suffer, as well as the warning from Sodom, and other Messages in the bible, we can extract Clear and important principles as to how we, as bible believing Christians, are to approach all aspects of life, marriage, politics, economics, and so on.

When we look at the scriptural approach to economic systems and institutions, we see that what God supports are institutions and systems that prioritize care for the needy, the common good, the welfare of all, and prioritize shared wealth and Resources and he condemns systems and instituions that prioritize profit, wealth accumulation, usury, wealth inequality, and leaving the poor and needy to fend for themeselves.

If this fact doesn't influence the way we view Our modern economic systems and institutions then we arn't letting all of scripture talk to us.

I suppose the key word is PRIORITIZE. Although we can't fault entrepreneurs looking at having profits (since it's their livelihood - thus there's no wrong in the Bible aiming to profit. What is abhorrent to God are those merchants who cheated consumers with their weights).

And wealth "inequality" would not necessarily mean that God abhors wealthy men, or that God mandates everyone to be equal, wealth-wise. Wealth "distribution" in the Bible isn't the same kin of wealth distribution that socialists want to impose.

Put that way....I will agree with it.

 

[RGacky3]

I suppose the key word is PRIORITIZE. Although we can't fault entrepreneurs looking at having profits (since it's their livelihood - thus there's no wrong in the Bible aiming to profit. What is abhorrent to God are those merchants who cheated consumers with their weights).

And wealth "inequality" would not necessarily mean that God abhors wealthy men, or that God mandates everyone to be equal, wealth-wise. Wealth "distribution" in the Bible isn't the same kin of wealth distribution that socialists want to impose.

Put that way....I will agree with it.

Yeah, I don't fault People within a system that demands profit maximization to survive for doing what needs to be done to survive.

But I don't support that system.

I have never said, and will never say, and have never implied, that God abhors wealthy men.

Wealth distribution in the bible, was always based not on profit or private property, but on the common good and With the interests of those most in need as the priority.

If you don't like the Word "socialist" (which I Call myself in the broad sense of the Word) because of it's historic implications or becuase of those who Call themselves socialist ... so be it, I dont' care about Words, I care about principles.

 

[AlbqOwl]

The Gospel is practical, it's practical in all aspects of life.

And no, nowhere do the scirptures support "capitalism," and InFact over and over and over again it puts forwards principles and commands which conflict With it.

The scriptures I read suggest or explicitly state that those who earn or legally acquire what they have are entitled to do with it whatever they choose to do with it. Which is pretty much the sum of what capitalism is. Are there consequences for the choices they make? Of course there are. But I can find nothing in the Bible, Old or New Testament, that suggests that capitalism was not the state in which humankind was intended to live.

 

[brothern]

The scriptures I read suggest or explicitly state that those who earn or legally acquire what they have are entitled to do with it whatever they choose to do with it. Which is pretty much the sum of what capitalism is. Are there consequences for the choices they make? Of course there are. But I can find nothing in the Bible, Old or New Testament, that suggests that capitalism was not the state in which humankind was intended to live.

Sounds like someone I know ...

 

[AlbqOwl]

Sounds like someone I know ...

And I think folks would be hard put to post something as non sequitur or irrelevant to my post as that cartoon is.

 

[RGacky3]

The scriptures I read suggest or explicitly state that those who earn or legally acquire what they have are entitled to do with it whatever they choose to do with it. Which is pretty much the sum of what capitalism is. Are there consequences for the choices they make? Of course there are. But I can find nothing in the Bible, Old or New Testament, that suggests that capitalism was not the state in which humankind was intended to live.

In EVERY system those who legally aqure what they have are entitled to it ... that isn't capitalism, that's EVERYTHING, the question is what is the legal framework, what is the system, the bible is Clear on what it thinks about systems where the wealthy prosper and the poor suffer, and it's also Clear about what systems and legal frameworks it supports, which is always communal and egalitarian.