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Message to all fellow Liberals: Please support Terri Schiavo's right to live

Re: Message to all fellow Liberals: Please support Terri Shiavo's right to live

Batman said:
Peace, constant care, grace, and love is offensive to you? .

No, but your post demonstrates none of that, simply religious quackery.



Batman said:
One could say that is all liberal ideology.

I'm no liberal so you can drop the references to that.
 
Re: Message to all fellow Liberals: Please support Terri Shiavo's right to live

Urethra Franklin said:
No, but your post demonstrates none of that, simply religious quackery.





I'm no liberal so you can drop the references to that.
Urethra, this has nothing to do with the topic, but I have been debating economics, and, as usual, the pro-capitalist sites poor economic progress and policy in Europe. Perhaps you could chip in with your opinion? How is the EU doing, because everything I've heard is that the EU is now more powerful an economic force than the USA?
 
Re: Message to all fellow Liberals: Please support Terri Shiavo's right to live

anomaly said:
How is the EU doing, because everything I've heard is that the EU is now more powerful an economic force than the USA?

Well I'm no economist, but that doesn't surprise me.
The Euro is stable (strong against your dollar) and has done remarkably well for such a young currency.
Member states experienced variable levels of growth last year (where I live, France, 2.4%). Of course problems exist, notably unemployment (around 10% in France and Spain, but extremely low in some member states such as the UK).
I generally have a problem with statistics and standard econommic measures, since they tell us very little about the life of the people as it's actually lived. For example, the USA is theortically the worlds largest economy by various measures, but what does that actually mean to the unemployed black in south central LA with no health insurance? Very little. What I would say about the EU is that we enjoy a good standard of living, more evenly spread across the population, with less of the extremes of obscene wealth and real poverty that you have in the USA. Food, accomodation and the basics of life are affordable, with good safety nets for the poorest. Taxation is high in many member states, but most realise the necessity of this to fund our generous health and social programmes (community before individual - a major difference to US society). Education and health care for all are taken for granted as basic rights. The mood is generally optimistic, and the absoption of our new member states hasn't caused the end of the world as some sceptics predicted. Those of us in the richer nations are prepared to scarifice a little to help our poorer neighbours reach our level of development (as happened with Ireland, Spain and Portugal) - which is one of the great things to me about the European ideal, which I believe will promote peace and security in the region, and mutual economic benefit in the long term.

Of course it's not all rosy in the garden. Disagreements in the new constitiution need to be ironed out before ratification, and that may not be an easy ride, but we'll get there just as we did with the Maastricht and Nice treaties. Persuading the UK to join the eurozone when their own currency and economy are so strong will be another hard battle, but I believe we'll get there. In short, I believe the EU will be a strong economic force, strong enough to deal with the challenges we'll face by the growing Asian economies of India, and notably China, who are undoubtedly going to lead the world economically. I believe we'll be far better placed to compete with these new forces than the USA, which frankly, has had its day.
 
Re: Message to all fellow Liberals: Please support Terri Shiavo's right to live

Urethra Franklin said:
Well I'm no economist, but that doesn't surprise me.
The Euro is stable (strong against your dollar) and has done remarkably well for such a young currency.
Member states experienced variable levels of growth last year (where I live, France, 2.4%). Of course problems exist, notably unemployment (around 10% in France and Spain, but extremely low in some member states such as the UK).
I generally have a problem with statistics and standard econommic measures, since they tell us very little about the life of the people as it's actually lived. For example, the USA is theortically the worlds largest economy by various measures, but what does that actually mean to the unemployed black in south central LA with no health insurance? Very little. What I would say about the EU is that we enjoy a good standard of living, more evenly spread across the population, with less of the extremes of obscene wealth and real poverty that you have in the USA. Food, accomodation and the basics of life are affordable, with good safety nets for the poorest. Taxation is high in many member states, but most realise the necessity of this to fund our generous health and social programmes (community before individual - a major difference to US society). Education and health care for all are taken for granted as basic rights. The mood is generally optimistic, and the absoption of our new member states hasn't caused the end of the world as some sceptics predicted. Those of us in the richer nations are prepared to scarifice a little to help our poorer neighbours reach our level of development (as happened with Ireland, Spain and Portugal) - which is one of the great things to me about the European ideal, which I believe will promote peace and security in the region, and mutual economic benefit in the long term.

Of course it's not all rosy in the garden. Disagreements in the new constitiution need to be ironed out before ratification, and that may not be an easy ride, but we'll get there just as we did with the Maastricht and Nice treaties. Persuading the UK to join the eurozone when their own currency and economy are so strong will be another hard battle, but I believe we'll get there. In short, I believe the EU will be a strong economic force, strong enough to deal with the challenges we'll face by the growing Asian economies of India, and notably China, who are undoubtedly going to lead the world economically. I believe we'll be far better placed to compete with these new forces than the USA, which frankly, has had its day.

Dear Urethra - you have made a very nice analysis of the situation. China (and i think India) already have close relationship with Europe. You always hear about USA worried that Asia is "stealing" their jobs etc but seems Europe thinks in a different way. As China becomes dominant power in the world the i think USA will find it is frozen out of world stage. India and China have historical links to Europe through colonial ties and though we view colonial days as dark times, the link with Europe still exists. I know USA has links with Europe through immigration etc but the general feel of USA is that it is isolationist country.
 
Re: Message to all fellow Liberals: Please support Terri Shiavo's right to live

Urethra Franklin said:
Well I'm no economist, but that doesn't surprise me.
The Euro is stable (strong against your dollar) and has done remarkably well for such a young currency.
Member states experienced variable levels of growth last year (where I live, France, 2.4%). Of course problems exist, notably unemployment (around 10% in France and Spain, but extremely low in some member states such as the UK).
I generally have a problem with statistics and standard econommic measures, since they tell us very little about the life of the people as it's actually lived. For example, the USA is theortically the worlds largest economy by various measures, but what does that actually mean to the unemployed black in south central LA with no health insurance? Very little. What I would say about the EU is that we enjoy a good standard of living, more evenly spread across the population, with less of the extremes of obscene wealth and real poverty that you have in the USA. Food, accomodation and the basics of life are affordable, with good safety nets for the poorest. Taxation is high in many member states, but most realise the necessity of this to fund our generous health and social programmes (community before individual - a major difference to US society). Education and health care for all are taken for granted as basic rights. The mood is generally optimistic, and the absoption of our new member states hasn't caused the end of the world as some sceptics predicted. Those of us in the richer nations are prepared to scarifice a little to help our poorer neighbours reach our level of development (as happened with Ireland, Spain and Portugal) - which is one of the great things to me about the European ideal, which I believe will promote peace and security in the region, and mutual economic benefit in the long term.

Of course it's not all rosy in the garden. Disagreements in the new constitiution need to be ironed out before ratification, and that may not be an easy ride, but we'll get there just as we did with the Maastricht and Nice treaties. Persuading the UK to join the eurozone when their own currency and economy are so strong will be another hard battle, but I believe we'll get there. In short, I believe the EU will be a strong economic force, strong enough to deal with the challenges we'll face by the growing Asian economies of India, and notably China, who are undoubtedly going to lead the world economically. I believe we'll be far better placed to compete with these new forces than the USA, which frankly, has had its day.
Overall, great writing. I do have a problem with it when conservatives tell me, 'well, the US economy is growing faster than Europe's'. First off, this isn't true, since by all accounts the EU's economy, as a whole, is doing quite well, perhaps as well or even a little better than that of the USA. I share your hatred for 'statistics' for 'economic success'. Success for whom? In the USA, during the Reagan-Bush-Clinton-Bush years, the rich have done remarkably well, while the poverty level remains constant, social programs are being underfunded, the minimum wage cannot keep up with inflation, neither can many worker's salaries, especially blue collar workers, the middle class is dissolving, inequality is the highest since the twenties, yet every single conservative I've so far spoken to says it doesn't matter. Does anyone realize that taxes on the rich have progressively decreased since WW2? Does anyone realize that the SS tax is now a regressive tax, with the poor paying a larger percentage of their income into it than the very rich (the rich often end up paying at a rate of around 1%, while the poor, or anyone whose salary is under $90,000 pays 6.2%)? Does anyone even care that inequality is as high now in the US as it is in some laissez-faire Latin American countries? Wealth is a relative measure. And using this relativity, we see that the poor have gotten much, much poorer since the 70s (salaries growing at best by 5%) while the rich have seen a boom (their salaries have grown by as much as 70%). It's as if, now in the USA, if the rich are doing well, than so is the rest of the country. That is obviously false, but so, so many believe it. But, Urethra, do not be so quick to pass off the USA as hopeless. Once the patriotism settles from 9/11, class counscienceness will again arise in the USA, and perhaps we can head into the direction of socialism rather than unrestricted capitalism.
 
Re: Message to all fellow Liberals: Please support Terri Shiavo's right to live

anomaly said:
But, Urethra, do not be so quick to pass off the USA as hopeless. Once the patriotism settles from 9/11, class counscienceness will again arise in the USA, and perhaps we can head into the direction of socialism rather than unrestricted capitalism.


I sincerely hope you're right anomaly, but sadly I'm afraid that my impression of the average US citizen is that they'd be too easily swayed away from political agitation into pursuing the American Dream. Why protest for social justice when you can go on TV to try and win American Idol.
 
Urethra Franklin said:
This is certainly a tough decision for any judge. I mean, if this woman's in what they call a persistant vegetative state, just how do you distinguish THAT from the average Republican? :confused:

I'm disappointed in you, Urethra. It's easy:

The average Republican can spout BS through its facial orifice whilst a person in PVS cannot talk at all!
 
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