Merkel says German multiculturalism has failed

[Manc Skipper]

Hell yes! Catholic terrorists might disguise themselves as nuns!

 

[j-mac]

The Quran says women should wear the hijab. If a devout Muslim woman believes she should wear the hijab then it is no different from a nun wearing a habit. Are nuns oppressed? Should we force nuns to stop wearing habits?

Vatican II already addressed that I thought....


j-mac

 

[Grant]

Orion

What are "traditional rights", exactly?

You genuinely do not know??

If you are sincere then there is little need to continue this conversation.

There is no difference between our stated rights now and what they were 40 years ago;

And what is that difference?

the only difference is that they are now being encroached upon and immigrants are not the source.

In fact recently arrived Muslims have sued over not only our traditional rights of publishing opinions, but facts also. It cost tens of thousands for Canadians to defend themselves in court. And although they were naturally found "not guilty"" it is the process that is the punishment.

Militant immigration? That is simply non-sense

.

No, it is not. And in fact you can ask some of the immigrants themselves.

If immigrants are using the system that's already in place to enforce Canadian laws, then I say good.

Not if the law is used is being used to stifle opinion, free speech and works only in one direction.

Hate speech is part of that, unlike in the U.S.

And who defines "hate speech"? Do you know?

Your attitude is pretty typical... that the immigrants are taking over. They're not.

If my attitude is "typical" then there might be some truth to what I say, but of course I never said they were "taking over". That is your fabrication.

Immigrants have zero power in this country.

That is untrue.

Even most professionals who went to school for 10+ years in their country of origin to become doctors, lawyers, engineers, etc. move here and we make it virtually impossible for them to resume their lives. We keep them at the bottom for the most part and that's the way it's always been. Immigrants have not been part of our "traditional rights" in practice because we treat them as labour to be exploited.

That is an absolute falsehood.

What European trap? The only thing happening to Europe right now is the result of their own immigration policies backfiring in their faces.

Exactly.

Most European nations are not meeting replacement in their populations; they need foreign labour to make ends meet, but they don't want to give immigrants a say in their society. In other words, they want to have their cake and eat it too.

Take that up with Europeans.

That is Europe's history and legacy... a bunch of bourgeois whose palace is built on the back of the rest of the world. I don't have much sympathy for nations that are now experiencing sectarian violence or rebellions within their cultural enclaves which they helped create. The systems there only make token attempts to integrate these people.

LOL!! Recently graduated, huh?

The western world has been in stagnant decay since the end of the Cold War, the U.S. being the exception until the past 15 years or so, and that's only because its foreign policy has guaranteed it access to what it needs to survive.

A you quoting from a school textbook? Do you have an original thought in your head?

Can you come up with a sound, rational and intellectual rebuttal without all of these meaningless platitudes about how defective my arguments are?

I rather doubt it. Say something that evolves from your own world experience and we can give it a go. But that seems unlikely.

I have a university education on these issues but more importantly I have spent more time in "developing" nations (a trite terminology) than you have, so please take your assumptions and shove it.

In fact I'm writing this from a "developing" nation

Democracies in North America were formed by people who came from parts of the world where people and resources were being exploited for the sake of luxury; they brought those same practices here and then revised the history to make us feel good and happy about it. Fact is, we did not build our own cities; we imported de facto slaves and indentured servants to do it. That's not my opinion, that's just the way it is. We have only recently started to emerge from an era where human exploitation was common and a fact of life.

Perhaps you can offer some stats to support this theory of yours. Something related to reality.

You can't talk about Canada without talking about the rest of the western world. Canada is an apple that fell from the same tree as the United States and all of the other colonies of the west.

Your university education is serving you well.

I'm not glossing over the fact that many people were able to arrive here and make a new live for themselves that was comparatively better than where they came from; but you can't take that and say that no exploitation happened. You can't deny that there were serious and wide inequities that remained for a long, long time and in many ways they remain to do this day. It was widespread and endemic. The western world has been at war for centuries with all corners of the globe in order to procure cheap labour and luxury goods: coffee, sugar, tea, chocolate, soy. You have no idea how many people have died at the hands of our governments just so that we can live in the lap of excess.

It's a little dreary listening to these rants of yours without having some supportive evidence.

What I know is that governments use immigrants as a scapegoat to divert the public from their own domestic policy failures. Look at the economy right now... it sucks. The banking system is the #1 enemy of the western world right now but people wouldn't know it because they are too busy arguing over if Muslims are evil or not. The "war on terror" was the latest distortion so that the west can enter the middle east and free up capital for their own uses. So you tell me what our "real" problems are and keep touting that immigrants are the source because that line has been used over and over in history ad nauseum.

Were you actually born and raised in Canada?

I don't read textbooks. Most of the tripe in those is made up by the people in power and it only serves to indoctrinate young people into this "we're the best" mentality when it's a total lie. The truth of our nations is that anything and everything happens under our governments. The rules we hold so dear are torn to shreds behind the scenes and they simply don't care.

But you have a plan to make it all better, right?

If you don't even know the basic information about how our cities were built and the human suffering that that entailed, then I cannot help you. It's hardly subjective content. It's pretty established in academic circles.

I'm sure it is.

I'm not talking about recent arrivals. Do you know what first generation means? It means you were born from immigrant parents but you yourself are a native citizen of the country your are born. Look at the cultural makeup of your government. I can promise you that it's mostly the power of the aristocracy: the power of white.

And you are not white, I assume.

No thanks. I'm not going to do your work for you. If you can't even trust that I know what I'm talking about from years of study and travel, then what some other academic says is not going to matter all that much to you. I'm not really going to dig up my 4th year graduate work to satisfy someone who is in such deep denial about reality.

And don't think for a moment it's not appreciated!

 

[Grant]

Laila

I love how this rise of worry about Muslim women coincides with the dislike of the religion.

Do you? Do you also love the way it coincides with honour killings, stoning adulterers, marrying children, banning other religions, murdering schoolgirls, hanging teenage Gays from lampposts, the stifling of free speech, and of course committing international terrorism? Do you love all of that as well?

Don't bother pretending you or anyone else care about Muslim women's right in the West or anywhere else in the world.

Someone has to care and in fact many brave Muslim women are now speaking out. While requiring 24 hour guard of course.

Hell your country single handedly has done more to ruin it than anyone else by its support of Royals and dictatorships

Ruin what? Women's rights? If so, let's correct it now.

Oh and lol @ comparing it to Slavery. Seriously. LOL

It is one part slavery and two parts ignorance.

 

[Grant]

So....

A right wing german claims says that Multiculturalism has failed. That immigrants are "not welcome"...

And some of you in this thread are having a bukkake session over this, claiming that she's absolutely right...

Since when did

A: The conservatives who support her claims in this thread, start listening to right wing germans.
B; The conservatives who support her claims in this thread, start listening to the leader of a "socialist" nation

Doesn't the opinion of the leader of the German people carry some weight?

Which German leader defines public opinion to you?

 

[Councilman]

If you do not want to be a German don't move to Germany.

If you don't want to Be an American don't break the law and come here DAMN IT!

There are places in the Los Angeles area where if you don't speak Mexican you can't talk with the person behind the counter at the local 7-11. I didn't believe it until i say it for myself.

 

[Grant]

Demon of Light

The Quran says women should wear the hijab.

You read that in the Koran??

I don't think so. You just made that up, right?

 

[The Prof]

i don't know about deutschland, but here in amerika race relations under this post-racial poser have plummeted

Voters Are Much Less Optimistic About Black-White Relations - Rasmussen Reports™

only 36% of americans say today that black-white relations are improving, down 26 points since summer, 09, when 62% were optimistic

27% today say the racial divide in the land of the free is widening, up from 10% a year and a half ago

only 13% of of african americans are affirmative

a mere 21% of our fellows feel that white-hispanic affairs are improving, down 19 points since last december

50% today say hispanic-caucasian attitudes are hardening

 

[Justin Beiber]

Africa for the Africans, Asia for the Asians, White countries for EVERYONE!

White people are supposed to accept that they have no right to pursue their own political, cultural, and economic interests. Whites are told they must live according to the rules of “individualism” while everybody else (Blacks, Hispanics, Jews, Muslims, Asians, etc) are free to live by tribal rule-sets.

Whites are blamed for every evil in history, but then, if they attempt to defend themselves from this accusation, are told that Whites (as a people) don’t even exist.

To atone for their evil history, Whites must celebrate their own demise (“diversity is strength”) and accept mass immigration from the “developing world” into White countries and only White counties. Whites must then “assimilate” these immigrants into their communities, schools, work places, churches, and genetic material.

What this is Genocide by forced assimilation.


“...any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

– Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, Article II”


Of course, anyone who opposes this program of genocide by forced assimilation is a “racist,” and therefore ANAZIWHOWANTSTOKILLSIXMILLIONJEWS.

The people who call Whites “racist” claim they are “anti-racist.”

What they are is anti-White.

“Anti-racism” is a code for anti-White.

 

[Demon of Light]

Demon of Light




You read that in the Koran??

I don't think so. You just made that up, right?

Actually, the word hijab is only used to refer to a veil that covered the faces of the wives of Muhammad. Other words are use to refer to garments covering women, though it seems a little unclear exactly what is asked. The Quran never seems to say exactly how much a woman should be covered, though the hadith seem to say only the eyes should be uncovered.

There is no indication it was required, however.

 

[Orion]

I ignored the dogmatism , yes. I prefer expressions of original thought.

Yep -- support the burka or you don't like Muslims! That is SO deep, and so indicative of an extensive education.

I'll reply to your other post later, but first I want you to resolve this otherwise I won't bother.

Can you please explain what dogma I am expressing? AFAIK, that was an original thought that came from my own head.

Please tell me how forcing women to remove their burkas against their will is empowering their choices in the free world? How is it NOT anti-feminist? To put it differently, how is it any different than looking down on modern women who decide to be housewives, given the other choices that they could make as "free" women?

I didn't say "support the burka or you don't like Muslims", that is your own distortion. I am saying that the media hype around Islam as of the war on terror has created large numbers of pseudo-experts on Islam who think they have the background and education to decide what is best for Muslim women to wear. If this matter was so pertinent, people would have been speaking out against burkas in the western world 50 years ago when the western feminist movements were in full swing.

 

[Gardener]

I'll reply to your other post later, but first I want you to resolve this otherwise I won't bother.

Can you please explain what dogma I am expressing? AFAIK, that was an original thought that came from my own head.

Please tell me how forcing women to remove their burkas against their will is empowering their choices in the free world? How is it NOT anti-feminist? To put it differently, how is it any different than looking down on modern women who decide to be housewives, given the other choices that they could make as "free" women?

I didn't say "support the burka or you don't like Muslims", that is your own distortion. I am saying that the media hype around Islam as of the war on terror has created large numbers of pseudo-experts on Islam who think they have the background and education to decide what is best for Muslim women to wear. If this matter was so pertinent, people would have been speaking out against burkas in the western world 50 years ago when the western feminist movements were in full swing.

Just look at all those "feminists", orion. Impressive, huh?

What you fail to understand is that even as you try to denigrate the educational level of those who do not indulge in your twisted sophistry of claiming the systematic degradation of women is actually some sort of system of empowerment, is that 50 years ago, the use of the burka was far less prevalent than it is today, and the segregation of the sexes was also far less prevalent. You are just so eager to support the most regressive elements in order to pursue your dogmatic position that you display you don't know a thing about that which you speak. The use of the Burka is INCREASING along with the virulence of the conservatism, and 50 years ago it was unknown in Europe, and isolated elsewhere.

You have created quite the dichotomy here, and I have simply boiled it down to simpler terms. You have insulted the educational level of those who do not share in your lockstep orthodoxy, and have promoted the viewpoint that the systematic oppression of women is actually some sort of feminism. Anybody who disagrees is therefore uneducated.

Orwell must be rolling in his grave.

 

[Erod]

At the current pace, Germany will be a predominantly middle eastern Muslim country in 20 years. Is that what they had in mind?

These sects, and we've witnessed it in the U.S., more often than not have no interest in blending into the new culture they. They have no interest in learning the language, understanding the origin of their new country's laws or history, nothing.

As is occurring throughout Europe, their goal is to build their population to the point that they become the majority in power. That's what Merkel is saying. The same thing is happening in England, France, and other European countries. And with the significant presence of radical Islamic cells within those borders, their is a growing fear to confront this issue. A mere cartoon can get you and your family killed.

Take Texas for instance. We typically rank poorly in education, not because we don't have good schools... we do. However, we have a very large contingent of Hispanic students from across the border that bring test scores way down because they don't speak English at all. And the concern is, there is no push for them to learn in their communities. It is estimated that Hispanics will be the majority in Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and California within 25 years. Many don't feel they need to learn English because eventually it will be the second language to Spanish anyway.

Meanwhile, we fiddle like Nero. Merkel is basically saying that, if something isn't done soon, Germany will not be Germanic anymore....soon.

 

[zimmer]

So don't buy it. It doesn't make it any less of a fact. Germany is not alone in this. Switzerland has the same problem. 20% of our population are foreigners, many of them 2nd even 3rd generation who STILL are made to feel like they don't belong. Not just that, but the path to citizenship is long, expensive and very demanding.

3.5 million Turks and more coming... and have been coming for 50-years. Yet, integration is a problem. Doesn't matter if Germans haven't been the most welcoming. What's the best way to solve the problem? Integrate. Instead they seek Sharia Law, and mob the cops when there's a dispute.

I can understand why foreigners in Switzerland have problems. Who the hell can understand Schweizerdeutsch?

Well, duh. That's usually why people immigrate.

Swedish immigration problem was due to taking droves of folks from the Balkans.

They were given work permits and then residency permits, and all the while obtaining actual citizenship remained long, expensive and complicated and was never encouraged.

Life in these countries is expensive, complicated... but somehow they manage.

Only recently was the law changed where foreign kids born in Germany can get citizenship when they reach their 23rd birthday, provided they actually ASK for it and their parents were residents for 5 to 8 years when the kid was born.

And?

The 2nd and 3rd generations are integrated up to a point.

May I introduce you to Berlin.

"Ausländer" are treated like second class citizens and citizenship is not given to just anybody who asks. Being Swiss is considered a privilege and you need to prove that you are 100% integrated in every way before they even give you chance.

Integrate then! The second generation will have the benefit of living in the culture, assimilating, and lacking an akzent. Or are you saying the Swiss are actually racists?

.

 

[Demon of Light]

At the current pace, Germany will be a predominantly middle eastern Muslim country in 20 years. Is that what they had in mind?

These sects, and we've witnessed it in the U.S., more often than not have no interest in blending into the new culture they. They have no interest in learning the language, understanding the origin of their new country's laws or history, nothing.

As is occurring throughout Europe, their goal is to build their population to the point that they become the majority in power. That's what Merkel is saying. The same thing is happening in England, France, and other European countries. And with the significant presence of radical Islamic cells within those borders, their is a growing fear to confront this issue. A mere cartoon can get you and your family killed.

Take Texas for instance. We typically rank poorly in education, not because we don't have good schools... we do. However, we have a very large contingent of Hispanic students from across the border that bring test scores way down because they don't speak English at all. And the concern is, there is no push for them to learn in their communities. It is estimated that Hispanics will be the majority in Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and California within 25 years. Many don't feel they need to learn English because eventually it will be the second language to Spanish anyway.

Meanwhile, we fiddle like Nero. Merkel is basically saying that, if something isn't done soon, Germany will not be Germanic anymore....soon.

Alarmist much? Here:

snopes.com: Muslim Demographics

 

[Laila]

Orwell must be rolling in his grave.

I'm sure Emily Pankhurst is rolling in her grave. I wonder what her reaction would be to the fact in 21st Century Men are trying to tell Women what is acceptable or not to wear which is exactly what you are trying to do.

:roll:

Don't bring up feminist argument. You'll lose.

 

[Urethra Franklin]

It also shows that the US as a whole is alot more immigrant friendly than people realize.

Just a shame you took so long to treat your own people decently if they weren't the right colour. We Europeans were mixing with and marrying blacks when you were still making them go to the back of the bus.

 

[Cold Highway]

Just a shame you took so long to treat your own people decently if they weren't the right colour. We Europeans were mixing with and marrying blacks when you were still making them go to the back of the bus.

Im Hispanic so dont give me that dribble.

 

[Orion]

Just look at all those "feminists", orion. Impressive, huh?

What you fail to understand is that even as you try to denigrate the educational level of those who do not indulge in your twisted sophistry of claiming the systematic degradation of women is actually some sort of system of empowerment, is that 50 years ago, the use of the burka was far less prevalent than it is today, and the segregation of the sexes was also far less prevalent. You are just so eager to support the most regressive elements in order to pursue your dogmatic position that you display you don't know a thing about that which you speak. The use of the Burka is INCREASING along with the virulence of the conservatism, and 50 years ago it was unknown in Europe, and isolated elsewhere.

You have created quite the dichotomy here, and I have simply boiled it down to simpler terms. You have insulted the educational level of those who do not share in your lockstep orthodoxy, and have promoted the viewpoint that the systematic oppression of women is actually some sort of feminism. Anybody who disagrees is therefore uneducated.

Orwell must be rolling in his grave.

I'm not saying that the women in burkas are feminists per se, though there are undoubtedly some among them who are. I am saying that it is the western feminists who are attacking these women and forcing them to remove the burka that are going against their own feminist values, and the politics around the war on terror is what's enabling them to behave this way. It's not empowerment if the women are being forced to remove the burka... you cannot sidestep this fact. It has nothing to do with "freeing" the women but about asserting cultural superiority: i.e. we think wearing burkas is wrong and so we won't let these women wear them in our society.

If this was about liberation and freedom, they would still be allowed to wear them and to remove them at their own discretion. You can't call a dog a cat and expect it to stick. This is not granting freedom but imposing a restriction on it. The fact that you state it as a value of fighting the spread of conservativism only proves further that this is about placing restrictions as a mode of fighting the perceived spread of Islam, and not about freedom itself. If this were about freedom, then all of Europe could convert to Islam for all we care, since people have the empowered choice to do so.

Guess what? That picture you posted? Women in that country don't have the freedom to choose either. They aren't allowed to remove the burka. It is just the other side of coin where we are not allowing them to wear it.

 

[Grant]

Erod

At the current pace, Germany will be a predominantly middle eastern Muslim country in 20 years. Is that what they had in mind?

That's certainly what many Muslim leaders had in mind.

These sects, and we've witnessed it in the U.S., more often than not have no interest in blending into the new culture they. They have no interest in learning the language, understanding the origin of their new country's laws or history, nothing.

And from their point of view, why should they? They already have their beliefs, customs and ways of life that are often deeply entrenched. What's happening is that the democracies are adapting to Islam. So far, they appear to be the stronger horse.

As is occurring throughout Europe, their goal is to build their population to the point that they become the majority in power. That's what Merkel is saying. The same thing is happening in England, France, and other European countries. And with the significant presence of radical Islamic cells within those borders, their is a growing fear to confront this issue. A mere cartoon can get you and your family killed.

They have really and seriously outsmarted the democracies. They have learned from the Chinese in Tibet. All the military might in the world will not save you from soft social policies and demographics.

Take Texas for instance. We typically rank poorly in education, not because we don't have good schools... we do. However, we have a very large contingent of Hispanic students from across the border that bring test scores way down because they don't speak English at all. And the concern is, there is no push for them to learn in their communities. It is estimated that Hispanics will be the majority in Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and California within 25 years. Many don't feel they need to learn English because eventually it will be the second language to Spanish anyway.

They may believe that but they are wrong. English speakers will still dominate the power positions and the smart Hispanics know that. The others will remain ghettoized and remain be political fodder.

Meanwhile, we fiddle like Nero. Merkel is basically saying that, if something isn't done soon, Germany will not be Germanic anymore....soon.

I believe its already too late.

 

[Grant]

I'm not saying that the women in burkas are feminists per se, though there are undoubtedly some among them who are. I am saying that it is the western feminists who are attacking these women and forcing them to remove the burka that are going against their own feminist values, and the politics around the war on terror is what's enabling them to behave this way. It's not empowerment if the women are being forced to remove the burka... you cannot sidestep this fact. It has nothing to do with "freeing" the women but about asserting cultural superiority: i.e. we think wearing burkas is wrong and so we won't let these women wear them in our society.

If this was about liberation and freedom, they would still be allowed to wear them and to remove them at their own discretion. You can't call a dog a cat and expect it to stick. This is not granting freedom but imposing a restriction on it. The fact that you state it as a value of fighting the spread of conservativism only proves further that this is about placing restrictions as a mode of fighting the perceived spread of Islam, and not about freedom itself. If this were about freedom, then all of Europe could convert to Islam for all we care, since people have the empowered choice to do so.

Guess what? That picture you posted? Women in that country don't have the freedom to choose either. They aren't allowed to remove the burka. It is just the other side of coin where we are not allowing them to wear it.

Look at that photo again, for crying out loud! Would you wear such garb if you didn't have too??

Women are being beaten on the streets, arrested in some areas, if they don't wear it.

What sick minds there are out there!!

 

[Laila]

Look at that photo again, for crying out loud! Would you wear such garb if you didn't have too??

In Saudi Arabia yes it is compulsory.

Not in the West so many who do wear it choose to wear a burqa

 

[Laila]

Guess what? That picture you posted? Women in that country don't have the freedom to choose either. They aren't allowed to remove the burka. It is just the other side of coin where we are not allowing them to wear it.

France: Giving women their freedom by taking away their freedom. :/

 

[Demon of Light]

Look at that photo again, for crying out loud! Would you wear such garb if you didn't have too??

Only if it was cold out.

 

[Arcana XV]

3.5 million Turks and more coming... and have been coming for 50-years. Yet, integration is a problem. Doesn't matter if Germans haven't been the most welcoming. What's the best way to solve the problem? Integrate. Instead they seek Sharia Law, and mob the cops when there's a dispute.

I can understand why foreigners in Switzerland have problems. Who the hell can understand Schweizerdeutsch?


Swedish immigration problem was due to taking droves of folks from the Balkans.

Life in these countries is expensive, complicated... but somehow they manage.

And?

May I introduce you to Berlin.

Integrate then! The second generation will have the benefit of living in the culture, assimilating, and lacking an akzent. Or are you saying the Swiss are actually racists?

.

You keep saying "integrate!!!" as if that is the solution to the problem. It's not. You have to understand that subsequent generations of immigrants, the ones who are born and raised in Germany, are quite well integrated. They speak without an accent, they are immersed in the local culture. Yet that is STILL not enough for them to be considered equalsto "real Germans".

This is not specific to Germany. It happens all over Western Europe to some degree or another. Even in France or Switzerland, where immigrants are pretty much forced to integrate and learn the language if they want to be able to function in society at all, they're still considered "étrangers", "Ausländer", guest workers the natives put up with because they do the jobs no one else wants to do. Immigrants who make the effort to fully integrate into their new country are STILL not accepted. It's still not good enough. Do you have any idea how damaging that is?

Many immigrants do their part and assimilate completely. It's time governments start doing their part too and help them with the integration process and simplify the path to citizenship as much as possible, instead of making it harder or next to impossible as is still too often the case. It works both ways. There has to be some give and take or it's never going to work. We'll end up with frustrated and dejected youths, just like the young French Muslims, who are made to feel like second class citizens in their own freaking country.