Megachurches Vs. The U.S.A.

[Hatuey]

Megachurches. A threat to this country?

I saw a documentary on how the decisions the members of some of these "churches" affect pretty much everything that has to do with U.S. politics. The fact that the "reverends" and "pastors" all have politically based agendas and can manipulate the votes of their flocks is pretty scary so I was wondering what your thoughts on these religious groups were.

 

[Edify_Always_In_All_Ways]

The Church(es) has been powerful forever, but trying to stop it is impossible- the pastors are simply good speakers, which are hard to ban, armed with brainwashing, which is hard to prove. Any method of stopping them would involve quietly phasing religion out of public life.

As a side note, have you ever read Stranger In A Strange Land? It is a sci-fi novel that features a happy-go-lucky, everything can be apologized for, superchristian religion that uses riots and mobs to slowly take over the world. A good read.

 

[jallman]

We have a separation between Church and State. That much cannot be disputed with any intellectual honesty. The Churches expect the State to honor that agreement yet it seems that the Churches don't believe that they should stay out of the affairs of politics. The solution, to me, is simple. Churches have tax exempt status. If they want to maintain that tax exemption and remain categorized as a Church, then their pulpits cannot be used as a political podium. Violation of this immediately and irrevocably ends their tax exemption.

 

[Just Me 2]

We have a separation between Church and State. That much cannot be disputed with any intellectual honesty. The Churches expect the State to honor that agreement yet it seems that the Churches don't believe that they should stay out of the affairs of politics. The solution, to me, is simple. Churches have tax exempt status. If they want to maintain that tax exemption and remain categorized as a Church, then their pulpits cannot be used as a political podium. Violation of this immediately and irrevocably ends their tax exemption.

Would that not imped on a little thing called freedom of speech? Everyone that is in a Church is there because they want to be so why should the reverends not be able to speck about what they believe to be morally right even in regards to politics?

 

[Flea]

Originally Posted by Edify_Always_In_All_Ways
As a side note, have you ever read Stranger In A Strange Land? It is a sci-fi novel that features a happy-go-lucky, everything can be apologized for, superchristian religion that uses riots and mobs to slowly take over the world. A good read.

A great book and along with Brave New World, 1984, Fahrenheit 451 and some other make up my favorite books.

 

[jallman]

Would that not imped on a little thing called freedom of speech? Everyone that is in a Church is there because they want to be so why should the reverends not be able to speck about what they believe to be morally right even in regards to politics?

They receive their tax exempt status based on their function as a Church, not a campaign organization or lobby group. If they are acting as something other than a Church, then they are more than free to continue speaking, but their tax exemption as a Church should be stripped. No violation of freedom of speech there as far as I can tell...

 

[Just Me 2]

They receive their tax exempt status based on their function as a Church, not a campaign organization or lobby group. If they are acting as something other than a Church, then they are more than free to continue speaking, but their tax exemption as a Church should be stripped. No violation of freedom of speech there as far as I can tell...

Ok so what would you consider breeching that tax-exempt status? If a reverend tells his congregation that Mr. Jones and (Mr. Jones is running for office) is for abortion is that wrong? Is that not allowed?

 

[jallman]

Yeah, Megachurches are SO terrible, like when the Salem megachurch on the south side of Chicago got liquor stores out of neighborhoods ravaged by alcaholism, and their mission outreaches to prostitutes, yeah, I see what you mean. :roll:

Yeah, all Megachurches are SO great, like the People's Temple ministry that ended up with hundreds of members dead in a south american country from being directed by their minister to drink poison Kool-Aid. Yeah, I see what you mean. :roll:

 

[jallman]

Ok so what would you consider breeching that tax-exempt status? If a reverend tells his congregation that Mr. Jones and (Mr. Jones is running for office) is for abortion is that wrong? Is that not allowed?

If he tells his congregation to either vote for or not vote for Mr Jones. Allowing Mr. Jones to use the church congregation hall as a platform for giving politically charged speeches. Allowing Mr. Jones to use the fellowship hall as a campaign headquarters...

 

[talloulou]

We have a separation between Church and State. That much cannot be disputed with any intellectual honesty. The Churches expect the State to honor that agreement yet it seems that the Churches don't believe that they should stay out of the affairs of politics. The solution, to me, is simple. Churches have tax exempt status. If they want to maintain that tax exemption and remain categorized as a Church, then their pulpits cannot be used as a political podium. Violation of this immediately and irrevocably ends their tax exemption.

Churches are not allowed to campaign for particular politicians. There is no law that can stop them from being anti-war, anti-abortion, ect.... As long as they aren't advertising for an exact political candidate they can say whatever they want.

 

[Just Me 2]

Yeah, all Megachurches are SO great, like the People's Temple ministry that ended up with hundreds of members dead in a south american country from being directed by their minister to drink poison Kool-Aid. Yeah, I see what you mean. :roll:

I don't think anyone is saying that ALL Mega churches are good of course there are bad ones just as in anything.

 

[talloulou]

Most of the megachurches cropping up don't bother me as they tend to be of the live and let live variety. Most are non-denominational and so the people filling the seats can have any number of differing beliefs on lifestyle and relligion.

 

[jallman]

I don't think anyone is saying that ALL Mega churches are good of course there are bad ones just as in anything.

And that was the only point I was making. There are some really shady megachurces today that don't even come close to the Jonestown tragedy. I recall the ICC (international churches of christ) and the Crossroads movement...these types of organizations can definitely have a harmful effect on our society.

In truth though, I just used the Jonestown case as an extreme example. I don't believe mega churches are anywhere near that insidious.

 

[Just Me 2]

If he tells his congregation to either vote for or not vote for Mr Jones. Allowing Mr. Jones to use the church congregation hall as a platform for giving politically charged speeches. Allowing Mr. Jones to use the fellowship hall as a campaign headquarters...

So is I'm a reverend of a church I can't tell my congregation if they want to have a pro-life person in office they should vote for Mr. Jones? That is ridiculous. I'm simply telling them the candidate that fits what they want.

 

[Just Me 2]

And that was the only point I was making. There are some really shady megachurces today that don't even come close to the Jonestown tragedy. I recall the ICC (international churches of christ) and the Crossroads movement...these types of organizations can definitely have a harmful effect on our society.

In truth though, I just used the Jonestown case as an extreme example. I don't believe mega churches are anywhere near that insidious.

Thanks for clarifying and I agree that some are nothing but brainwash centers.

 

[jallman]

So is I'm a reverend of a church I can't tell my congregation if they want to have a pro-life person in office they should vote for Mr. Jones? That is ridiculous. I'm simply telling them the candidate that fits what they want.

If you endorse a particular candidate, from the pulpit, then you are no longer acting as a spiritual advisor, but instead, you have become a campaign promoter. That is not acceptable in maintaining the separation between church and state.

Can you state a stance on abortion? Certainly.
Can you state a stance on gay marriage? Certainly
Can you state a stance on any moral/spiritual issue? Certainly

Can you state a stance on campaign finance? No
Can you state a stance on tax reform? No
Can you state a stance on congressional ethics reform? No

See the difference?

 

[jallman]

And as that is a truly generalizable result. On the same note, I heard of a kid who was run over by a drunk driver, when are we gonna shape up and recognize the evil threat that these damn cars represent!

It wasn't the car or the drunk driver...it was the road. Down with the highway systems!!!

 

[Just Me 2]

Can you state a stance on campaign finance? No

Why?

Can you state a stance on tax reform? No

Why?

Can you state a stance on congressional ethics reform? No

Why?

See the difference?

Sorry but no.



Why would I not be able to tell my congregation which candidate also has the same views?

 

[jallman]

Why?
Why?
Why?
Sorry but no.
Why would I not be able to tell my congregation which candidate also has the same views?

What interest is it of the Church what tax reforms are sought? What interest is it of the Church how campaign finance is determined? What interest does the Church have in Congressional ethics oversight? How do these issues relate to spiritual matters?

What is the interest of the Church in endorsing candidates for their congregations except to meddle in the affairs of the State? Stating a stance on moral issues is certainly allowed and even encouraged. Using the pulpit to fill out the ballot for hundreds of people at once is not the role of the Church. If they want to assume that responsibility and power, then they must give up their Church status as they are no longer acting as a Church, but a political machine.

I will even take it one step further...all revenues generated by a Church that gives up their tax exempt status to become a political campaign organization should be credited to the endorsed candidates in terms of their campaign spending.

 

[talloulou]

Why would I not be able to tell my congregation which candidate also has the same views?

The minute you promote a certain person you are campaigning for said person. If you want to do that you pay taxes. So you can, but it'll cost ya. You can tell your congregation how you feel they should feel on issues as long as you aren't supporting or backing certain bills or people. If the congregation is too stupid to figure out which candidates support the things they want than they probably shouldn't be voting anyway.

 

[Just Me 2]

What interest is it of the Church what tax reforms are sought? What interest is it of the Church how campaign finance is determined? What interest does the Church have in Congressional ethics oversight? How do these issues relate to spiritual matters?

What is the interest of the Church in endorsing candidates for their congregations except to meddle in the affairs of the State? Stating a stance on moral issues is certainly allowed and even encouraged. Using the pulpit to fill out the ballot for hundreds of people at once is not the role of the Church. If they want to assume that responsibility and power, then they must give up their Church status as they are no longer acting as a Church, but a political machine.

I will even take it one step further...all revenues generated by a Church that gives up their tax exempt status to become a political campaign organization should be credited to the endorsed candidates in terms of their campaign spending.

I disagree because much of spiritual life transcends to everyday choices. I make may of my everyday decisions based on my faith including my political choices. I agree they should not "tell" anyone who to vote for but to inform them of the candidates stances on issues is not wrong.

 

[Just Me 2]

The minute you promote a certain person you are campaigning for said person. If you want to do that you pay taxes. So you can, but it'll cost ya. You can tell your congregation how you feel they should feel on issues as long as you aren't supporting or backing certain bills or people. If the congregation is too stupid to figure out which candidates support the things they want than they probably shouldn't be voting anyway.

I think there is a miscommunication. I agree they should not tell their congregation who to vote for but I don't see anything wrong with telling them where the candidates stand on issues.

 

[jallman]

I think there is a miscommunication. I agree they should not tell their congregation who to vote for but I don't see anything wrong with telling them where the candidates stand on issues.

Ok...I think I see. If all they are doing is telling where the candidate stands and truthfully relaying that information with no slant or implied endorsement, then certainly, they are free to do that in my opinion.

 

[Just Me 2]

Ok...I think I see. If all they are doing is telling where the candidate stands and truthfully relaying that information with no slant or implied endorsement, then certainly, they are free to do that in my opinion.

See that debate over, I agree also no slant or implied endorsement. Ok so now what can we battle over that was to easy.

 

[jallman]

See that debate over, I agree also no slant or implied endorsement. Ok so now what can we battle over that was to easy.

I like you...

The abortion forum is pretty volatile if you want a good fight LOL