Let us assume that I were a Jeffersonian Christian.
In other words, if I followed the Jefferson Bible. How likely would I be to percieve homosexuality as a sin?
Furthermore, why would his Bible be any less valid than the one that was crafted by ancient religious leaders who were motivated by their own political ambitions?
Homosexuality is a sin. I think that is quite clear in the Bible. On the other hand, everyone is a sinner so it doesn't really serve us to come down on someone for sinning. In an ideal world it should be possible to be a gay Christian for this reason, or even a pastor. He showed some humility when he came out of the closet and it took a lot of guts to do that. I don't particularly like megachurches and half of the stuff they talk about, but I still know what it means to come out... and I'm not even someone who had to come out to my world wide network of peers. My family was hard enough.
I realize we are talking about Christians here, but this still goes back to the idea of homosexuality as being a choice. If Christians could get past that, they would see that the pastor can't control who or what he is, and it shouldn't have a bearing on his good work. But... the whole reason why hate of gays exists is because of religion, and pretty much only religion.
I think avoiding it is supposed to make a person stronger. The more effort you put forth, the closer you will be to God.
Struggling with gay thoughts is one thing, but living openly gay is another.
You probably would not as you have already thrown out all the teachings of the Old Testament and 90% of the New Testament.
It was put together by man, but inspired by God.
I have never been one to worship a book. And frankly that is what people do when they pretend that a book compiled by a bunch of religious leaders who debated what should and should not be in it 1500 years ago is somehow an authority on anything but the politics of that era.
We don't worship any book. We worship God. The book does however give us incite into what God wants and expects.
You have the wrong idea if you think otherwise.
As for the "politics" angle, again you are dead wrong. The Bible is not a book on or about government. It is about our spiritual guidance in this life.
Terrorists were inspired by God to fly planes into the towers and our last president was inspired by God to invade Iraq. Inspiration from God seems to coincide quite nicely with political ambition.
They are free to claim such, does not necessarily make it true. The Bible teaches that either one was wrong, so logic dictates they were not inspired by God. It is pretty simple.
Oh does it now? Which of the hundreds of translations and versions of this book has that exactly right?
My idea is that people are often motivated by money and power and selling a book said to be inspired by an invisible and silent supernatural deity and orchestrasting a church around it, seems to coincide nicely with those motivations.
ROFL! Yup,establshing a paternal hierachy and declaring certain groups of people the "chosen ones" is certainly not political, it is about good ol' spiritual guidance. :roll:
I've always found this term "struggling" with gay thoughts to be funny. It is amazingly arroagant to assume that people are fighting against who they are simply because you do not their behavior.
Yes, the book compiled of books written by politcialy motivated people and editted by politically motivated people and translated and published by politically motivated people, all of whom say they were "inspired by God" stands above any other peron's claim that their actions were truly inspired by God. It makes perfect logical sense.
It is amazing isn't it? Through all those translations etc. he morals of it's teachings stay exactly the same.
In the case of the original authors of the different books of the Bible, they had literally nothing to gain, this does not fit. In the case of Jesus, he taught us that material things are not the way.
Of course people have done evil in the name of God, but it is in direct conflict with the teachings of Christ.
The Old Testament, is God's law for his chosen people. It was a political system at that time and it helped them survive very trying times. That said, as for modern day Christians it is an historical reference into God's wants for us.
Were men made to have sex with every woman on earth? Straight Christians struggle against straight thoughts too. This pastor has chosen a path of sinful perversion and should not be allowed to serve as a pastor. It would be like having an adulterer leading a church as a pastor and saying sexual immorality is not sinful.
This is what I like about sin. It's a category that you can use to compare vastly different things on equal moral terms. If I tried to argue that murder and homosexuality were more or less the same, then people would think I had lost it. Obviously murder is the taking of a person's life, it is an act where one individual violates the rights of another and homosexuality typically occurs between consenting adults. But if I argue that homosexuality and murder are both sins, then I can treat them as exactly equal. A sin is a sin, and a homosexual is no different than a murderer. It's fun. Then of course, arguing things like adultery, where one person violates the trust of their partner, is the same as homosexuality is easy as well. Where it gets complicated are those pesky sins that nobody takes seriously anymore, such as observing the Sabbath. If we want to be technical, all those pecky people who work at Wal Mart on the Sabbath are no better than the homosexual, adulterers, and murderers. So of course, then you need a church to come in an create special categories of sin that are not discussed in the Bible so that people continue to take some sins serously. It is defninlty an amusing thing to observe.
Do they now? That must be why we have so many different sects of Christianity, many of which have a history of killing each other.
Money and power is definately nothing to gain. I'm sure when Joseph Smith was translating his holy book out of a hat he had "nothing" to gain. That is why his church is one of the most powerful and wealthiest in the world now. Funny how that works.
Those darn Christians, so unlike ther Christ.
Oh yes, because stoning adulterers and homosexuals is all in a day of God's work.
Sin is sin, but where did I bring in murder? I would say some sins are more "severe" than others, but all sin is wrong. I think it's sad that many Christians excuse some sins as "ok." But how is this relevant?
Especially when writing, use "know less than I," not "know less than me."I've never been one who enjoys being told what to do by people who know less than me
I'm just pointing out something I find funny. I just imagine that one day practicing homosexuality will join the long list of sins like "not observing the Sabbath" that have been deemed to be so much less "severe" than the other sins. Of course, I'm sure that Christians believe that the world will suddenly come to an end when such a thing occurs and that the world will suddenly be horribly wicked for allowing gays to live their lives in a way that doesn't really hurt anyone but which violates the sexual norms. Christians are certainly an entertaining bunch.
Mormons are not Christians. They did not even call themselves that until recently to gain more public acceptance. This is a known fact.
Joseph Smith was a known con-man and the "Book of the Mormon" is historically inaccurate to a large degree. Another fact.
So yes he did exactly what you are saying, as did L Ron Hubbard with Scientology. This is nothing but a Red Herring as it has nothing at all to do with the original church of Christ.
Are you going to make a valid point?
Back in the time if the Israelites, it was the law. This again has no bearing at all on modern Christians and is just another red herring.
Especially when writing, use "know less than I," not "know less than me."
"I've never been one who enjoys being told what to do by people who know less than I [know]"
"I've never been one who enjoys being told what to do by people who know less than I [do about...]"
Many Christians in the US have atrophied to force Biblical truth to conform to wickedness and what they want the Bible to say. I find your disrespect of Christians to be offensive. I'm willing to debate rationally and respectfully, I only ask for the same in return.
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