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Medical Care Facts and Fables

phattonez

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I posted facts and links regarding malpractice and proved my point about malpractice, that its great costs are a complete myth, per the thread title. What is your point about defensive medicine? It adds to medical costs, but how much? Make your point.

That's the point! Who knows how much it adds, but you can't claim the cost is neglibible by disregarding the indirect costs that the lawsuits add in the form of unnecessary defensive medicine.
 

phattonez

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There is a distinction between being insured/uninsured vs. enrolled in Medicaid/not enrolled in Medicaid. That's the whole point. The University of Minnesota study showed how.

Your whole argument is that the census uninsured figure is erroneous (or in your own words - "a lie, a greatly, greatly exaggerated lie") based on the count discrepancy of Medicaid enrollees.

Again, your original assertion:


You have shown no correlation to support your accusations.

I have provided a University of Minnesota study that refutes your speculation.

Anyway, I can see that your going to steadfastly cling to your unsupportive view, however the information is there for all to see and makeup their own mind.

Because if you're on Medicaid why should you be counted as uninsured? You still get the money for medical procedures, so to say it's like being uninsured is just being disingenuous.
 

washunut

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I posted facts and links regarding malpractice and proved my point about malpractice, that its great costs are a complete myth, per the thread title. What is your point about defensive medicine? It adds to medical costs, but how much? Make your point.

I am not good with this computer stuff being an aging boomer. That said I took a few minutes looking at Google- the cost of defensive medicine. Looking at a few studies it seems that the cost has been estimated in the 100-200 billion range. Sorry I do not know how to transfer links from the computer into a message.
 

Sandokan

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The interstate competition, a proven mean of cost reduction, was left out of the Healthcare bill intentionally by the Democrats majority in Congress. They repeatedly refused tort reform, a proven tool of cost reduction, as evidenced by States that implemented some tort reform laws. In order to secure good healthcare, the HC bill should be repealed and include in a new bill, among other cost reduction programs, these two key elements.
 

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I am not good with this computer stuff being an aging boomer. That said I took a few minutes looking at Google- the cost of defensive medicine. Looking at a few studies it seems that the cost has been estimated in the 100-200 billion range. Sorry I do not know how to transfer links from the computer into a message.

I'm a boomer too. I don't like that 'aging' word though.

There are no definitive costs for defensive medicine. One reason is the average patient wants the tests. Me, if I have to go to the hospital with a bumped head, I want a CT, and while I'm waiting for that I want an Xray. Better give me some blood thinner too.

That's one of the issues. A doctor may order a procedure or drug for defensive purposes, or maybe he's doing exactly what he thinks ought to be done for the patients well being. Or, maybe the patient insists on getting the potentially relevant tests the doctor didn't order. It's hard to quantify, hard to distinguish between what was done for ordinary medical reasons or defensive reasons, and what was done per patient's request.

Here's a good article on malpractice and defensive medicine costs:

Tangible and Unseen Health-Care Costs - WSJ.com


(If you want to link to an article, you can highlight the address in a site's address window [http://www.debatepolitics.com, for instance], copy it and paste it here)
 

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Steve
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The interstate competition, a proven mean of cost reduction, was left out of the Healthcare bill intentionally by the Democrats majority in Congress. They repeatedly refused tort reform, a proven tool of cost reduction, as evidenced by States that implemented some tort reform laws. In order to secure good healthcare, the HC bill should be repealed and include in a new bill, among other cost reduction programs, these two key elements.

There are three of you here now that are making claims with no links.
 

DrM

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We all want better, less expensive health care. Who wouldn’t?


Consider these:
1) Coverage all government employees enjoy, including the congress, conservative and liberal;
2) Insurance all veterans posses;
3) Insurance retired people have the benefit of;
4) Incentives to improve personal health ;
5) Discontinue free treatment in E.R.’s with at least minimum insurance coverage;
6) Discontinue having the wealthy NOT contribute equally to the tax burden;
7) Adopt a health care system similar to the German system;
8) Protect health care professionals (of which I am one) from taking a serious financial hit.
9) Stop Medicare, Medicaid, unemployment and welfare fraud with severe penalties.
10) Stop insurance executives from making hundreds of millions off the hard=earned money of their policyholders.


There are numerous ways of improving our system with consumer cooperation. The worst enemies we have are the political pendants and members of congress who don’t give a damn about the welfare of the country because they make millions, most of which have paid health insurance. We have become lemmings to these millionaires who tell us what to think. They don’t want us to enjoy the same coverage they enjoy. I am thinking of both sides of the isle.


How long will we continue to blindly listen to pendants and believe these greedy souls who only care about themselves? All of them make millions. . . .GREED! Why do they continue to spew their venom if it is so bad? It makes them a great deal of money and nothing they claim to believe will EVER affect them personally. Most of them are soothsayers. They predict the ominous future for us. They tell us what to think. Since we don’t have the time to devote to politics, we depend on their perspectives to teach us what they want. Again, millions are at stake because they have so many listeners and viewers.


One final thought. . .this proposal is not socialism! We have been instructed to believe it is socialism. It is simply a form of humanity we have not enjoyed since greed has become number one.
 
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phattonez

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One final thought. . .this proposal is not socialism! We have been instructed to believe it is socialism. It is simply a form of humanity we have not enjoyed since greed has become number one.

A form of humanity that depends on the inhuman act of theft? This argument that UHC is humanity reminds me of a quote by Carl Schmitt:

Whoever invokes humanity wants to cheat. To confiscate the word humanity, to invoke and monopolize such a term probably has certain incalculable effects, such as denying the enemy the quality of being human and declaring him to be an outlaw of humanity; and a war can thereby be driven to the most extreme inhumanity.

From The Concept of the Political

Yes, a libertarian did just quote a Nazi.
 

phattonez

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I am not good with this computer stuff being an aging boomer. That said I took a few minutes looking at Google- the cost of defensive medicine. Looking at a few studies it seems that the cost has been estimated in the 100-200 billion range. Sorry I do not know how to transfer links from the computer into a message.

Considering that healthcare in this country supposedly costs $2.3 trillion as I found in the link I'll post in the end, $100-200 billion is 4%-9% of the total healthcare expenditure. That's significant. If it was taken care of it wouldn't fix everything, but it certainly would help.
 

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Steve
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Considering that healthcare in this country supposedly costs $2.3 trillion as I found in the link I'll post in the end, $100-200 billion is 4%-9% of the total healthcare expenditure. That's significant. If it was taken care of it wouldn't fix everything, but it certainly would help.

$100 to $200 billion is at the high end of the estimate, per a couple of the links that have already been posted here.

But let's say you are right, and use $150 billion as the average.

Let's say you enact tort reform and save half of that money. So you knock $75 billion of the total cost of health care in this country:

$2,300,000,000,000 minus $75,000,000,000 = $2,225,000,000,000

Not much happened up there. Health care was cut by a tiny percentage. It looks like you did very little with your tort reform except take legal rights away from American citizens without doing much of anything regarding the big picture of overall health care costs.
 

phattonez

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$100 to $200 billion is at the high end of the estimate, per a couple of the links that have already been posted here.

But let's say you are right, and use $150 billion as the average.

Let's say you enact tort reform and save half of that money. So you knock $75 billion of the total cost of health care in this country:

$2,300,000,000,000 minus $75,000,000,000 = $2,225,000,000,000

Not much happened up there. Health care was cut by a tiny percentage. It looks like you did very little with your tort reform except take legal rights away from American citizens without doing much of anything regarding the big picture of overall health care costs.

That's a 3.2% difference. It won't fix everything, but it helps.

And what is this with "my" tort reform? I told you my position: eliminate punitive damages. People should be able to sue, but not for punitive damages. I was just trying to show the effects of a cap on liability.

I already made a thread about something that I think really causes most of the problems in the healthcare industry. You should read it.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/health-care/77819-did-healthcare-problems-start.html

This is a great article about the history of healthcare in this country.

100 Years of US Medical Fascism - Dale Steinreich - Mises Daily
 

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Steve
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That's a 3.2% difference. It won't fix everything, but it helps.

A 3.2% difference? Won't fix anything. Nothing. And it will not help at all.

I don't know whether it's a personal thing, maybe you have a problem punishing doctors with punitive damages, or maybe you just don't want people to get punitive money from someone who hurt them because you just don't feel they deserve it. Because surely you can see from these numbers that tort reform will not make any significant difference at all in the health care system.
 

Sandokan

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The bureaucrats in the in the insurance companies may or may not be concerned about our healthcare, but for sure they are concerned that we stay with their insurance company so it can remained in business and they can keep their jobs, since we can take our business elsewhere. Government bureaucrats are less likely to care about our healthcare, because when they take charge of the healthcare system, we can’t take our business elsewhere, and they will remain safe in their jobs.
 

Sandokan

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I like to ask a couple of questions to those that believe the Health Care bill will solve most of the problems of the actual health system:

If this new Health Care system approved by Congress is so good, why they and the Administration are keeping their own, the Federal Employees Health Benefits Program?
If their system benefits are better, why they are unwilling to extend those benefits to the rest of us?

This is another example of the hypocrisy of their actions. They should practice what they preach, lead by example.
 

phattonez

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A 3.2% difference? Won't fix anything. Nothing. And it will not help at all.

I don't know whether it's a personal thing, maybe you have a problem punishing doctors with punitive damages, or maybe you just don't want people to get punitive money from someone who hurt them because you just don't feel they deserve it. Because surely you can see from these numbers that tort reform will not make any significant difference at all in the health care system.

3.2% would definitely help considering that the average annual individual premium is about $3000. That's about $100 savings per person. It doesn't solve everything, but it helps. Again, you have to realize that it is not the only solution I want.
 

DrM

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A form of humanity that depends on the inhuman act of theft? This argument that UHC is humanity reminds me of a quote by Carl Schmitt:



From The Concept of the Political

Yes, a libertarian did just quote a Nazi.

Personally, Unless I misinterpreted what you wrote, I can't put much worth in the words of a Nazi over a fellow US Citizen who is interested in humanity, which is not a bad concept..
 

phattonez

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Personally, Unless I misinterpreted what you wrote, I can't put much worth in the words of a Nazi over a fellow US Citizen who is interested in humanity, which is not a bad concept..

Humanity is whatever the user wants it to be to suits his needs. Therefore, calling your opponent inhuman is just empty rhetoric.
 

jeffwillsonn

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Indian Economics in the regards of health sector, involves the health and welfare policies of government. Although the health insurance sector during recent years has recorded a healthy growth rate of 38%, only it is true that only 1.08% of the 1 Billion Indians have secured for medical insurance cover since when the health insurance policy was first introduced by the government. As per a study conducted by National Insurance Academy, especially in rural areas, poverty, shortage of hospitals and insurance providers, lack of co-ordination between hospitals and insurance firms are reasons for the poor response. Worst of all is people's belief in destiny that have been considered as the reason for the poor response.
 
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