• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

Maybe there's hope for the Catholic church yet!

Ted Bundy, John Gacy, Jeffrey Dahmer, Sadam Hussein, Adolph Hitler, Marquis deSaad, Josef Mengele, Osama Bin Laden, Heinrich Himmler, Adolph Eichman, Nero, Caligula, Idi Amin, et al et al et al, Pol Pot, Joseph Stalin, Vlad Dracula, Atilla the Hun, Emperor Hirohito, Nero, Jim Jones, Charles Manson, et al et al et al. And their millions of minions.

The list of evil people is endless.

Indeed. But Jesus said if you've lusted after a married woman in your heart, you've committed adultery. By extrapolation, then, if you've ever desired anyone dead, you might as well have committed murder. And so on down the list of "Thou Shalt Not's." So I wouldn't think anyone who has lived very long is innocent of very much. Hence, without a Savior for the remission of sins, virtually all are lost.
 
Indeed. But Jesus said if you've lusted after a married woman in your heart, you've committed adultery. By extrapolation, then, if you've ever desired anyone dead, you might as well have committed murder. And so on down the list of "Thou Shalt Not's." So I wouldn't think anyone who has lived very long is innocent of very much. Hence, without a Savior for the remission of sins, virtually all are lost.

Well, that's where we disagree. Why would an omniscient God create beings with free will, put evil into the world and then stand back and watch his creations do evil things? And, since he loves us, why would he condemn us to hell when we fail? We are not Gods ourselves. We are foible-filled. Until I can answer that question to my own satisfaction, I'll be a pick-and-choose believer and hope that's enough. ;)
 
Well, that's where we disagree. Why would an omniscient God create beings with free will, put evil into the world and then stand back and watch his creations do evil things? And, since he loves us, why would he condemn us to hell when we fail? We are not Gods ourselves. We are foible-filled. Until I can answer that question to my own satisfaction, I'll be a pick-and-choose believer and hope that's enough. ;)

That's the key - free will. How can God create man with free will and not allow them to do evil if they wish? If he creates only "good" people then all he has are pre-programmed robots.

Also, in Job chapter 1, we see Satan demanding God allow him to influence man. A fair God, I believe, would allow challenges to his authority for a period of time for the challenger(s) to make their case. And then God can drop the hammer.
 
Well. in defense of Christians, they can justify it, as that is what they are taught, and for the Pope to come out with something like this could cause instability in the church itself. Although I agree with you, and it IS the reason I left organized religion in the first place, there are a great many people who prefer to accept what they are told, rather than challenge it, because there is comfort in not going against the grain of the majority. Regardless of what you and I, and others think about the church itself, it is a source of comfort for many. I don't mean to come across as argumentative, just offering my take on the questions you posed.

Personal comfort and stubborn unconditional acceptance of what one is told is no defense whatsoever. That's the kind of thinking that's been used to justify all manner of idiotic ideologies. Eventually someone comes along with enough courage to challenge the status quo and things change. I say go Francis!
 
Personal comfort and stubborn unconditional acceptance of what one is told is no defense whatsoever. That's the kind of thinking that's been used to justify all manner of idiotic ideologies. Eventually someone comes along with enough courage to challenge the status quo and things change. I say go Francis!

Well, actually, I believe that it is. As much as you and I may disagree with religious institutions, they do provide some stability in the world as it is. Without it, I believe we would see a pretty severe decline in things.
 
Now, here is the question. It's my understanding that God speaks through the Pope, so if the Pope says something and then the Catholic Church goes against it, aren't they going against God?

It needs to be what they call an 'ex cathedra' statement. The Pope's opinion on, say, the geography of Inner Mongolia, has never been considered infallible. This one seems to a worthwhile sort, as they go.
 
The Bible teaches that ALL have sinned (and thus need a Savior for the remission of their sins).

Nor is Jesus a liberal, which is what this pope is sounding more and more like.

Was Jesus a liberal? « The Righter Report

The Bible was written by man. It's been interpreted by man. Man is fallible. It's a little short sighted to rest your faith on such a flimsy foundation, but to each his own. :shrug:
 
The concept of most Protestant religions is that FAITH, not WORKS is the means to Salvation, and that forgiveness is immediate and requires nothing more than being heartily sorry for having commited the sins. The Catholic church has long taught the need for both FAITH AND WORKS as a means to Salvation, along with the need for Penetence (all those prayers and such the Father tells them to do) in order to obtain forgiveness of sins. The concept here is that to truly earn one's way into Heaven, one would have to be perfect, and scripture teaches there has only ever been one Perfect Person - Jesus. Therefore, no amount of good works can get you there. It requires Faith in the Life, Death, Resurrection, and Assencion of Jesus to qualify one to go there.

That is what they believe, just as people of the Budhist, Hebrew, Islamic, etc... faiths have their own takes on what is required to get into Heaven. Those of us who do not adhere to any particular organized religious faith also have our views on what happens at the end of life, and why.

I understand that. It changes nothing to my point of view. This Pope has it right. I grew up Catholic. I was told that good people don't go to hell. They may not go to heaven if they don't believe in god/jesus/holy spirit and if they are not baptised, but they won't go to hell.
 
Well, actually, I believe that it is. As much as you and I may disagree with religious institutions, they do provide some stability in the world as it is. Without it, I believe we would see a pretty severe decline in things.

I can't agree. There are too many examples, i.e. in the Middle East, where religion is a very big part of the constant instability. The most stable societies in the world today are increasingly secular in nature.
 
The Bible was written by man. It's been interpreted by man. Man is fallible. It's a little short sighted to rest your faith on such a flimsy foundation, but to each his own. :shrug:

Considering the fulfillment of Messianic prophecies as noted in Matthew, etc., there certainly appears to be a (divine) supernatural entity at work.
 
I can't agree. There are too many examples, i.e. in the Middle East, where religion is a very big part of the constant instability. The most stable societies in the world today are increasingly secular in nature.

I suspect that without the religion in the ME, things would be even worse than they are. Eventually, that would subside, but probably with much destruction on the way up. Hopefully, I won't be alive to watch.
 
I understand that. It changes nothing to my point of view. This Pope has it right. I grew up Catholic. I was told that good people don't go to hell. They may not go to heaven if they don't believe in god/jesus/holy spirit and if they are not baptised, but they won't go to hell.

I did not grow up Catholic. I grew up Lutheran, but have always had an interest in religion/morality/spirituality. The way you were instructed is very different than pretty much every Catholic church I've ever personally seen or heard about. I'm not saying you're wrong, just that it's a very different view from the Catholicism that I'm used to dealing with. My personal beliefs no longer fall along a Christian (or any other organized religious) path. I believe in and follow a form of personal spirituality and morality instead.
 
I'm fairly certain that no atheist really lives in trepidation over the threat of hell, nor would that trepidation be relieved by something the pope said. After all, if we really thought he knew what he was talking about, we would be Catholics. But we're not. We're atheists. We don't think there's any merit at all in people's assertions about gods or magic or anything like that.

I, for one, would rather he said something about stopping his priests from raping children or telling Africans that they should use condoms to stop spreading AIDS.
 
I can't agree. There are too many examples, i.e. in the Middle East, where religion is a very big part of the constant instability. The most stable societies in the world today are increasingly secular in nature.

Religion isn't necessarily a good thing in Government but Morality IS necessary for a decent society or nation to truly prosper. That's why I have such fear for the USA.... we have lost all pretense of Morality, Decency, and Values.
 
Religion isn't necessarily a good thing in Government but Morality IS necessary for a decent society or nation to truly prosper. That's why I have such fear for the USA.... we have lost all pretense of Morality, Decency, and Values.

Well, I'm not one to subscribe to the moral relativism point of view, but it seems to me that each country sets its own levels of morality and decency and decides what values are most important. The levels of prosperity do not seem to correlate to the types of morality or values each country embraces.
 
Well, I'm not one to subscribe to the moral relativism point of view, but it seems to me that each country sets its own levels of morality and decency and decides what values are most important. The levels of prosperity do not seem to correlate to the types of morality or values each country embraces.

I don't believe in moral relativism either. The difference between us is that I do believe there is a single, universal Moral standard for the entier human race, and that neither you, nor I, nor anyone in our conceivable memory came up with it. It's as old as the human race itself. I also tend to see "prosperity" as more than a simple dollars and cents issue. It's much more about how well a society accepts and engrains the ideals of Right/Wrong, and Law and Order into itself, and the results that provides which shows true prosperity.
 
Pope Francis Assures Atheists: You don't have to believe in God to go to heaven. I never thought I'd hear that from ANY religion -- much less from the Catholic Church. This is BIG, folks.

That's always been my problem with Christianity. The belief has always been: If you don't accept Jesus Christ as your savior? You will go to hell. What kind of a compassionate God would make THAT rule??



Pope Francis assures atheists: You don

Great post Mags. Pope Francis impresses me more than any Pope I can recall. I am very impressed with his enlightened attitude and outlook. Good for him. How much of this will filter down and be accepted and supported in parishes across the world is yet another matter. I can't imagine. Maybe I'll be surprised, I don't know. I just can't see a lot of priests giving up their stodgy ways and opening their minds to new ideas. All in all, no matter. In my humble opinion, Pope Francis is doing the right thing and that's a good thing. Good for him.

Now if Pope Francis could just get rid of that awful folk mass.
 
That actually makes me feel better. Ha! I have such compassion for the Jehovah Witnesses who trudge door-to-door in their thankless pursuit to spread the word. If you're polite to them, they're very difficult to get rid of. I've come up with a line that works, though:


*Big Smile* -- That usually does the trick. I don't accept their pamphlets either; otherwise they come back and give you a quiz. :rofl

I found that by saying "I'm a Buddhist and my wife is Catholic" JWs don't stay around long.
 
I found that by saying "I'm a Buddhist and my wife is Catholic" JWs don't stay around long.

Reminds me of a friend of mine. He's a testosterone-filled big-game hunter. Catholic. Hates! JWs and their evanglism. One day, they came a'knockin' at their door. He got to it before Nancy could get to it and read them the riot act. "Get outa' here, you JERKS!!! If you EVER set foot on my property again!!! I'll sic my dog on you." Or some-such.

Nancy was mortified. He slammed the door and stormed away. She peeked her head out the door and said, "You'll have to excuse him. He's getting ready to go to church."
 
Wonder what kind of spin they will try on this to get the Pope and the Church back on the same page.

And didn't John Milton address this very issue?

Though all the winds of doctrine were let loose to play upon the earth, so Truth be in the field, we do injuriously by licensing and prohibiting to misdoubt her strength. Let her and Falsehood grapple; who ever knew Truth put to the worse, in a free and open encounter.

JOHN MILTON, Areopagitica


Truth prevails. What Milton was saying is that truth begs to be questioned. It seems to me, over the centuries the Catholic Church has refused or denied people the right to question and when that happens you lose connection to the truth. What it means is that people then worship as they're told, their worship is rote and they no longer know why they believe. It happens in all religions, in this case, however, we're talking about the Catholic Church.

Milton said that truth needs to be challenged, it invites challenge. Truth prevails. In challenging the truth you renew your convictions or you discover a new truth. Either way, truth wins out. The old church never invited questioning of what it determined to be the truth. Pope Francis is, I think, attempting to break away from the old timeworn past, where people believed because they were told to and they believed in the way they were told to believe. Personally, I see it as a great thing. However, I doubt that the people who enjoy local and regional power (priest, bishops, etc.) within the church will want things to change. Pope Francis is breathing life back into the Catholic Church and it's going to be raucous and vocal and maybe sometimes nasty, but it's going to be interesting. Hope Francis is a very brave man. Bless him, I wish him the best of luck.
 
Last edited:
Pope Francis Assures Atheists: You don't have to believe in God to go to heaven. I never thought I'd hear that from ANY religion -- much less from the Catholic Church. This is BIG, folks.

That's always been my problem with Christianity. The belief has always been: If you don't accept Jesus Christ as your savior? You will go to hell. What kind of a compassionate God would make THAT rule??



Pope Francis assures atheists: You don

It's nothing new to the Catholic Church, it's in the CCC although it might be new to some Catholics who aren't familiar with the dictates of their own religion.

"847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337"

Catechism of the Catholic Church - IntraText
 
Reminds me of a friend of mine. He's a testosterone-filled big-game hunter. Catholic. Hates! JWs and their evanglism. One day, they came a'knockin' at their door. He got to it before Nancy could get to it and read them the riot act. "Get outa' here, you JERKS!!! If you EVER set foot on my property again!!! I'll sic my dog on you." Or some-such.

Nancy was mortified. He slammed the door and stormed away. She peeked her head out the door and said, "You'll have to excuse him. He's getting ready to go to church."

I love it!
 
Trying to boost membership in your club by saying that you need not adhere to any "rules" makes membership in that club largely meaningless. We already have a Christian religion with no real rules, the Unitarian Universalists. As Groucho Marx said - I would refuse to join any club that would have me as a member.

Unitarian Universalist Association of Congregations | UUA

The Pope wasn't giving atheists "memberships" into the Catholic Church he was leaving the judgment of their eternal souls in the hands of God.
 
There either is or there isn't a heaven.
Similarly there either is or there isn't a hell.

You either believe there is [a heaven or hell] or you believe there isn't.

Does it make sense then to get angry with those who assert the opposite of what you believe?

If what you believe turns out to be true, why be angry with those who believed it to be false?
If what you believe turns out to be false, why be angry with those who believed it to be true?

In fact, wouldn't it make sense - in either case - to show a little grace and perhaps some pity to those who didn't believe as you did?
 
The Pope may have forgotten about Romans chapter 1:

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
 
Back
Top Bottom