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maybe if we werent under such presure by the left

OdgenTugbyGlub

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Yeah, maybe if we just round up all the arabs and put them in camps there will be no more terrorism. Or maybe if we just detain just the suspicious looking arabs we might stop the violence.

Please. There are no particulars and we cannot make a judgement on why the man was detained in the first place and why he was released. All we have is: We might have had him detained, we released him because we had "no compelling evidence he was a threat to security", and he bombed someplace. And from that you go on to make an attack on the mysterious political force that is "The Left"?

Get off the soapbox NavyPride Jr.
 

ProudAmerican

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Yeah, maybe if we just round up all the arabs and put them in camps there will be no more terrorism.
why on earth would you want to do that? try to debate the issue rather than trying to put words into someones mouth.
Or maybe if we just detain just the suspicious looking arabs we might stop the violence.
again, im not sure why you would think such a thing.

oh, maybe its because about 90% of all terrorist acts are commited by the guys you are talking about.

my point of this thread is, the left CERTAINLY concerns itself with the rights of the enemy, even more than it concerns itself with the safety of the men and women fighting them.

its not a stretch to think this guy was released because of fear of some kind of legal ramifications from the same people that made such a big deal out of abu grahb.

and there is nothing "mysterious" about the left.
 

Calm2Chaos

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OdgenTugbyGlub said:
Yeah, maybe if we just round up all the arabs and put them in camps there will be no more terrorism. Or maybe if we just detain just the suspicious looking arabs we might stop the violence.

Please. There are no particulars and we cannot make a judgement on why the man was detained in the first place and why he was released. All we have is: We might have had him detained, we released him because we had "no compelling evidence he was a threat to security", and he bombed someplace. And from that you go on to make an attack on the mysterious political force that is "The Left"?

Get off the soapbox NavyPride Jr.
I keep forgetting your idea of security is allowing anyone to do anything they want. And you can do anything about it until they pull the rip cord on there martry vest. Ya thats going to work fukn brilliantly. Don't you have an ACLU meeting to get to. Get off your soap box screaming about the rights of terrorist. Did anywhere in that post did he mention rounding up all the arabs? Go on and get to your shehan rally. I am sure you have a sign to hold or some such ****
 

OdgenTugbyGlub

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why on earth would you want to do that? try to debate the issue rather than trying to put words into someones mouth.

again, im not sure why you would think such a thing.

oh, maybe its because about 90% of all terrorist acts are commited by the guys you are talking about.
Its called sarcasm, kind of like what you did in the last sentence ;) .

my point of this thread is, the left CERTAINLY concerns itself with the rights of the enemy, even more than it concerns itself with the safety of the men and women fighting them.

its not a stretch to think this guy was released because of fear of some kind of legal ramifications from the same people that made such a big deal out of abu grahb.

and there is nothing "mysterious" about the left.
Proof sir, I require at least some proof of this. Proof and then we can actually debate instead of trade sarcasm.

I keep forgetting your idea of security is allowing anyone to do anything they want. And you can do anything about it until they pull the rip cord on there martry vest. Ya thats going to work fukn brilliantly. Don't you have an ACLU meeting to get to. Get off your soap box screaming about the rights of terrorist. Did anywhere in that post did he mention rounding up all the arabs? Go on and get to your shehan rally. I am sure you have a sign to hold or some such ****
I dont remember ever talking with you, debating with you, or even posting my views on these types of things. Let me ask you, are you just making a ill-informed sweeping generalization here, or do you actually think I believe these things? I didn't say anything about the "rights of terrorists", I said you can't just put this vauge article up and then blame the left. I say the same thing to dems who put show me articles about something wrong in the government and then go "see? The right is ****ing up again!". Just because you want things to be so doesnt make them so. Hows about we wait till we get the particulars of his release before we shoot off our mouths about whose fault it is?

PS: Again about rounding up the A-rabs, it was sarcasm. A nifty literary tool if you ask me.
 

ProudAmerican

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Proof sir, I require at least some proof of this. Proof and then we can actually debate instead of trade sarcasm.
for starters, the left is all for signing a new law that would prevent us from ever using torture against terrorist captives. that would violate their "rights" and would possibly hinder us from getting necessary information in the future that could prevent terrorist attacks.

the left was very concerned with what went on at abu grahb. that wasnt even torture. IMO it was nothing more than bad judgement of some soldiers that resulted in the humiliation of some TERRORIST captives. far from being torture....but the left certainly didnt want their "rights" violated.
 

OdgenTugbyGlub

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for starters, the left is all for signing a new law that would prevent us from ever using torture against terrorist captives. that would violate their "rights" and would possibly hinder us from getting necessary information in the future that could prevent terrorist attacks.
It doesn't just violate their "certain unalienable rights" (remember the DoI?) but it lowers us to their level. Besides, I thought "The USA Does Not Torture" right? Its nice to say "Oh, they're terrorists! It doesn't matter if we torture them, they're evil" but when you start down that road I think you lose a bit of your humanity. Torture just isn't good. Period. We should hold ourselves to a higher standard than that.

the left was very concerned with what went on at abu grahb. that wasnt even torture. IMO it was nothing more than bad judgement of some soldiers that resulted in the humiliation of some TERRORIST captives. far from being torture....but the left certainly didnt want their "rights" violated.
Once again, the fact of whether the acts at A.G. is debatable, and I dont really care one way or another. Its not so much that their "rights" are being violated, but the damage the act did to American credibility abroad that I, personally, was concerned about. Stuff like that, besides being unecessary, doesn't really help us out on the world stage. I think that with A.G. the left was just trying to do what political parties do, get attention. Same thing the right does with topics like Gay Marriage, they latch on to a hot issue and push. Thats why I'm an don't affiliate myself with a party. Can't stand political party nonsense.
 

ProudAmerican

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It doesn't just violate their "certain unalienable rights"
non U.S. citizens are not included.
but it lowers us to their level.
awww....i think i may cry. WHO CARES. are we fighting to win or not?
I thought "The USA Does Not Torture" right?
that doesnt mean we should handcuff ourselves in the future if we find it necessary to save American lives.
"Oh, they're terrorists! It doesn't matter if we torture them, they're evil"
the first thing we have agreed on so far I think.
We should hold ourselves to a higher standard than that.
we should also fight this war to win it at all costs so we can end it. playing "nice" never won a fight.
Its not so much that their "rights" are being violated, but the damage the act did to American credibility abroad that I, personally, was concerned about.
you can thank the mainstream media for that one. they were as much to blame, if not moreso, than the men and women that actually commited the acts. but of course, their agenda was truly to discredit America, and Bush, so it was ok by the majority of the left.
 

OdgenTugbyGlub

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non U.S. citizens are not included.
A selfevident truth: All men are created equal.

awww....i think i may cry. WHO CARES. are we fighting to win or not?
Whats victory if we become what we fight?

that doesnt mean we should handcuff ourselves in the future if we find it necessary to save American lives.
And when does torture become necessary? When do you know the time is right to put someone on the rack?

we should also fight this war to win it at all costs so we can end it. playing "nice" never won a fight.
This isn't about "playing nice" this is about becoming just as bad as who we fight. If we want to be seen as the moral leaders of the freeworld we should act like a moral people.

you can thank the mainstream media for that one. they were as much to blame, if not moreso, than the men and women that actually commited the acts. but of course, their agenda was truly to discredit America, and Bush, so it was ok by the majority of the left.
I beg to differ, the foriegn media devoted just as much coverage to these events as the mainstream American media. Even if the American media hadn't covered the scandal foriegn newspapers and news networks would have, and it would have done the same damage to our reputation.
 

ProudAmerican

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A selfevident truth: All men are created equal.
wonderful. but non US citizens are still not protected by the constitution.

Whats victory if we become what we fight?
survival

And when does torture become necessary? When do you know the time is right to put someone on the rack?
I think that decision should be left up to the men protecting this nation. it certainly SHOULD NOT be left up to partisan politicians that will sell both you and I down the river for a vote.

This isn't about "playing nice" this is about becoming just as bad as who we fight. If we want to be seen as the moral leaders of the freeworld we should act like a moral people.
actually its about WINNING. untill modern islamic terrorists came on the scene, I would have agreed with you. I am open minded enough to realize what we are fighting is like nothing in history. not even the nazis, or the japanese kamikazis were as radical or nutty.

I beg to differ, the foriegn media devoted just as much coverage to these events as the mainstream American media. Even if the American media hadn't covered the scandal foriegn newspapers and news networks would have, and it would have done the same damage to our reputation.
you mean foriegn mdeia like Al Jazera? the French? the Germans? yeah there was no agenda there huh. lol.

there is no doubt that situation was overblown beyond comprehension by media outlets that want to do all they can to discredit America.

how dare Al Jazera worry about what happened at AG when there are muslems sawing off heads.
how dare France worry about it when there is oil for food going on
how dare Germany worry about it when there is oil for food going on
 

OdgenTugbyGlub

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wonderful. but non US citizens are still not protected by the constitution
Its not from the constitution, but you know that. The point is it is one of the fundamental principles this country was founded on.

This is definatly hyperbole. Terrorism is but a fly on our back.

I think that decision should be left up to the men protecting this nation. it certainly SHOULD NOT be left up to partisan politicians that will sell both you and I down the river for a vote.
That would give them a freehand to torture. There will always be oversight, but if you allow people to hide behind the screen of "national security" no abuses will ever be stopped.

you mean foriegn mdeia like Al Jazera? the French? the Germans? yeah there was no agenda there huh. lol.

there is no doubt that situation was overblown beyond comprehension by media outlets that want to do all they can to discredit America.

how dare Al Jazera worry about what happened at AG when there are muslems sawing off heads.
how dare France worry about it when there is oil for food going on
how dare Germany worry about it when there is oil for food going on
I mean the foriegn media like ALL the foriegn media. Every country.

AL Jazera can worry about what they want. The fact that muslims sawed off heads does not change the fact that AG happened.

The french media wasn't involved in the scandal, neither were the french people. Ditto for the Germans.

How dare we denounce oppression in China when there is racism in America.
How dare we attack other governments when our own officials are being investigated for corruption.
How dare we denounce radicallism when we create a culture of fear and hate against arabs.

Simple: we dare because it isn't right, regardless of what our own wrongs may be.
 

ProudAmerican

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Its not from the constitution, but you know that. The point is it is one of the fundamental principles this country was founded on.
I do not think it pertains to the people that flew jets into the WTC, or the ones sawing off heads. but hey, what do I know.

This is definatly hyperbole. Terrorism is but a fly on our back.
tell that to the 3,000 dead people in NYC. this kind of thought is why liberals should never have the responsibility of protecting Americans. Islamic terrorists want us all dead....and if they ever get their hands on a true WMD, you will eat the words in your last sentence.

That would give them a freehand to torture. There will always be oversight, but if you allow people to hide behind the screen of "national security" no abuses will ever be stopped.
and if you take away their power to effectively stop fanatical muslems, no terrorists will ever be stopped.

AL Jazera can worry about what they want. The fact that muslims sawed off heads does not change the fact that AG happened.
correct. the problem is, leftist sympathizers dont see a difference between the two. clear thinking people easily do.

The french media wasn't involved in the scandal, neither were the french people. Ditto for the Germans.
really? well, Im not living in either country....but Ill bet ya a 6 pack they gloated just like our local media did.

How dare we denounce oppression in China when there is racism in America.
How dare we attack other governments when our own officials are being investigated for corruption.
How dare we denounce radicallism when we create a culture of fear and hate against arabs.
you arent comparing apples to apples here. china vs racism in america....where we have made advancements beyond comprehension in the last 2 decades?
by "other governments" I will assume you mean Iraq. and if you think "corruption" was why we went there.....then we need another thread to discuss it.
please give me an example of a culture of fear and hate against arabs? sure there are those like me, that simply read their book and see it for what it is.....but if ANYONE in America has created a culture of fear and hate against arabs.....its THE ARABS.

Simple: we dare because it isn't right, regardless of what our own wrongs may be.
a good point, and well taken.
 
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ProudAmerican said:
to make sure terrorists rights arent violated......this guy wouldnt have had his chance to become a martyr.........unfortunately, now we will never know

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,175460,00.html

oh....and im new here. hiya!!!

:2wave:
Hang on you actually take Fox News seriously? That sh!ts all propaganda dude just in case you didn’t know. And by the way “left” – “right” it’s all bullshit to divide and rule people, the real paradigm is freedom vs slavery.

 

Old and wise

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Pressure from the left? Get real. If the neocons had not screwed up so badly there would not be any pressure from the left.
 

OdgenTugbyGlub

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I do not think it pertains to the people that flew jets into the WTC, or the ones sawing off heads. but hey, what do I know.
\
One group is dead, the other should be dead. But even though I wouldn't mind seeing them dead, I would hate to think they had to suffer unduly, just as I hate to see the suffering of their victims, before hand. Let the whoever waits in the the here-after to sort it out with them.

tell that to the 3,000 dead people in NYC. this kind of thought is why liberals should never have the responsibility of protecting Americans. Islamic terrorists want us all dead....and if they ever get their hands on a true WMD, you will eat the words in your last sentence.
\
A goal which, if we get our intelligence service right, could be accomplished without torture, and should be accomplished without torture. I suppose my comment was also somewhat of a hyperbole, but my point is that the "war on terror" is not some new and immediate threat upon us. We have been weathering this sort of thing for a long time, it comes with having the championship belt, everyone wants a go at you.

and if you take away their power to effectively stop fanatical muslems, no terrorists will ever be stopped.
Agree to disagree. I don't think, with a properly trained and utlized intelligence force, we need to torture people, people who may or may not know anything.

you arent comparing apples to apples here. china vs racism in america....where we have made advancements beyond comprehension in the last 2 decades?
by "other governments" I will assume you mean Iraq. and if you think "corruption" was why we went there.....then we need another thread to discuss it.
please give me an example of a culture of fear and hate against arabs? sure there are those like me, that simply read their book and see it for what it is.....but if ANYONE in America has created a culture of fear and hate against arabs.....its THE ARABS.
Oil for food doesn't exactly equate to "apples" when compared to the possiblility of institutionalized torture practices either.
By other governments I meant Ger. and Fr., I.E. oil for food.
Culture of hate against arabs: Just go talk to people. You'll find alot of them who just want to "kill all the **********s" (actual quote from a guy in D.C., and not a hobo either).

Those things were just used to illustrate my final point, by themselves they weren't really basis for any arguement.


(A few typos in the post are not going to be fixed because for some reason I can't see the print in the edit window, only the quotes. Sorry if some of it is hard to read.)
 
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