Matador Victor Barrio killed by bull in Spain, score one for the bulls!

[Goshin]

I get that and the multiple metaphors of the Corrida are powerful, but I'd argue that it's deeply anachronistic. There's a difference between not overly sanitising modern life and conducting ritualised slaughter. I don't doubt the courage of the toreros for one second. I've seen corridas up close and both in the tercio de varas where the bull is fresh and will charge at anything, and later in the tercio de muerte when torero and bull face off within a pace or two of each other, it's terrifying. A bull of 600kg against a man of 70kg is never a foregone conclusion, as this death proves.

I think my point is that civilised attitudes towards the profligate and arbitrary use of animals for entertainment or pageant are changing, and I think that's to be welcomed. There are plenty of other activities where humans (predominantly men) can test their bravery, skill, and nerve without also demonstrating their callousness and cruelty. I think that ethically those two weaknesses of character detract greatly from the qualities they are attempting to display.

There are even forms of bullfighting where the result for the bull is not always a prolonged and painful death. In Portugal, the forcados style of fighting is certainly a major test of agility, bravery and technique. Bulls that fight well are often allowed to live and are kept for breeding. The symbolism and metaphors are the same, the collateral damage somewhat less.

I am sorry for the death of Victor Barrio, human lives are not directly comparable with those of a bull, but every torero knows that s/he is staring death in the face; that's what they are challenging themselves with. Remove the threat and you remove the very reason for the spectacle.

Well said sir.

 

[Renae]

Just saw a bullfight in Madrid this spring.

Apparently, it must have some cultural significance, especially for the Spanish hillbilly types that seemed to attend, but it's clearly a 'sport' that will die out soon. Apparently, it's already been banned in half of Spain, and the arena I attended was 3/4 empty.

I did see a matador get hit and knocked down though- that was kind of exciting.

The impressive part were the armored horses, which were calm as a bull attacked them.

https://vimeo.com/174112193

I'ts been banned in two areas, not half, and your bias detracts from your account of the attendance.

 

[Andalublue]

I'ts been banned in two areas, not half, and your bias detracts from your account of the attendance.

Corridas are nowhere near as popular as they used to be. Bullrings are often half-empty. The spectacle, it's really not a sport, and actually the aficianados of la lidia object strongly to people calling it a sport, is heavily subsidised by national, regional and local government because it is not financially viable. It's seen a bit like opera and flamenco by its supporters in public office i.e. of cultural and artistic importance.

For those who want to see it die out, the strategy has changed in recent years, away from seeking an outright ban, and towards simply banning the use of public funds to subsidise the activity. Doing that would ensure it would die out fairly quickly unless rich people who support it want to bankroll its survival.

 

[Renae]

Corridas are nowhere near as popular as they used to be. Bullrings are often half-empty. The spectacle, it's really not a sport, and actually the aficianados of la lidia object strongly to people calling it a sport, is heavily subsidised by national, regional and local government because it is not financially viable. It's seen a bit like opera and flamenco by its supporters in public office i.e. of cultural and artistic importance.

For those who want to see it die out, the strategy has changed in recent years, away from seeking an outright ban, and towards simply banning the use of public funds to subsidise the activity. Doing that would ensure it would die out fairly quickly unless rich people who support it want to bankroll its survival.

I'm sure it will fade away eventually.

 

[radcen]

Corridas are nowhere near as popular as they used to be. Bullrings are often half-empty. The spectacle, it's really not a sport, and actually the aficianados of la lidia object strongly to people calling it a sport, is heavily subsidised by national, regional and local government because it is not financially viable. It's seen a bit like opera and flamenco by its supporters in public office i.e. of cultural and artistic importance.

For those who want to see it die out, the strategy has changed in recent years, away from seeking an outright ban, and towards simply banning the use of public funds to subsidise the activity. Doing that would ensure it would die out fairly quickly unless rich people who support it want to bankroll its survival.

It would be better if it died a "natural" death like that, IMO. People wouldn't be as likely to try and resurrect it because the ban wasn't forced on them.

 

[Andalublue]

I'm sure it will fade away eventually.

I hope so, but I think it's better that it be allowed to do so naturally, by the force of its decreasing popularity.

Here's a good article that puts both sides of the debate.

 

[radcen]

Me as well, Renae.

I went to Spain twice with a group trying to stop the horrors of bullfighting. It's a disgusting, cruel, horrific act.

I don't applaud when people die, but given the fact that I detest matadors and anyone involved with this cruel "sport", I have no sympathy for this man or his family. I applaud the bull.

Not criticizing you or your position, but I have to ask: Exactly, realistically, what did you think you'd be able to accomplish?

 

[Goshin]

Corridas are nowhere near as popular as they used to be. Bullrings are often half-empty. The spectacle, it's really not a sport, and actually the aficianados of la lidia object strongly to people calling it a sport, is heavily subsidised by national, regional and local government because it is not financially viable. It's seen a bit like opera and flamenco by its supporters in public office i.e. of cultural and artistic importance.

For those who want to see it die out, the strategy has changed in recent years, away from seeking an outright ban, and towards simply banning the use of public funds to subsidise the activity. Doing that would ensure it would die out fairly quickly unless rich people who support it want to bankroll its survival.

If it dies a natural death from disinterest within the culture in which it originated, I have no issues with that. Cultures change....



It would still sadden me a little to have yet another cultural tradition disappear in the name of modern scrupulosity.

 

[Harry Guerrilla]

I get that and the multiple metaphors of the Corrida are powerful, but I'd argue that it's deeply anachronistic. There's a difference between not overly sanitising modern life and conducting ritualised slaughter. I don't doubt the courage of the toreros for one second. I've seen corridas up close and both in the tercio de varas where the bull is fresh and will charge at anything, and later in the tercio de muerte when torero and bull face off within a pace or two of each other, it's terrifying. A bull of 600kg against a man of 70kg is never a foregone conclusion, as this death proves.

I think my point is that civilised attitudes towards the profligate and arbitrary use of animals for entertainment or pageant are changing, and I think that's to be welcomed. There are plenty of other activities where humans (predominantly men) can test their bravery, skill, and nerve without also demonstrating their callousness and cruelty. I think that ethically those two weaknesses of character detract greatly from the qualities they are attempting to display.

There are even forms of bullfighting where the result for the bull is not always a prolonged and painful death. In Portugal, the forcados style of fighting is certainly a major test of agility, bravery and technique. Bulls that fight well are often allowed to live and are kept for breeding. The symbolism and metaphors are the same, the collateral damage somewhat less.



I am sorry for the death of Victor Barrio, human lives are not directly comparable with those of a bull, but every torero knows that s/he is staring death in the face; that's what they are challenging themselves with. Remove the threat and you remove the very reason for the spectacle.

Thanks for this.
I'm glad they found a more humane of doing this and honestly would hate to see it die, for the same reasons Goshin mentioned.

 

[Andalublue]

If it dies a natural death from disinterest within the culture in which it originated, I have no issues with that. Cultures change....

They do indeed. One thing I didn't mention however is that the whole issue is a big political football with huge overtones of class and patronage. Most of the big interests within the Fiesta Nacional are owned by the señorial (aristocratic) families and was hugely supported and promoted by the fascist dictator, Francisco Franco, hence the pros and cons of the spectacle are rarely debated dispassionately or objectively. There's not a straight left-right split, since down here in the south bullfighting is supported strongly by both ends of the political spectrum, but nationally it does tend to be the right that support it most strongly, and the animal-rights-supporting left that is most opposed.

 

[Goshin]

They do indeed. One thing I didn't mention however is that the whole issue is a big political football with huge overtones of class and patronage. Most of the big interests within the Fiesta Nacional are owned by the señorial (aristocratic) families and was hugely supported and promoted by the fascist dictator, Francisco Franco, hence the pros and cons of the spectacle are rarely debated dispassionately or objectively. There's not a straight left-right split, since down here in the south bullfighting is supported strongly by both ends of the political spectrum, but nationally it does tend to be the right that support it most strongly, and the animal-rights-supporting left that is most opposed.

Ah. Americans such as myself often forget the whole traditional class and patronage issues, or fail to understand their importance. I recently read a sort of treatise on the subject of class distinctions and the obsession with competition and dominance in Latin America, which was very enlightening. We have rich and poor in America, but we don't really have "class" in quite the same sense.

 

[Andalublue]

Ah. Americans such as myself often forget the whole traditional class and patronage issues, or fail to understand their importance. I recently read a sort of treatise on the subject of class distinctions and the obsession with competition and dominance in Latin America, which was very enlightening. We have rich and poor in America, but we don't really have "class" in quite the same sense.

No, you don't. Lucky you!

Although class isn't quite as big an obsession here in Spain as it is in England, it still exists and class tensions are evident in all sorts of areas. The return of the monarchy didn't help tbh. It's much more evident in Castile and the north than in the east and south, but it's still there, under the surface.

 

[Threegoofs]

I'ts been banned in two areas, not half, and your bias detracts from your account of the attendance.

Yes, it's only been banned in a portion- but the popularity is apparently plummeted through much of Spain, according to the Spaniards I talked to.

And your powers of observation are just as sharp as ever...look at the video I posted and estimate the crowd size...

 

[FieldTheorist]

[h=1][/h]http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36756723

Serious note, I don't like seeing people die, I really do have nothing but sympathy for his family.

That being said.

Good for the bulls. I've been to 2 real no **** bullfights, in Spain. They are interesting, but ultimately the bulls die and it's not really pretty. However it's been going on for quite a while, and the bulls from time to time get to wreck havoc and well, I cheer for them. Weird I know, but as long as they want to have bull fighting, fine, but don't cry if the bull wins.

My thoughts?

If you get into a ring with a bull --which more often than not you've hooked needles into it in order to make it furious-- and then try to piss it off more, and then it kills you, you know I call that? A rational, probably moral outcome.


Spaniards are the most anti-animal rights culture I've ever seen in my life. The commonness of the cruelty to animals is mind-boggling. I don't care if you kill animals in fast and painless ways, but to sit there and torture animals for no goddamn reason other than your own amusement (or in the food industry, laziness), I'm not going to cry when the animals that can fight back, do fight back.

 

[BitterPill]

I get that and the multiple metaphors of the Corrida are powerful, but I'd argue that it's deeply anachronistic. There's a difference between not overly sanitising modern life and conducting ritualised slaughter. I don't doubt the courage of the toreros for one second. I've seen corridas up close and both in the tercio de varas where the bull is fresh and will charge at anything, and later in the tercio de muerte when torero and bull face off within a pace or two of each other, it's terrifying. A bull of 600kg against a man of 70kg is never a foregone conclusion, as this death proves.

I think my point is that civilised attitudes towards the profligate and arbitrary use of animals for entertainment or pageant are changing, and I think that's to be welcomed. There are plenty of other activities where humans (predominantly men) can test their bravery, skill, and nerve without also demonstrating their callousness and cruelty. I think that ethically those two weaknesses of character detract greatly from the qualities they are attempting to display.

There are even forms of bullfighting where the result for the bull is not always a prolonged and painful death. In Portugal, the forcados style of fighting is certainly a major test of agility, bravery and technique. Bulls that fight well are often allowed to live and are kept for breeding. The symbolism and metaphors are the same, the collateral damage somewhat less.



I am sorry for the death of Victor Barrio, human lives are not directly comparable with those of a bull, but every torero knows that s/he is staring death in the face; that's what they are challenging themselves with. Remove the threat and you remove the very reason for the spectacle.

Next time I'm in Portugal, I'm going to a bullfight. Also, congrats to Portugal for winning the Euro 2016 tournament!

 

[Serenity]

I don't accept that it could be considered normal or acceptable to intentionally mistreat an animal.

The tradition argument is nuts and carries no weight with me at all. Slavery, witchcraft and child sacrifice were also once regularly practiced. We've moved on. Well, at least some of us have.

 

[Andalublue]

Next time I'm in Portugal, I'm going to a bullfight.

Make sure you check beforehand that it's a corrida a forcados. Not all are.

Also, congrats to Portugal for winning the Euro 2016 tournament!

Frankly, that game was as cruel as many a corrida I've seen. Ugly, ugly football!

 

[Andalublue]

The tradition argument is nuts and carries no weight with me at all. Slavery, witchcraft and child sacrifice were also once regularly practiced. We've moved on. Well, at least some of us have.

I completely agree, but as you know, Spain is a deeply divided society, both politically and socially. One side of that divide is traditional, ultra-catholic, pro-bullfighting Spain for whom 'our traditions' are seen as virtually divinely ordained. To suggest La Lidia is unacceptable is, for many, the very epitome of being unspanish, unpatriotic and tantamount to being a declaration of communism.

 

[tres borrachos]

Not criticizing you or your position, but I have to ask: Exactly, realistically, what did you think you'd be able to accomplish?

Um, to bring attention to the problems. The same reason anyone tries to raise awareness of anything. There are many groups who have been doing this for decades. It has had a profound impact on bullfighting so far.

 

[AtlantaAdonis]

'Murica!

We don't care if millions of cows and bulls spend months of torment in miserable conditions of factory farms as long as we get our triple quarter pounder with bacon and cheese at a decent price. But if a bull spends a few minutes in an arena entertaining guests it's "zurrrr muh gurrr animal cruelt!" Because producing tons of unhealthy beef we don't need that will be thrown away is acceptable, but nooooo,not entertainment! It's all gotta be outta sight, outta mind!

 

[Andalublue]

'Murica!

We don't care if millions of cows and bulls spend months of torment in miserable conditions of factory farms as long as we get our triple quarter pounder with bacon and cheese at a decent price. But if a bull spends a few minutes in an arena entertaining guests it's "zurrrr muh gurrr animal cruelt!" Because producing tons of unhealthy beef we don't need that will be thrown away is acceptable, but nooooo,not entertainment! It's all gotta be outta sight, outta mind!

i didn't really want to get side-tracked into discussion about factory farming, but I agree that that's another, more glaring example of animal cruelty that's not limited to Spain, France, and Latin America. One kind of cruelty doesn't really make another any more acceptable however, and it's frankly a bit off-topic.

 

[AtlantaAdonis]

i didn't really want to get side-tracked into discussion about factory farming, but I agree that that's another, more glaring example of animal cruelty that's not limited to Spain, France, and Latin America. One kind of cruelty doesn't really make another any more acceptable however, and it's frankly a bit off-topic.

It is off-topic, I am just saying it doesn't make sense to only be opposed to animal cruelty when it's for public viewing. Being opposed to animal cruelty only when it's not something you don't indulge in is BS.