Just as an observation point... something for all of you on both sides of the aisle to remember as one side blames the other for what happened. The ideology is not the problem... for two reasons. Firstly, it is people who choose how to respond to their beliefs. Two people can have the same beliefs and both can respond and react to those beliefs completely differently. And secondly, anyone who uses the actions of an extremist to condemn an entire group... NOT just the extremists of that group, doesn't know what they are talking about and are just making invalid and ridiculous overgeneralizations, probably based on their own invalid biases. So... leftwingers... please remember this when you foolishly try to condemn right wing ideology for what happened in Milwaukee.
You may now return to your regularly scheduled foolish partisan bashing.
Just as an observation point... something for all of you on both sides of the aisle to remember as one side blames the other for what happened. The ideology is not the problem... for two reasons. Firstly, it is people who choose how to respond to their beliefs. Two people can have the same beliefs and both can respond and react to those beliefs completely differently. And secondly, anyone who uses the actions of an extremist to condemn an entire group... NOT just the extremists of that group, doesn't know what they are talking about and are just making invalid and ridiculous overgeneralizations, probably based on their own invalid biases. So... leftwingers... please remember this when you foolishly try to condemn right wing ideology for what happened in Milwaukee.
You may now return to your regularly scheduled foolish partisan bashing.
I believe it is the extremism that much of the right is embracing that is the frightening part. How far is Donald Trump from this maniac, ideologically?
I did not think about it that way (my comment was about someone so ignorant and blinded by hate,As in, in wouldn't have been so bad if it was a mosque?
If the ideology, the ideas, are the rationale for the actions, then yes, the ideology is a problem.
Please, do continue to try to muddy the water, cloud the issues.
Not at all. It's how someone interprets and then acts on what they interpret.
No, I'd imagine that's your job. I'm clearing things up.
No, you aren't.
This is an argument to divorce ideology from action. It is totally false. The values you act upon can be legit, rational...or not. Those values can be judged. Your argument is to remove judgement of ideologies, an argument that ideas are all neutral, no matter how extreme that idea appears.Not at all. It's how someone interprets and then acts on what they interpret.
Making false arguments is NOT clearing things up at all, other than making clear what kind of arguments a person makes.No, I'd imagine that's your job. I'm clearing things up.
I'm actually a pretty Conservative Jew.
Just as an observation point... something for all of you on both sides of the aisle to remember as one side blames the other for what happened. The ideology is not the problem... for two reasons. Firstly, it is people who choose how to respond to their beliefs. Two people can have the same beliefs and both can respond and react to those beliefs completely differently. And secondly, anyone who uses the actions of an extremist to condemn an entire group... NOT just the extremists of that group, doesn't know what they are talking about and are just making invalid and ridiculous overgeneralizations, probably based on their own invalid biases. So... leftwingers... please remember this when you foolishly try to condemn right wing ideology for what happened in Milwaukee.
You may now return to your regularly scheduled foolish partisan bashing.
:lamoGood point, because as we know 'right wing ideology' has nothing to do with racism.:lamo
A BETTER idea is for members of that ideology to attack their own extremists. The more rightwingers that come out and condemn this guy and his beliefs, the more isolated he becomes... and the less most people will associate him with them.
RWA's do trend towards racism.....but how in the world does that compare to the left describing classism? It is not as if the left created classes, they point out that it exists. That is hardly the same thing as participating in racist acts.No more than "left wing ideology" has to do with classism.
Funny, isn't that what you were just trying to do with a false equivalence?For ****s sakes...can we stop throwing out wide sweeping ignorant broad stroke statements about an entire span of an ideology due to what some morons on the most fringe ends of it happen to do?
But you just made the argument that the ideology is not the problem.There are extremists on both sides of the coin. I prefer to condemn the extremists rather than attacking the entire ideology. A BETTER idea is for members of that ideology to attack their own extremists. The more rightwingers that come out and condemn this guy and his beliefs, the more isolated he becomes... and the less most people will associate him with them.
Funny how morons tend to trip over themselves decrying a 'rush to judgement' re acts of terrorism in the middle east yet they have no problem doing so in this case. You yourself dont even have the decency to allow the blood to dry before you turn a tragic incident perpetrated by a vulgar ugly human being into a mindless partisan attack. The truly sad thing...your trainwreck partisan mindset is at least as repugnant than the asshole that committed the act if not more so. He perpetrated the act...you bathe in it and attempt to score political points. Speaks volumes about the shooter...and...you.It turns out the 'speculation' that the guy was a white supremacist and that the shootings were racially motiviated wasn't quite as 'mindless' as those on the Far Right wanted to believe.
In April 2009, DHS issued an intelligence assessment, co-authored by Johnson, titled " Rightwing Extremism: Current Economic and Political Climate Fueling Resurgence in Radicalization and Recruitment ." The document was one of many threat assessments shared between DHS and state and local law enforcement agencies to keep them apprised of potential and looming threats, and warned of a surge in right-wing extremism due to the election of the country's first black president and the economic recession.The reality is many members are condemning this guy and his beliefs. The issue is that in the midst of doing that we have to also correct the ignorant bull**** being slung around suggesting that, simultaneously as we blast this guy for being a horrible person and ignorant ****, we operate ideologically due to racism beause that's supposedly inherent to "right wing ideology" as a whole. It's hard to JUST condemn the extremists on your side, and you know I'm one that's quick to do that, when simultaneous to doing so you're being referred to as someone whose thought process is somehow inherently racist, your regional location means you're inherently racist, or in other circumstances that you're a step away from being Fred Phelps.
I agree with you regarding extremists on both sides of the coin, and on the fact right wingers need to condemn guys like this. I'm simply saying that some of the reason why right wingers spend times in these threads away from condemning the guy is because were also having to argue that White Supremist views isn't somehow integral to the Right.
This is an argument to divorce ideology from action. It is totally false. The values you act upon can be legit, rational...or not. Those values can be judged. Your argument is to remove judgement of ideologies, an argument that ideas are all neutral, no matter how extreme that idea appears.
No more than "left wing ideology" has to do with classism.
For ****s sakes...can we stop throwing out wide sweeping ignorant broad stroke statements about an entire span of an ideology due to what some morons on the most fringe ends of it happen to do?
Sorry, but the argument Capt is making is that the ideas are not the problem.It's not that the views of white supremacy/neo-nazi-ism arne't problematic.
The reality is many members are condemning this guy and his beliefs. The issue is that in the midst of doing that we have to also correct the ignorant bull**** being slung around suggesting that, simultaneously as we blast this guy for being a horrible person and ignorant ****, we operate ideologically due to racism beause that's supposedly inherent to "right wing ideology" as a whole. It's hard to JUST condemn the extremists on your side, and you know I'm one that's quick to do that, when simultaneous to doing so you're being referred to as someone whose thought process is somehow inherently racist, your regional location means you're inherently racist, or in other circumstances that you're a step away from being Fred Phelps.
I agree with you regarding extremists on both sides of the coin, and on the fact right wingers need to condemn guys like this. I'm simply saying that some of the reason why right wingers spend times in these threads away from condemning the guy is because were also having to argue that White Supremist views isn't somehow integral to the Right.
Funny how morons tend to trip over themselves decrying a 'rush to judgement' re acts of terrorism in the middle east yet they have no problem doing so in this case. You yourself dont even have the decency to allow the blood to dry before you turn a tragic incident perpetrated by a vulgar ugly human being into a mindless partisan attack. The truly sad thing...your trainwreck partisan mindset is at least as repugnant than the asshole that committed the act if not more so. He perpetrated the act...you bathe in it and attempt to score political points. Speaks volumes about the shooter...and...you.
Sorry, but the argument Capt is making is that the ideas are not the problem.
Wade Michael Page, who officials say shot and killed six people in a shooting at a Sikh temple Sunday in Wisconsin, was a decorated Army veteran psychological warfare specialist and white supremacist who has been watched with concern by anti-hate groups for more than 10 years.
A member of a racist skinhead punk band, Mr. Page, who was killed in a shootout with police, had also tried to make purchases from the National Alliance, a neo-Nazi organization, according to Heidi Beirich, director of the the Intelligence Program at the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC).
"We've been tracking him for more than a decade," says Ms. Beirich. The SPLC has long warned of the dangerous ties between white supremacist groups and the US military. "We know there have been a lot of white supremacists in the military," Beirich adds. The problem was a source of particular concern for the SPLC in the mid-2000s, when the civil rights group warned the US military about a spate of extremist activity among US forces in 2006. At that time, the Pentagon "steadfastly denied that a problem existed and insisted that its ‘zero tolerance’ policy was sufficient to keep organized racists out of its ranks,” according to the SPLC.
The problem was that while the US military had banned “active participation” in extremist groups, it did not specify prohibitions against, for example, posting to white supremacist social media pages.
[.......]
Three years earlier, in 2006, the SPLC had published “A Few Bad Men,” a report noting that “large numbers” of neo-Nazi skinheads were joining the armed forces “to acquire combat and weapons training – skills that could be used to commit terrorist acts against targets in the US.”
[........]
White supremacist groups including the National Alliance continue to have active “outreach programs” to recruit members of the US military into their organizations, says Beirich. “They have literally reached out to people from the military to come work for them,” Beirich adds, noting that the groups prize the fighting and training expertise that potential recruits develop in the US military.....
In April 2009, DHS issued an intelligence assessment, co-authored by Johnson, titled " Rightwing Extremism: Current Economic and Political Climate Fueling Resurgence in Radicalization and Recruitment ." The document was one of many threat assessments shared between DHS and state and local law enforcement agencies to keep them apprised of potential and looming threats, and warned of a surge in right-wing extremism due to the election of the country's first black president and the economic recession.
Although the report was intended only for distribution to law enforcement agencies, it was immediately leaked to the media causing a political firestorm among conservative pundits, who wrongly suggested that it labeled all conservatives as potential terrorists.
DHS initially defended the report, but within days caved to political pressure and practically disowned it, with Secretary Napolitano apologizing to the American Legion for the report's mention of military veterans. But DHS did more than just publicly buckle under the political weight of conservative critics. According to Johnson, the department effectively dismantled his intelligence team following the right’s uproar.
In an in-depth interview published in the Southern Poverty Law Center’s Intelligence Report , Johnson reveals the level of sway the political right had in thwarting intelligence work on right-wing extremism. He says DHS deliberately "mischaracterized the report as unauthorized, even though it had passed through proper channels" and "instituted restrictive policies that brought the important work of his unit to a virtual standstill." As a result, Johnson "left DHS in dismay and was followed by almost all the members of his team, leaving a single analyst where there had been six." In comparison, there are at least 25 analysts devoted to tracking Islamic terrorism.
When questioned about Johnson’s claims -- which have been confirmed by current and former department officials in the Washington Post – DHS officials, speaking on condition of anonymity, have repeatedly disputed his account and insist that "the level of activity by right-wing extremist groups has remained consistent over the past few years." In addition, they claim "the perception of increased extremist activity may be due to increased awareness of the threat by the government and the public." But the numbers beg to differ.
How the Political Right Bullied the Department of Homeland Security Into Ignoring the Threat of Right-Wing Extremism | Alternet
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