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Mass. Legislature approves plan to bypass Electoral College

jujuman13

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Renae

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Mass. Legislature approves plan to bypass Electoral College - Local News Updates - MetroDesk - The Boston Globe

Quote(The Massachusetts Legislature has approved a new law intended to bypass the Electoral College system and ensure that the winner of the presidential election is determined by the national popular vote.)

Do you think that the time has come whereby the Electoral College system should be abandoned?
Nope, if Mass wants to throw it's votes away to the mob, let it.

The EC is there to protect smaller states and to keep politicvs national, not limited to high population areas. There are very good reasons for the EC, and people that want a direct democracy fail to realize we don't live in a Democracy, we live in a Representative Republic.

I can't wait till a Republican wins the popular vote, but loses the Mass vote, you just watch this rule get ignored.
 

Harshaw

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A state can choose its electors by reading tea leaves if the legislature thereof so chooses. But this scheme is stupid. It'll lead to even more haphazard, unrepresentative, unfair distribution of electors.

Imagine telling all the people of MA that their state's electoral votes are ALL going to the Republican candidate because more people voted Republican nationwide, even though MA voted 2 to 1 for the Democrat.

Then tell them that other states which voted Democrat are sending their electoral votes in FOR that Democrat. There will be riots.

What complete, unfettered idiocy.
 

The Dane

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Nope, if Mass wants to throw it's votes away to the mob, let it.

The EC is there to protect smaller states and to keep politicvs national, not limited to high population areas. There are very good reasons for the EC, and people that want a direct democracy fail to realize we don't live in a Democracy, we live in a Representative Republic.

I can't wait till a Republican wins the popular vote, but loses the Mass vote, you just watch this rule get ignored.
The way the president is elected, either by a national popular vote, or by the electoral college has nothing to do with a division between a Democracy and a Representative Republic. The constituion guaruntee's a representative republic form of government and does not carry those ideas over to the election of the President.

Also, the EC does not protect small states, it greatly weakens their role in the election. Candidates will campaign and pay attention to battle ground states leaving the vast majority of smaller states completely out of the picture. I don't know what you mean when you say it will keep politics "national". An EC does very opposite of keeping politics "national" as candidates focus on battle ground states, not a national picture.

Also it should be noted that they are not alone in this decision:

Illinois, New Jersey, Hawaii, Maryland, and Washington have already approved the legislation...
 
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Harry Guerrilla

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The way the president is elected, either by a national popular vote, or by the electoral college has nothing to do with a division between a Democracy and a Representative Republic. The constituion guaruntee's a representative republic form of government and does not carry those ideas over to the election of the President.

Also, the EC does not protect small states, it greatly weakens their role in the election. Candidates will campaign and pay attention to battle ground states leaving the vast majority of smaller states completely out of the picture. I don't know what you mean when you say it will keep politics "national". An EC does very opposite of keeping politics "national" as candidates focus on battle ground states, not a national picture.
Popular vote doesn't fix this.
It means that California and New York have the biggest choice in deciding who becomes president.

Pretty unrepresentative if you ask me.
 

The Dane

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Popular vote doesn't fix this.
It means that California and New York have the biggest choice in deciding who becomes president.

Pretty unrepresentative if you ask me.
Actually I don't believe you are correct. California and New York both have very high electoral points, and they are all awarded to a candidate because those individual states adhere to the EC. If there was a national popular vote, it would make the large population of Republicans in California and New York much more relevant.
 
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Harry Guerrilla

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Once again, the elections do not have to fall in line with the idea of a representative government. How the government officials are elected is very different from how they govern, and the constitution does not mend the two ideas together.
Yea it unfortunate.

I'm not a fan of the popularity contest that is the presidential election.
A whole lot of fluff, very little serious consideration.
 

The Dane

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Yea it unfortunate.

I'm not a fan of the popularity contest that is the presidential election.
A whole lot of fluff, very little serious consideration.
I edited my last post after you had replied.
 

Renae

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The way the president is elected, either by a national popular vote, or by the electoral college has nothing to do with a division between a Democracy and a Representative Republic. The constituion guaruntee's a representative republic form of government and does not carry those ideas over to the election of the President.

Also, the EC does not protect small states, it greatly weakens their role in the election. Candidates will campaign and pay attention to battle ground states leaving the vast majority of smaller states completely out of the picture. I don't know what you mean when you say it will keep politics "national". An EC does very opposite of keeping politics "national" as candidates focus on battle ground states, not a national picture.

Also it should be noted that they are not alone in this decision:
Thsoe states don't believe in their voters mattering. Hey that's their choice.

However, you are absolutely wrong in your assessment of the EC. IF the win was just Popular vote, which is Democracy, not the EC Rep. Repub. Candidates would ignore rural areas, low population states and areas. Focus on the top say 10 US Cities. They would be what mattered.
 

The Dane

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They do have some but not as much as there are Democrats.
Either way it doesn't matter because they have the largest population so they will have the most sway.

My state is largely ignored as it is, except for Atlanta.
You're not understanding the point. I live in California, while California usually always votes Democratic, there are huge numbers of citizens in California who vote Republican, and because of the EC these votes are made irrelevant because while California always goes blue, it is usually roughly on a 50/40%. That makes 40% of California's population (who are voting Republican) completely irrelevant in the election.

The fact that California as a state would hold sway in the election seems to be a matter of pride for you, but the fact remains is that California is a very influential and powerful state as a whole. However, the allowance of a national popular vote would greatly benefit Republicans concerning California.
 
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Harry Guerrilla

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You're not understanding the point. I live in California, while California usually always votes Democratic, there are huge numbers of citizens in California who vote Republican, and because of the EC these votes are made irrelevant because while California always goes blue, it is usually roughly on a 50/40%. That makes 40% of California's population (who are voting Republican) completely irrelevant in the election.

The fact that California as a state would hold sway in the election seems to be a matter of pride for you, but the fact remains is that California is a very influential and powerful state as a whole. However, the allowance of a national popular vote would greatly benefit Republicans concerning California.
That doesn't benefit me in the least.
I don't want Republicans or Democrats to win.
 

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Thsoe states don't believe in their voters mattering. Hey that's their choice.

However, you are absolutely wrong in your assessment of the EC. IF the win was just Popular vote, which is Democracy, not the EC Rep. Repub. Candidates would ignore rural areas, low population states and areas. Focus on the top say 10 US Cities. They would be what mattered.
Exactly..

To the poster who said NY was mostly democrat. Well, yeah it is, but everything west of NY city is mostly conservative.. :)

Tim-
 

ludahai

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The way the president is elected, either by a national popular vote, or by the electoral college has nothing to do with a division between a Democracy and a Representative Republic. The constituion guaruntee's a representative republic form of government and does not carry those ideas over to the election of the President.

Also, the EC does not protect small states, it greatly weakens their role in the election. Candidates will campaign and pay attention to battle ground states leaving the vast majority of smaller states completely out of the picture. I don't know what you mean when you say it will keep politics "national". An EC does very opposite of keeping politics "national" as candidates focus on battle ground states, not a national picture.

Also it should be noted that they are not alone in this decision:
Wrong. The EC gives smaller states a larger proportion of the electoral vote for president then they would have in a direct popular vote system...
 

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Wrong. The EC gives smaller states a larger proportion of the electoral vote for president then they would have in a direct popular vote system...
Exactly, but the Progressive talking point is to push the lie that the EC somehow "hurts" smaller states. It's an idea that appeals to those that have little understanding of why we do things we do.
 

ludahai

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You're not understanding the point. I live in California, while California usually always votes Democratic, there are huge numbers of citizens in California who vote Republican, and because of the EC these votes are made irrelevant because while California always goes blue, it is usually roughly on a 50/40%. That makes 40% of California's population (who are voting Republican) completely irrelevant in the election.

The fact that California as a state would hold sway in the election seems to be a matter of pride for you, but the fact remains is that California is a very influential and powerful state as a whole. However, the allowance of a national popular vote would greatly benefit Republicans concerning California.
But you could same the same in states like Texas which are large and lean Republican. And your point does nothing to address the relative importance of smaller states in the two systems...
 

Gipper

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Careful what you wish for. From what I've seen, many blue states win their electoral votes by relatively narrow margins, while a HUGE chunk of red states have at least 60% of their populations voting Republican.

If it starts getting to the point where you split like Nebraska, even a chunk of California Republicans can really put a dent into the left's plans.
 

The Dane

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Thsoe states don't believe in their voters mattering. Hey that's their choice.

However, you are absolutely wrong in your assessment of the EC. IF the win was just Popular vote, which is Democracy, not the EC Rep. Repub. Candidates would ignore rural areas, low population states and areas. Focus on the top say 10 US Cities. They would be what mattered.
I understand your logic, and if this was true then I would agree with you. But I don't think you assessment is correct. For example, in the 2004 election, Democrats took Miami, but they did not take Florida. They also took Cleveland, but they did not take Ohio. When candidates go to battle ground states, they usually do not campaign in the metropolises, and instead focus in urban areas. To put it in perspective, the 25 biggest cities only account for roughly 12% of the population.
 

The Dane

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That doesn't benefit me in the least.
I don't want Republicans or Democrats to win.
Ah yes I see you are Libertarian. I'm not quite sure how either the EC or the national popular vote would effect third party candidates.
 

ludahai

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Careful what you wish for. From what I've seen, many blue states win their electoral votes by relatively narrow margins, while a HUGE chunk of red states have at least 60% of their populations voting Republican.

If it starts getting to the point where you split like Nebraska, even a chunk of California Republicans can really put a dent into the left's plans.


I actually like the way Maine and Nebraska do it... award 1 EV for each congressional district and 2EVs for state-wide victory. However, serious precautions against Gerrymandering would have to take place for such a system to truly be practical in larger states...
 

The Dane

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But you could same the same in states like Texas which are large and lean Republican. And your point does nothing to address the relative importance of smaller states in the two systems...
What do you mean by the "importance of smaller states". Under the EC those smaller states are simply given smaller EC points relative to California, NY, Texas.
 
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apdst

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Obama better hope this doesn't happen.
 

The Dane

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I actually like the way Maine and Nebraska do it... award 1 EV for each congressional district and 2EVs for state-wide victory. However, serious precautions against Gerrymandering would have to take place for such a system to truly be practical in larger states...
That is also a very good reason why I don't like the EC because, intentional or not, there is still always the possibility that the boundries of districts will effect the elections, regardless of if they were drawn with a bias or not.
 

ludahai

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What do you mean by the "importance of smaller states". Under the EC those smaller states are simply given smaller EC points relative to California, NY, Texas.
not exactly... the smaller states have a larger proportion of votes in the EC than they would have in a popular vote system...
 
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