• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every persons position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Marine le Pen woos Farage again

Infinite Chaos

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 28, 2007
Messages
18,504
Reaction score
8,592
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
The leader of the French far right-wing Front National (FN) party has said that she would welcome collaboration with UKIP with "open arms".Marine Le Pen told BBC Newsnight ideas UKIP leader Nigel Farage defends are "very similar" to those of her party.
In a statement, UKIP said it was "not interested in any deal" with Ms Le Pen or her party because of "prejudice and anti-Semitism in particular" in the FN. Link
Marine and Nigel also seem to share an open admiration for Putin so is it just a question of time for UKIP to join a coalition with Front Nationale or is Farage running petrified with being seen as linked to the French version of the National Front / BNP?
 

Rainman05

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 14, 2012
Messages
10,032
Reaction score
4,964
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Marine and Nigel also seem to share an open admiration for Putin so is it just a question of time for UKIP to join a coalition with Front Nationale or is Farage running petrified with being seen as linked to the French version of the National Front / BNP?
They're both horrid people. It's quite amazing, to me, how their mind works. They think that the EU is a greater threat to their nations well being than Putin is.

I mean, it may be so, seeing as how the UK and France are some of the least dependent on russian gas and petrol in the EU. Almost completely independent of it actually, so ofc, they view the EU as the bigger threat. But any nationalist movement west of Germany and Italy included, would be almost suicidal if they were to demand the dismantling of the EU because it would literally kill the best chance for a counterbalance to Russian influence in Europe. Better the devil you know, as it were.

So what I am hoping is that all sensible people punish these morons for their open admiration of a man who clearly has no considerations for what France and the UK stand for. Human rights and rule of law.
 

Infinite Chaos

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 28, 2007
Messages
18,504
Reaction score
8,592
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
They're both horrid people -- So what I am hoping is that all sensible people punish these morons for their open admiration of a man who clearly has no considerations for what France and the UK stand for. Human rights and rule of law.
Likely in the UK general and regional elections however Front National can sometimes poll up to 30% of the electorate.

Farage knows it's a kiss of death for his party so he's desperately trying to keep his distance in public.
 

Manc Skipper

Wrinkly member
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 25, 2008
Messages
33,455
Reaction score
22,261
Location
Southern England
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Liberal
I watched the interview. Le Pen was quite slippery when pressed, and objecting "You are more interested in the questions you ask, than the answers!" was a little petulant! She can't be allowed to attack the lovely Ms Kuenssberg like that!
 

joG

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 27, 2013
Messages
43,839
Reaction score
9,637
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Independent
Marine and Nigel also seem to share an open admiration for Putin so is it just a question of time for UKIP to join a coalition with Front Nationale or is Farage running petrified with being seen as linked to the French version of the National Front / BNP?
I really don't think that Farage likes racists. Like Lucke in Germany all he wants is a rational approach to the EU, which would be devastating for Eu- and Europhiles.
I understand why the EU lobbyists want to insinuate he is one, but that is just the way Eurocrats and their acolytes have to win elections now that it has become obvious that their only arguments are populist and the damage they have brought down on the European populations is so large it can no longer be hidden from view.
 

gunner

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 20, 2007
Messages
6,548
Reaction score
2,875
Location
uk
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
I really don't think that Farage likes racists. Like Lucke in Germany all he wants is a rational approach to the EU, which would be devastating for Eu- and Europhiles.
I understand why the EU lobbyists want to insinuate he is one, but that is just the way Eurocrats and their acolytes have to win elections now that it has become obvious that their only arguments are populist and the damage they have brought down on the European populations is so large it can no longer be hidden from view.
"Rational" that very much depends on what side of the fence you sit :)

Paul
 

joG

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 27, 2013
Messages
43,839
Reaction score
9,637
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Independent
"Rational" that very much depends on what side of the fence you sit :)

Paul
That I do not think correct. Rationality is not generally thought to be a "side of the fence" type of thing. What differs are the interests one holds relative to another party or the aggregate of the population. So I would not say that for the individual Eurocrat, their socio-economic group nor the people the pay to do their lobbying are in themselves acting irrationally. They are not. They are maximizing their utility and pushing their individual interests. Sorrily this behavior has reduced Welfare for society and for the majority of the populace compared to what it could have been, had that been the goal.

And yes, I know that the EU is economically better than no free trade in Europe. But in the form it has been given, it is less good economically than it would be as a simple free trade zone without the jingle-bells, myths and wasted money. These latter have disintegrated the legitimacy in large portions of the populations, have brought havoc to large populations and have actually been responsible for very much economical and physical misery and even many deaths. It has been really quite irresponsible and, though very lucrative for certain relatively small circles, quite an presentation of irrational group behavior. At least this is true, if seeking optimization of the societies' welfare was the objective.
 

PeteEU

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 11, 2006
Messages
35,340
Reaction score
12,161
Location
Denmark
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
I really don't think that Farage likes racists.
Maybe but he loves having them around in his party.

Like Lucke in Germany all he wants is a rational approach to the EU, which would be devastating for Eu- and Europhiles.
No, he wants power. He could care less about the EU as long as they give him money and he can gain more and more political power in the UK.

I understand why the EU lobbyists want to insinuate he is one, but that is just the way Eurocrats and their acolytes have to win elections now that it has become obvious that their only arguments are populist and the damage they have brought down on the European populations is so large it can no longer be hidden from view.
You dont have to insinuate it lol! UKIP is part of the EDF group in Europe, a group which houses the far right racist anti-semtic groups. ... he is actually the LEADER of this group. A person is defined by the company he/she keeps.. when some of his best friends are the Northern League and other far right racist xenophobic parties across Europe.. then well. But then again the Front National Parliament members are without group because they are so disgusting that no one wants them to be members, and that could be why they are sucking up to UKIP... so to be able to join their fellow racists in EDF
 
Last edited:

PeteEU

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 11, 2006
Messages
35,340
Reaction score
12,161
Location
Denmark
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
Do you mean "EFD"

Home

I can't find an EDF.
Yea, EDF is a power company no?...

They change names every few years .. think the group has had like 6 different names since they were originally formed.
 

joG

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 27, 2013
Messages
43,839
Reaction score
9,637
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Independent
Maybe but he loves having them around in his party.

No, he wants power. He could care less about the EU as long as they give him money and he can gain more and more political power in the UK.

You dont have to insinuate it lol! UKIP is part of the EDF group in Europe, a group which houses the far right racist anti-semtic groups. ... he is actually the LEADER of this group. A person is defined by the company he/she keeps.. when some of his best friends are the Northern League and other far right racist xenophobic parties across Europe.. then well. But then again the Front National Parliament members are without group because they are so disgusting that no one wants them to be members, and that could be why they are sucking up to UKIP... so to be able to join their fellow racists in EDF
So you say. But as I pointed out, you would say so. There is no argument that justifies voting for the other parties after the total mess their dishonest and deceitful actions willfully caused. For many in the populations they had sworn to protect, the behavior of these politicians was existentially devastating to the point in very, very many cases of painful death. I find it somewhat astounding, that anyone with easy access to internationally available information and who is interested in politics can in any way side with that type of people and their despicable behavior, if they were not brainwashed or belong to that socioeconomic group. Do you not understand, those people belong in jail?
 

PeteEU

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 11, 2006
Messages
35,340
Reaction score
12,161
Location
Denmark
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
So you say. But as I pointed out, you would say so. There is no argument that justifies voting for the other parties after the total mess their dishonest and deceitful actions willfully caused.
Again... what dishonest and deceitful actions?

For many in the populations they had sworn to protect, the behavior of these politicians was existentially devastating to the point in very, very many cases of painful death. I find it somewhat astounding, that anyone with easy access to internationally available information and who is interested in politics can in any way side with that type of people and their despicable behavior, if they were not brainwashed or belong to that socioeconomic group. Do you not understand, those people belong in jail?
What laws have they broken?
 

joG

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 27, 2013
Messages
43,839
Reaction score
9,637
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Independent
Again... what dishonest and deceitful actions?

What laws have they broken?
Maybe you did not understand, what I wrote. Both of your questions were answered.
In any event, if you do not think that knowingly doing persons you have sworn to protect existential harm is a crime, that makes it rather improbable that you want to see it that way. We could look at individual incidence like the ESM, not checking the Greek books, the seedy interpretation of the EU Constitution as a non-constitution or the breech of the Maastricht Treaty. But you will only say that that is not important as it was done "for political reasons" as you did elsewhere. You seem like so many Germans I know that political reasons justify baking the law and makes that legal.
 

joG

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 27, 2013
Messages
43,839
Reaction score
9,637
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Independent
No, he wants power. He could care less about the EU as long as they give him money and he can gain more and more political power in the UK.
You mean like Junkers and Schultz?
But to tell you the truth, I would think that in the case of almost every politician there is a combination of wanting to get your policies done and wanting to live at the same time. If you don't like that you will have to look for persons of private means. But do you really want to exclude everyone else? Or did you just say that because you had no other arguments but mud available?
 

PeteEU

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 11, 2006
Messages
35,340
Reaction score
12,161
Location
Denmark
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
You mean like Junkers and Schultz?
But to tell you the truth, I would think that in the case of almost every politician there is a combination of wanting to get your policies done and wanting to live at the same time. If you don't like that you will have to look for persons of private means. But do you really want to exclude everyone else? Or did you just say that because you had no other arguments but mud available?
There is a huge difference. Junkers and Schultz achieved power in established parties. Farage could not hack it in those parties so he started his own and built it up around malcontent, racists, anti-Semitic, homophobes, xenophobes and sexist pigs.
 

PeteEU

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 11, 2006
Messages
35,340
Reaction score
12,161
Location
Denmark
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
Maybe you did not understand, what I wrote. Both of your questions were answered.
Maybe, but I really cant see where you answered anything substantive.

In any event, if you do not think that knowingly doing persons you have sworn to protect existential harm is a crime, that makes it rather improbable that you want to see it that way.
Existential harm? Politicians are elected to run the country on behalf of us, and as they see as the best way of doing this. If you dont like it, then dont elect them into power.

We could look at individual incidence like the ESM,
And what is wrong with the ESM other than it is late to the game? Are you pissed that no countries had referendums over it? You mean like the massive amounts of referendums there have been on national currencies, their establishment and running right?

not checking the Greek books,
They did check the books, but the procedures put in place were not comprehensive enough to expose the lies of the Greek government and American banks. Funny how you want people in the EU thrown in jail for this, but no mention of the American banks who made it possible to hide all the debt... or the Greek politicians who knowingly hid it from their own people and the rest of Europe... no, blame the European Union for trusting its member governments not to lie to their face... and throw those EU guys in jail for that!

the seedy interpretation of the EU Constitution as a non-constitution
There is no EU constitution. That was voted down. So it is not a seedy interpretation but fact. We have the Treaty of Rome plus add-ons. The fact that you think there is a constitution only shows how little you actually know about the EU.

or the breech of the Maastricht Treaty.
What breach?
 

joG

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 27, 2013
Messages
43,839
Reaction score
9,637
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Independent
There is a huge difference. Junkers and Schultz achieved power in established parties. Farage could not hack it in those parties so he started his own and built it up around malcontent, racists, anti-Semitic, homophobes, xenophobes and sexist pigs.
There you are again flinging mud, or trying to at least. But it was the established parties that willfully brought the catastrophe down on the European populous. It was good that he got out and started a counter movement.
 

joG

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 27, 2013
Messages
43,839
Reaction score
9,637
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Independent
They did check the books, but the procedures put in place were not comprehensive enough to expose the lies of the Greek government and American banks.
You didn't see the interview with Issing of the Bundesbank, where he says that they knew that the Greek numbers were wrong and told the Commission and the German Ministries but did not do the due diligence, because it was politically inopportune? If you didn't see it, you might want to look for it.

As to the rest of the stuff you wrote? I think it would be a waste of time to write a reply, where you actually ask where the Treaty of Maastricht was broken. I cannot credit you don't know that.
 

PeteEU

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 11, 2006
Messages
35,340
Reaction score
12,161
Location
Denmark
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
You didn't see the interview with Issing of the Bundesbank, where he says that they knew that the Greek numbers were wrong and told the Commission and the German Ministries but did not do the due diligence, because it was politically inopportune? If you didn't see it, you might want to look for it.
Yes he made the accusation but never backed it up with any documentation. And we know why the fraud was not picked up on, and it was a lax control system which was in large parts championed by the Bundesbank!

As to the rest of the stuff you wrote? I think it would be a waste of time to write a reply, where you actually ask where the Treaty of Maastricht was broken. I cannot credit you don't know that.
I am asking because I have never heard this accusation outside the far right fanatics and they have never provided any proof what so ever.

But regardless, as long as the countries involved in a treaty of any kind agree to a change or "breach" then it does not really matter does it? The only time you can claim any treaty is broken is if one of the parties unilaterally breaks the treaty without consent of the other treaty underwriters... that is a breach.
 

PeteEU

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 11, 2006
Messages
35,340
Reaction score
12,161
Location
Denmark
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
There you are again flinging mud, or trying to at least. But it was the established parties that willfully brought the catastrophe down on the European populous. It was good that he got out and started a counter movement.
You claim that it is the established parties that are at fault... and have yet to provide a shred of evidence of what fault. Is it that they entered the EU/EEC in the first place? Is that they agreed on our behalf to changes to improve the common market? Is it the ESM or Euro that pisses you off? What is it!? That you were not allowed to directly vote for very complicated things in a national referendum? Is that what you are pissed about?

And there is no mud, but fact. People like Farage cant cut it in established parties because their views are so extreme that no one wants to touch them with a 10 foot pole. There is a reason that people like Glistrup in Denmark started his own party after being a member of the Conservatives for years... he could not cut it, broke the law (tax evasion) and was pissed at the establishment that it resulted in his own party of freaks. Farage is no different, nor Le Pen or any of the other fringe right wing (or left wing) parties out there.

Now I understand fully that parties like UKIP and people like Farage are the result of a discontent with the traditional parties and the economic/social times. But that is exactly why we have to be on our guard for people like Farage and UKIP, so that we dont fall into the same trap as we did the last time we were in this situation back in the 1930s.
 

joG

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 27, 2013
Messages
43,839
Reaction score
9,637
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Independent
Yes he made the accusation but never backed it up with any documentation. And we know why the fraud was not picked up on, and it was a lax control system which was in large parts championed by the Bundesbank!



I am asking because I have never heard this accusation outside the far right fanatics and they have never provided any proof what so ever.

But regardless, as long as the countries involved in a treaty of any kind agree to a change or "breach" then it does not really matter does it? The only time you can claim any treaty is broken is if one of the parties unilaterally breaks the treaty without consent of the other treaty underwriters... that is a breach.
If you really have not heard the case for the Treaty of Maastricht having been broken except by "accusations" by "far right fanatics", you cannot really have much of interest to say about the EU. Why don't you just google "treaty of maastricht broken" for instance? Why I don't believe Germany acted by the rules more than possibly once prior to 2008. But I doubt you are interested.

And no! it is absolutely abominable to say that it is okay for countries to break treaties that have legal status in the countries. That is about the most basic demand of the Rule of Law.
 

joG

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 27, 2013
Messages
43,839
Reaction score
9,637
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Independent
You claim that it is the established parties that are at fault... and have yet to provide a shred of evidence of what fault. Is it that they entered the EU/EEC in the first place? Is that they agreed on our behalf to changes to improve the common market? Is it the ESM or Euro that pisses you off? What is it!? That you were not allowed to directly vote for very complicated things in a national referendum? Is that what you are pissed about?

And there is no mud, but fact. People like Farage cant cut it in established parties because their views are so extreme that no one wants to touch them with a 10 foot pole. There is a reason that people like Glistrup in Denmark started his own party after being a member of the Conservatives for years... he could not cut it, broke the law (tax evasion) and was pissed at the establishment that it resulted in his own party of freaks. Farage is no different, nor Le Pen or any of the other fringe right wing (or left wing) parties out there.

Now I understand fully that parties like UKIP and people like Farage are the result of a discontent with the traditional parties and the economic/social times. But that is exactly why we have to be on our guard for people like Farage and UKIP, so that we dont fall into the same trap as we did the last time we were in this situation back in the 1930s.
As I pointed out, someone that has not heard the Maastricht Treaty has been broken, can't be very well informed about the EU. And someone that thinks that governments should be allowed to break the law of the land is propagating exactly what you are trying to smear Farage with. It is the essence of dictatorship. That is why the EU is such a reprehensible Organization. The Idea of a united Europe is fine, but not at the cost of the Rule of Law. And that is exactly what the established parties have done. When you make your comparison with the 1930s it should be the established parties you point at as the comparable danger.
 

PeteEU

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 11, 2006
Messages
35,340
Reaction score
12,161
Location
Denmark
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
If you really have not heard the case for the Treaty of Maastricht having been broken except by "accusations" by "far right fanatics", you cannot really have much of interest to say about the EU. Why don't you just google "treaty of maastricht broken" for instance? Why I don't believe Germany acted by the rules more than possibly once prior to 2008. But I doubt you are interested.

And no! it is absolutely abominable to say that it is okay for countries to break treaties that have legal status in the countries. That is about the most basic demand of the Rule of Law.
And again I ask you to provide proof and you tell me to google it? Guess what I did, and found nothing about "breaking the treaty".
 

joG

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 27, 2013
Messages
43,839
Reaction score
9,637
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Independent
And again I ask you to provide proof and you tell me to google it? Guess what I did, and found nothing about "breaking the treaty".
Do you know what the Maastricht Treaty is about and what it says?
 

PeteEU

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 11, 2006
Messages
35,340
Reaction score
12,161
Location
Denmark
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
Do you know what the Maastricht Treaty is about and what it says?
Do you?

And regardless this is about Farage who has been caught again.

UKIP had their big launch party yesterday and it bombed big time. Farage has problems that is for sure.. may it be that he is married to one of those evil Europeans and a German at that!, or using an average voter picture of a woman with dark features.. who is actually his assistant and not an average voter.

Or it is the polls that show his part as being a protest party not a mainstream one. UKIP will get a big vote for the EU elections, but when asked about national elections they loose 15+% points of support all of a sudden.
 
Top Bottom