Margaret Doughty, Atheist Seeking U.S. Citizenship, Told To Join Church Or Be Denied

[Cardinal]

Re: Margaret Doughty, Atheist Seeking U.S. Citizenship, Told To Join Church Or Be Den

Atheists have strong beliefs, founded in faith about religion and divinity, unsupported by strong logic. Thus, a religion without question.

Oy vey. No.

Atheistic. A-theistic. Non-theistic.

That's it. That's all there is to it. There's nothing else.

 

[Oftencold]

Re: Margaret Doughty, Atheist Seeking U.S. Citizenship, Told To Join Church Or Be Den

Well if you're so sure that there's a red ball in my living room then come over and get it for me. But bring some vodka. I just ran out.

I didn't say that there was. I merely assert that you cannot prove that there is not, and if you fervently believe that there is not you are making an assumption, which is a completely normal mode of thought. If you fervently believe that there is no possibility of there being re red ball in your living room in any form, in any frame of reference, then your belief in more religious or superstitious in nature.

By the way, what makes you so sure that there is a living room anyway? Just because you think tht your senses tell you? Your senses tell you that the ground under your feet is solid too, and we believe that is completely fals, that it's almost entirely empty space.

So much of what we think quite reasonable is absurd you know. Even matter and energy as we usually think of them, now appear to be effluvia sideshows of a more fundamental physics that we can scarcely discern. i find that amazing really. As we learn about Dark matter and dark energy, it become clear that our understanding of creation is as though we understood the ocean through observing sea foam on the beach.

And quantum physics? Effect preceding cause, particles that behave differently depending on whether they are observed? Our brains now suspected of employing quantum effect? Geeze! As we learn more, the idea of God becomes less fantastic all the time. Think of those quantum particles reacting to observation. This suggests that some elemental consciousness is a fundamental, not an emergent property of nature.

 

[Oftencold]

Re: Margaret Doughty, Atheist Seeking U.S. Citizenship, Told To Join Church Or Be Den

Without mind altering drugs, no one would read the "what if c-a-t spelled dog" crap of an argument you presented. It'd be ignored. Don't bite the hand that feeds you.

So in your personal "reality" everyone responding to me is stoned? Well, that explains a lot.

 

[Oftencold]

Re: Margaret Doughty, Atheist Seeking U.S. Citizenship, Told To Join Church Or Be Den

Oy vey. No.

Atheistic. A-theistic. Non-theistic.

That's it. That's all there is to it. There's nothing else.

Yes, a non-theistic religion. Not too dissimilar to some forms of tribal Animism, and some aspects of Buddhism. Why are you afraid of the word?

 

[Cardinal]

Re: Margaret Doughty, Atheist Seeking U.S. Citizenship, Told To Join Church Or Be Den

Yes, a non-theistic religion.

Or a left-handed right-handed person.

Or a carnivorous vegetarian.

Or a gaseous solid.

Or a cat that is a chair.

Or a diseased healthy person.

Or a bald person with a full head of hair.

....

 

[Cardinal]

Re: Margaret Doughty, Atheist Seeking U.S. Citizenship, Told To Join Church Or Be Den

I didn't say that there was. I merely assert that you cannot prove that there is not, and if you fervently believe that there is not you are making an assumption, which is a completely normal mode of thought. If you fervently believe that there is no possibility of there being re red ball in your living room in any form, in any frame of reference, then your belief in more religious or superstitious in nature.

By the way, what makes you so sure that there is a living room anyway? Just because you think tht your senses tell you? Your senses tell you that the ground under your feet is solid too, and we believe that is completely fals, that it's almost entirely empty space.

So much of what we think quite reasonable is absurd you know. Even matter and energy as we usually think of them, now appear to be effluvia sideshows of a more fundamental physics that we can scarcely discern. i find that amazing really. As we learn about Dark matter and dark energy, it become clear that our understanding of creation is as though we understood the ocean through observing sea foam on the beach.

And quantum physics? Effect preceding cause, particles that behave differently depending on whether they are observed? Our brains now suspected of employing quantum effect? Geeze! As we learn more, the idea of God becomes less fantastic all the time. Think of those quantum particles reacting to observation. This suggests that some elemental consciousness is a fundamental, not an emergent property of nature.

Then you understand why it is not the onus to prove a negative. If it were, then anybody could make any outrageous claim whatsoever. Such as, oh I don't know, that there's a god.

 

[Oftencold]

Re: Margaret Doughty, Atheist Seeking U.S. Citizenship, Told To Join Church Or Be Den

Or a left-handed right-handed person.

Or a carnivorous vegetarian.

Or a gaseous solid.

Or a cat that is a chair.

Or a diseased healthy person.

Or a bald person with a full head of hair.

....

No. Understanding seem to be evading you.

Were you indifferent to the existence of God, Divinity or spiritual aspects of Reality, you might be said to have no religion. We tend to assume that this is how a bright animal sees the world. They presumably care not a whit for why it exists, if there is a "why," if it is an accident, or was deliberately created.

When you or anyone else asserts a firm opinion about any of these things, you are asserting a religion.

It might be a poorly articulated one, a foolish one, or a logically absurd one, a nameless one, or one that you hold but deny even unto yourself, but a religion it is. You'd have better luck explaining to me how you have no language.

To a truly non-religious person, this conversation would be less interesting that one about the color of my arm pit hair*. As with most religious people though, you feel a need to evangelize. It's okay. I'm religiously tolerant.



*golden, with a lustrous gloss

 

[Oftencold]

Re: Margaret Doughty, Atheist Seeking U.S. Citizenship, Told To Join Church Or Be Den

Then you understand why it is not the onus to prove a negative. If it were, then anybody could make any outrageous claim whatsoever. Such as, oh I don't know, that there's a god.

Correct at last! You don't know! And when you assert that you do, you merely make yourself a priest in yet another religion.

 

[Cardinal]

Re: Margaret Doughty, Atheist Seeking U.S. Citizenship, Told To Join Church Or Be Den

No. Understanding seem to be evading you.

Were you indifferent to the existence of God, Divinity or spiritual aspects of Reality, you might be said to have no religion. We tend to assume that this is how a bright animal sees the world. They presumably care not a whit for why it exists, if there is a "why," if it is an accident, or was deliberately created.

When you or anyone else asserts a firm opinion about any of these things, you are asserting a religion.

It might be a poorly articulated one, a foolish one, or a logically absurd one, a nameless one, or one that you hold but deny even unto yourself, but a religion it is. You'd have better luck explaining to me how you have no language.

To a truly non-religious person, this conversation would be less interesting that one about the color of my arm pit hair*. As with most religious people though, you feel a need to evangelize. It's okay. I'm religiously tolerant.



*golden, with a lustrous gloss

All you've shown is you're working with a different vocabulary. Nothing more. It would help if you used the same dictionary as the rest of us. It would make discussion more efficient.

 

[Cardinal]

Re: Margaret Doughty, Atheist Seeking U.S. Citizenship, Told To Join Church Or Be Den

Correct at last! You don't know! And when you assert that you do, you merely make yourself a priest in yet another religion.

Oy vey (again). It is not the onus to prove a negative. So if you assert that there is a god, it is your burden to prove that he/it/she exists, not for us to prove it doesn't. If science operated on your system, we'd still be communicating by throwing our poo at each other.

 

[Oftencold]

Re: Margaret Doughty, Atheist Seeking U.S. Citizenship, Told To Join Church Or Be Den

All you've shown is you're working with a different vocabulary. Nothing more. It would help if you used the same dictionary as the rest of us. It would make discussion more efficient.

True, advanced literacy and a strong command of English does work against me sometimes. However, the concept is perfectly valid. Religions are belief systems about ultimate reality. Atheism is just another one, based in an immensely egocentric viewpoint. I have encountered references to two that were more egocentric. The first has a large following in Pharonic Egypt in which the king was supposed to be a god. The other was supposedly only held by the Third Roman Emperor.

 

[Oftencold]

Re: Margaret Doughty, Atheist Seeking U.S. Citizenship, Told To Join Church Or Be Den

Oy vey (again). . . . we'd still be communicating by throwing our poo at each other.

This is a political site. What did you think goes on here?!

 

[Cardinal]

Re: Margaret Doughty, Atheist Seeking U.S. Citizenship, Told To Join Church Or Be Den

True, advanced literacy and a strong command of English does work against me sometimes. However, the concept is perfectly valid. Religions are belief systems about ultimate reality. Atheism is just another one, based in an immensely egocentric viewpoint. I have encountered references to two that were more egocentric. The first has a large following in Pharonic Egypt in which the king was supposed to be a god. The other was supposedly only held by the Third Roman Emperor.

If you went with the vocabulary of the rest of the human race then there would be no version that would allow for atheism to be religious. Nothing personal, Oftencold, but I see no reason to abandon a life-attained understanding of the English language for your reinterpretation.

 

[Cardinal]

Re: Margaret Doughty, Atheist Seeking U.S. Citizenship, Told To Join Church Or Be Den

This is a political site. What did you think goes on here?!

How do you think it goes on here? If we were required to prove negatives at every step of the way, I can guarantee you that we wouldn't be anywhere close to internet technology yet.

 

[Oftencold]

Re: Margaret Doughty, Atheist Seeking U.S. Citizenship, Told To Join Church Or Be Den

If you went with the vocabulary of the rest of the human race then there would be no version that would allow for atheism to be religious.. . .

Um, no.

Atheism Is a Religion - Reason.com

David Lose: Has Atheism Become a Religion?

Court rules atheism a religion

Religion Without God by Ronald Dworkin | The New York Review of Books

 

[Cardinal]

Re: Margaret Doughty, Atheist Seeking U.S. Citizenship, Told To Join Church Or Be Den

Um, no.

Atheism Is a Religion - Reason.com

David Lose: Has Atheism Become a Religion?

Court rules atheism a religion

Religion Without God by Ronald Dworkin | The New York Review of Books

All of these are unfounded opinions on what atheism means. The "court rules atheism a religion" has already been covered on DP to show that atheists deserve the same constitutional protection as religious people, but made clear that atheists were not in and of themselves religious.

 

[MoSurveyor]

Re: Margaret Doughty, Atheist Seeking U.S. Citizenship, Told To Join Church Or Be Den

How odd then, that you have no rebuttal.

Carry on.

Rebuttal to what? Bullcrap? The smell alone is enough of a rebuttal. LOL!

I've been through the "atheism is a religion" garbage more than once already. I could use your same twisted definitions to show that the GOP is a religious organization.

AtheistsThe GOP have strong beliefs, check
founded in faith check
about religion and divinity, check
unsupported by strong logic. check
Thus, a religion without question. check

:lol:


Strong beliefs are not exclusive to religions.
Atheism has no foundation of faith. Atheists don't chase orbiting teapots as you seem to assume.
Atheism ignores religion and divinity unless religious people try to shove it in their face.
Atheism is all about logic. It is not logical to blindly accept a God that can't be shown to exist.

Thus, not a religion at all.

 

[DDD]

Re: Margaret Doughty, Atheist Seeking U.S. Citizenship, Told To Join Church Or Be Den

Margaret Doughty, Atheist Seeking U.S. Citizenship, Told To Join Church Or Be Denied

Does anyone need more proof atheists are being persecuted?

Why cannot she do what we have been doing to survive for centuries? Use religion to advance private and political agendas.

Join a church group, pretend you believe in God almighty crap, get the citizenship issue secured, and then of course screw religion. I mean it is not like it is a lifelong binding contract to remain religious to the church now is it?

 

[shrubnose]

Re: Margaret Doughty, Atheist Seeking U.S. Citizenship, Told To Join Church Or Be Den

How do you know that thee is not a red ball in your living room?

Have you looked? Have you looked everywhere? Under the furniture? Inside the furniture?

Is it dark in the room? Ar you blind? Are you color blind?

How big is a red ball? Have you looked to see if there is BB sized red ball? A pollen sized red ball? Without looking, can you be sure that your living room itself is not inside red ball? What if the red ball that your living room might be inside were the exact size and shape and color of the physical universe? do you know what the color and shape of the universe are? What if the ball is alive and moving out of your sight?

And what exactly is a ball? We call that football thing a "ball." And a goofball, which has a far more complex shape.

And what do you mean by "red?" Until quite recently, that would encompass everything from maroon through what we now call yellow-orange, which is why English poetry and pose associate fire with red, why we usually think of it as orange and yellow.

In fact you do not know that there is no red ball in your living room. That is an assumption. Most of our "ideas" are just that; we lie down to sleep in the wholly unprovable assumption that there will be a tomorrow.

This is why agnosticism is not a religion, and Atheism is. Atheism requires absolute faith. The True Atheist must assume the they possess transcendent knowledge.

Anyone who 'assumes anything sets themselves up for a failure.

Think about it.

Never assume.

Study, learn, know.

Then act on the basis of your knowledge.




"Man has created God in his own image: intolerant, sexist, homophobic and violent." ~ Marie

 

[Visbek]

Re: Margaret Doughty, Atheist Seeking U.S. Citizenship, Told To Join Church Or Be Den

Does anyone need more proof atheists are being persecuted?

Yes.

A bureaucrat at Immigration misinterpreted how conscientious objector status works. That's not evidence of broad discrimination.

 

[Visbek]

Re: Margaret Doughty, Atheist Seeking U.S. Citizenship, Told To Join Church Or Be Den

Why cannot she do what we have been doing to survive for centuries? Use religion to advance private and political agendas.

She shouldn't have to. Government bureaucrats aren't supposed to force people to hold (or pretend to hold) religious views.

 

[DDD]

Re: Margaret Doughty, Atheist Seeking U.S. Citizenship, Told To Join Church Or Be Den

She shouldn't have to. Government bureaucrats aren't supposed to force people to hold (or pretend to hold) religious views.

The issue is valid for discussion. But in the meantime she would get her citizenship in more practical means.

 

[ecofarm]

Re: Margaret Doughty, Atheist Seeking U.S. Citizenship, Told To Join Church Or Be Den

I gotta admit, this "atheism is a religion" is the best cage invented by dogma spewers in decades if not centuries. Supposedly full grown adults believe that crap. Amazing. Can't they understand that atheists do not pretend to understand the universe?


"Oh, atheists pretend to understand the universe!"

No, they don't.


(note: I'm using the simpleton definition of atheist, for simplicity's sake)

 

[Gonzo Rodeo]

Re: Margaret Doughty, Atheist Seeking U.S. Citizenship, Told To Join Church Or Be Den

How about the fact that even in Vermont, a liberal state, they removed the philosophical/ethical objection to vaccines (I'm for vaccines, btw.) but kept the religious objection, as if somehow a philosophical/ethical objection is less valid?

Those who can make philosophical and/or ethical objections have the capacity for rational thought. These people need to live.

Therein lies the difference.

 

[Visbek]

Re: Margaret Doughty, Atheist Seeking U.S. Citizenship, Told To Join Church Or Be Den

The issue is valid for discussion. But in the meantime she would get her citizenship in more practical means.

While I try to be practical, I don't think knuckling under is preferable or acceptable.

1) The individual would be gaining citizenship under false pretenses.
2) Taking citizenship trivializes the matter. (It's definitely not a huge issue, but it is an issue.)
3) Things don't get changed unless someone takes a stand.