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Margaret Doughty, Atheist Seeking U.S. Citizenship, Told To Join Church Or Be Denied (1 Viewer)

Re: Margaret Doughty, Atheist Seeking U.S. Citizenship, Told To Join Church Or Be Den

She should become a Muslim. They have no problem lying to infidels.
 
Re: Margaret Doughty, Atheist Seeking U.S. Citizenship, Told To Join Church Or Be Den

Oftencold said:
Yes.


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How about the fact that even in Vermont, a liberal state, they removed the philosophical/ethical objection to vaccines (I'm for vaccines, btw.) but kept the religious objection, as if somehow a philosophical/ethical objection is less valid?
 
Re: Margaret Doughty, Atheist Seeking U.S. Citizenship, Told To Join Church Or Be Den

WCH said:
She should become a Muslim. They have no problem lying to infidels.
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Or immigration should just accept her philosophical/ethical objection.
 
Re: Margaret Doughty, Atheist Seeking U.S. Citizenship, Told To Join Church Or Be Den

afr0byte said:
How about the fact that even in Vermont, a liberal state, they removed the philosophical/ethical objection to vaccines (I'm for vaccines, btw.) but kept the religious objection, as if somehow a philosophical/ethical objection is less valid?
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Well, most people rightly or wrongly would say that philosophical/ethical objection is less valid, or at least is only backed up by fashionable human opinion.

Atheism has the unique problem that as a religion, it lacks any possible divine authority.
 
Re: Margaret Doughty, Atheist Seeking U.S. Citizenship, Told To Join Church Or Be Den

afr0byte said:
Or immigration should just accept her philosophical/ethical objection.
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I'm surprised this current Admin would have a problem with this. Become a Muslim and be looked upon favorably. 8)
 
Re: Margaret Doughty, Atheist Seeking U.S. Citizenship, Told To Join Church Or Be Den

Oftencold said:
Well, most people rightly or wrongly would say that philosophical/ethical objection is less valid, or at least is only backed up by fashionable human opinion.

Atheism has the unique problem that as a religion, it lacks any possible divine authority.
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If it were a religion then it could be used as a religious exemption. Vermont doesn't (nor should anyone) see atheism as a religion. Besides, government shouldn't be in the business of considering a possible god in its rulings.
 
Re: Margaret Doughty, Atheist Seeking U.S. Citizenship, Told To Join Church Or Be Den

WCH said:
I'm surprised this current Admin would have a problem with this. Become a Muslim and be looked upon favorably. 8)
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Why? Obama isn't a Muslim.
 
Re: Margaret Doughty, Atheist Seeking U.S. Citizenship, Told To Join Church Or Be Den

afr0byte said:
If it were a religion then it could be used as a religious exemption. Vermont doesn't (nor should anyone) see atheism as a religion. Besides, government shouldn't be in the business of considering a possible god in its rulings.
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Atheism is indeed a religion, and based wholly in faith. It is the quintessential religion, since it can offer no proof, only supposition, and that based in the idea that were there gods they must perform as the supplicant imagines. Basically, Atheism is a religion wherein man is god. It's cute in a way.
 
Margaret Doughty, Atheist Seeking U.S. Citizenship, Told To Join Church Or Be D

She isn't being denied citizenship because she's an atheist. She wants citizenship in a nation she is not willing to pledge to defend by force of arms. That's why she's being denied citizenship. She can claim conscientious objector status only if she can prove she belongs to a religious organization that is pacifist, because those are the rules.

Spinning a highly exceptional case as proof of persecution is juvenile.
 
Margaret Doughty, Atheist Seeking U.S. Citizenship, Told To Join Church Or Be D

Oftencold said:
Well, most people rightly or wrongly would say that philosophical/ethical objection is less valid, or at least is only backed up by fashionable human opinion.

Atheism has the unique problem that as a religion, it lacks any possible divine authority.
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...and thus can be used in anyway the user sees fit. The woman in the OP may well have a life-long genuine personal opposition to war. Civil servants reviewing citizenship applications should not be tasked as judges, as that could work for or against pet causes at any time. Like it or not they have guidelines to follow, and they can't make everybody feel good.
 
Re: Margaret Doughty, Atheist Seeking U.S. Citizenship, Told To Join Church Or Be D

ChuckBerry said:
She isn't being denied citizenship because she's an atheist. She wants citizenship in a nation she is not willing to pledge to defend by force of arms. That's why she's being denied citizenship. She can claim conscientious objector status only if she can prove she belongs to a religious organization that is pacifist, because those are the rules.

Spinning a highly exceptional case as proof of persecution is juvenile.
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Even if "those are the rules" (Others clearly disagree that those are the rules.), they should be changed. Religion shouldn't be afforded special rights.
 
Re: Margaret Doughty, Atheist Seeking U.S. Citizenship, Told To Join Church Or Be Den

Perhaps she shouldn't have used her "spiritual and religious belief" as a justification to being a conscientious objector and refusing to sign the pledge of allegiance all immigrants are expected to sign? If you stand up and state you are claiming a religious and spiritual exemption then can you be really shocked that they then ask you for proof? Thats kinda like applying for a job using your "masters degree and doctorate in the field" as a qualification on an application and then being pissed that the potential employer says, OK...we are going to need to see your transcripts...
 
Re: Margaret Doughty, Atheist Seeking U.S. Citizenship, Told To Join Church Or Be Den

Oftencold said:
Atheism is indeed a religion, and based wholly in faith. It is the quintessential religion, since it can offer no proof, only supposition, and that based in the idea that were there gods they must perform as the supplicant imagines. Basically, Atheism is a religion wherein man is god. It's cute in a way.
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The lack of a belief in a god doesn't a religion make. I'd bet you don't believe in magical unicorns, yet I don't say you're a member of the Aunicornist religion.
 
Re: Margaret Doughty, Atheist Seeking U.S. Citizenship, Told To Join Church Or Be Den

VanceMack said:
Perhaps she shouldn't have used her "spiritual and religious belief" as a justification to being a conscientious objector and refusing to sign the pledge of allegiance all immigrants are expected to sign? If you stand up and state you are claiming a religious and spiritual exemption then can you be really shocked that they then ask you for proof? Thats kinda like applying for a job using your "masters degree and doctorate in the field" as a qualification on an application and then being pissed that the potential employer says, OK...we are going to need to see your transcripts...
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Well, can one not be spiritual without joining a church?
 
Re: Margaret Doughty, Atheist Seeking U.S. Citizenship, Told To Join Church Or Be Den

afr0byte said:
Well, can one not be spiritual without joining a church?
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She didnt say "spiritual", she said "SPIRITUAL AND RELIGIOUS".
 
Re: Margaret Doughty, Atheist Seeking U.S. Citizenship, Told To Join Church Or Be Den

WCH said:
The DHS doesn't bother monitoring mosques.
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Does it bother monitoring Buddhist temples or Christian churches either?
 
Re: Margaret Doughty, Atheist Seeking U.S. Citizenship, Told To Join Church Or Be Den

VanceMack said:
She didnt say "spiritual", she said "SPIRITUAL AND RELIGIOUS".
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That's just a categorization for a list of exemptions.
 
Re: Margaret Doughty, Atheist Seeking U.S. Citizenship, Told To Join Church Or Be Den

afr0byte said:
The lack of a belief in a god doesn't a religion make. I'd bet you don't believe in magical unicorns, yet I don't say you're a member of the Aunicornist religion.
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A lack of belief is merely agnosticism.

An assertion about the ultimate nature of creation based wholly in a belief is a statement of religion. Even religions tend to have some evidence, even if those are just unreliable records of witness accounts.

A firm belief in the non-existence of God or gods is just that -- a belief. And since it a belief about religious concerns, it is perforce a religious belief.


As for unicorns, I have no opinion, I certainly have no belief in their non-existence. The Universe is vast. Unicorns are not any more unlikely to exist somewhere than peacocks here it seems to me.
 
Re: Margaret Doughty, Atheist Seeking U.S. Citizenship, Told To Join Church Or Be Den

afr0byte said:
That's just a categorization for a list of exemptions.
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And your defense is just a bull**** justification for her lying on her application and then being upset she was asked to offer proof of her lies.
 
Re: Margaret Doughty, Atheist Seeking U.S. Citizenship, Told To Join Church Or Be Den

Oftencold said:
A lack of belief is merely agnosticism.

An assertion about the ultimate nature of creation based wholly in a belief is a statement of religion. Even religions tend to have some evidence, even if those are just unreliable records of witness accounts.

A firm belief in the non-existence of God or gods is just that -- a belief. And since it a belief about religious concerns, it is perforce a religious belief.


As for unicorns, I have no opinion, I certainly have no belief in their non-existence. The Universe is vast. Unicorns are not any more unlikely to exist somewhere than peacocks here it seems to me.
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One can be an agnostic and an atheist (I am one.). I don't know that we can every know if a god exists (agnostic), but I've also seen no evidence for a god so I don't make the leap to believe in one (atheist).
 
Re: Margaret Doughty, Atheist Seeking U.S. Citizenship, Told To Join Church Or Be Den

VanceMack said:
And your defense is just a bull**** justification for her lying on her application and then being upset she was asked to offer proof of her lies.
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Nope. It's not her fault that the category is titled as such.
 
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