Mandating COVID-19 Vaccination

[Gondwanaland]

awww
Did I get under your skin?
Look: you do NOT have the right to infect other people.
if you become a carrier of the virus then you could potentiallydo just that-unless you are removed from society until the pandemic is over

I understand, you're a fascist. We get it. You don't need to keep showing us.

 

[Ginger Ale]

They already send people to houses in some states to check and see if their kids are vaccinated for the regular series of childhood vaccines. Are you saying you'd shot someone who did that at your house?

If they tried to enter my home, most certainly.

Wow, that's a bit of overkill to me.

Well, I hope for innocent government workers and your kid's sakes they don't.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Wow, that's a bit of overkill to me.

Well, I hope for innocent government workers and your kid's sakes they don't.

There's nothing innocent about breaking into someone else's home by force.

 

[Luther]

Yes. That is in fact how it works.

Yes, even TYRANNY works(ROLLING eyes)

 

[Luce]

Yes, even TYRANNY works(ROLLING eyes)

This is silent film-level drama.

 

[jaeger19]

Wrong. A fast-tracked vaccine does not allow for the time to see potential longer term side effects, etc..

Nope. Right. A fast tracked vaccine has the same time frame to see potential longer term side effects the same as a normal scheduled vaccine. A normal scheduled vaccine is not tested for years and years before getting to the market. Long term effects are not known until the vaccine has been out and been taken for some time for a normal scheduled vaccine.

The Fast Track designation largely reduces administration time. Not research requirement for safety. In a normal vaccine or drug development, the company developing the vaccine has to meet with the FDA and show them their preliminary results of testing, their program etc. These meetings generally are on the schedule of the FDA.. and so a company can get caught waiting basically on the FDA meeting.
In Fast Track designated development, the FDA is much more available for these meetings, they meet at the timing of the company.. and not the other way around.
Also in a "normal" drug development.. the company has to compile every part of their approval application and submit it all together for approval. In a fast track program,, the company can do "rolling approval"... where the FDA will look over and approve each section of the application as its done.. rather than wait until everything is compiled and submitted.

Basically the FDA administration process is speeded up. Safety requirements are not relaxed.

 

[jaeger19]

Your problem, like many of the dumbasses out there, is that you do not like being told what to do, even if it is for the greater good. At some point you will just have to swallow the upcoming laws is my guess. Just like you aren't allowed to endanger others by driving drunk, looting, shooting a gun in a residential neighborhood etc etc, laws are made to protect the public against dumbasses who do not know how to behave. SImilarly, you will likely not get to unnecessarily endanger others by choosing not to get vaccinated with a safe and effective vaccine if you deal with the public.

Well first. At least you are admitting that a mandate is in fact.. TELLING PEOPLE WHAT TO DO.. despite you "giving them a choice.
However, your premise is absolutely completely wrong.
I have absolutely NO PROBLEM.. with being told what to do. In fact, not only do I not have a problem with it... I actually PAY people to tell me what to do.
When it comes to my health and medical status.. I pay a medical provider to tell me what do.
When it comes to my automobile and its running, I pay a mechanic to tell me what to do.

What I don;t do.. is pay a mechanic to tell me what to do when it comes to my health. Because golly gee batman.. they don;t have the expertise to help me with medical decisions.
And neither do government officials have that expertise.

Now.. you may be comfortable with Trump telling you what to do when it comes to your medical well being. But I and most of america do not.

 

[Ethel2]

Well first. At least you are admitting that a mandate is in fact.. TELLING PEOPLE WHAT TO DO.. despite you "giving them a choice.
However, your premise is absolutely completely wrong.
I have absolutely NO PROBLEM.. with being told what to do. In fact, not only do I not have a problem with it... I actually PAY people to tell me what to do.
When it comes to my health and medical status.. I pay a medical provider to tell me what do.
When it comes to my automobile and its running, I pay a mechanic to tell me what to do.

What I don;t do.. is pay a mechanic to tell me what to do when it comes to my health. Because golly gee batman.. they don;t have the expertise to help me with medical decisions.
And neither do government officials have that expertise.

Now.. you may be comfortable with Trump telling you what to do when it comes to your medical well being. But I and most of america do not.

Nope. I don't believe a word the jackass says. I also don't want Biden telling me I have to get a vaccine. I want businesses to handle that part. If you work for ANY business that interfaces with the public then you MUST get a vaccine in order to protect the public and staff. Simple.

 

[jaeger19]

Prove it.
You do sound a lot like a six year old child when told he has to take out the trash.....

"I don't want to...I WON'T DO IT....I won't...I won't".
Learn to place nicely with others. You live in a community, not a bubble. Your actions affect others. Deal with that fact.

I actually have proven it. I linked to the swine flu debacle for historical context.

The person that sounds like a six year old here is you. "do it because I say so...". Obviously its NOT about safety... because if it was.. then the people that can;t have the vaccine.. who represent the SAME DANGER.. as someone who who chooses not to have the vaccine.. would have to be quarantined and not be allowed to work, be in public etc.

I am the one playing nicely with others. I recommend that when a vaccine comes out.. everyone go out and discuss it with your doctor and see if its right for you... if there are others that would be better etc.
You on the other hand,, would force people to take a vaccine that might be potentially harmful to them.

 

[Ethel2]

I actually have proven it. I linked to the swine flu debacle for historical context.

The person that sounds like a six year old here is you. "do it because I say so...". Obviously its NOT about safety... because if it was.. then the people that can;t have the vaccine.. who represent the SAME DANGER.. as someone who who chooses not to have the vaccine.. would have to be quarantined and not be allowed to work, be in public etc.

I am the one playing nicely with others. I recommend that when a vaccine comes out.. everyone go out and discuss it with your doctor and see if its right for you... if there are others that would be better etc.
You on the other hand,, would force people to take a vaccine that might be potentially harmful to them.

I am more like a parent in this situation. letting you know what is required of you (assuming getting a vaccine becomes a requirement), since you just want to be able to do whatever you want to do whenever you want to do it. There will be rules you MUST follow sometimes. You may not drive drunk. You will have auto insurance. And if its mandated, you WILL either accept a vaccine if you interface with the public or find a job where you can hide.

 

[jaeger19]

Nope. I don't believe a word the jackass says. I also don't want Biden telling me I have to get a vaccine. I want businesses to handle that part. If you work for ANY business that interfaces with the public then you MUST get a vaccine in order to protect the public and staff. Simple.

Okay.. lets get this straight. You don;t trust Biden or Trump to make your medical decisions... when Biden or Trump actually have experts in the CDC and HHS and other medical personnel giving them medical advice (whether they listen is the question)...
But the President of the US is being advised by actual medical experts as to policy.
And you won;t listen to them..

BUT you will listen to an employer/business... who has NO medical knowledge and doesn;t have access to expert medical advice? THATS who you want making your medical decisions?

PLEASE.. explain your rationale on how a Business is in the best possible position to make your medical decisions.

 

[Ethel2]

Okay.. lets get this straight. You don;t trust Biden or Trump to make your medical decisions... when Biden or Trump actually have experts in the CDC and HHS and other medical personnel giving them medical advice (whether they listen is the question)...
But the President of the US is being advised by actual medical experts as to policy.
And you won;t listen to them..

BUT you will listen to an employer/business... who has NO medical knowledge and doesn;t have access to expert medical advice? THATS who you want making your medical decisions?

PLEASE.. explain your rationale on how a Business is in the best possible position to make your medical decisions.

Sure. I am making the logical assumption that businesses are following guidelines issued by trusted medical advisers. Same as is done at Kaiser where I worked-the ID docs recommended that management mandate flu shots for anyone who works there as a condition of employment. Of course businesses should not be allowed to issue such a mandate until there is good reason to do so. Why would they?

 

[jaeger19]

I am more like a parent in this situation. letting you know what is required of you (assuming getting a vaccine becomes a requirement), since you just want to be able to do whatever you want to do whenever you want to do it. There will be rules you MUST follow sometimes. You may not drive drunk. You will have auto insurance. And if its mandated, you WILL either accept a vaccine if you interface with the public or find a job where you can hide.

Well.. if as a parent.. you are taking me to the mechanic to get medical advice.. then you are committing child abuse.
If you decide to take me to the mayor to get medical advice.. then you are committing child abuse.

And yes.. there are rules that you must follow. At one time.. my wife and I couldn;t get married because of the rules. At one time my wife would have been taken away from me and sent to an internment camp because of the rules.
At one time my wife would not be allowed to have an abortion unless she get permission from a judge because of the rules.
Just because something is a rule... doesn;t make it right and not all rules are just nor have the best interest of society in mind... despite the assurances of teh rule makers that they do.
Certainly the rulemakers that made segregation happen thought "separate but equal".. was the best thing for society.

The question is whether a mandate makes sense... and it does not. The government should not make your medical decisions. That should be between you and your physician.

 

[Ethel2]

Well.. if as a parent.. you are taking me to the mechanic to get medical advice.. then you are committing child abuse.
If you decide to take me to the mayor to get medical advice.. then you are committing child abuse.

And yes.. there are rules that you must follow. At one time.. my wife and I couldn;t get married because of the rules. At one time my wife would have been taken away from me and sent to an internment camp because of the rules.
At one time my wife would not be allowed to have an abortion unless she get permission from a judge because of the rules.
Just because something is a rule... doesn;t make it right and not all rules are just nor have the best interest of society in mind... despite the assurances of teh rule makers that they do.
Certainly the rulemakers that made segregation happen thought "separate but equal".. was the best thing for society.

The question is whether a mandate makes sense... and it does not. The government should not make your medical decisions. That should be between you and your physician.

I am not advocating for government to make such a mandate. I am advocating for businesses to make it as a condition of working at a business that interfaces with the public. Its for the good of society, something conservatives bristle at. Again: for the upteenth time: you do NOT have the right to put innocent people in harms way. If a vaccine is available that is safe and effective then its a tool that can be used to protect the public against a potentially lethal infection. Same as using masks now, before the vaccine is ready. If Biden is elected and a vaccine becomes available you can count on him strongly encouraging businesses to take this tact.

 

[jaeger19]

Sure. I am making the logical assumption that businesses are following guidelines issued by trusted medical advisers.

Why? Why do you make that assumption? Why would you make the assumptions that employers have "trusted medical advisors"? Why?
Why would you assume that employers have hired trusted medical advisors advising them on public health issues and issues pertaining to individual employees health concerns?

Same as is done at Kaiser where I worked-the ID docs recommended that management mandate flu shots for anyone who works there as a condition of employment. Of course businesses should not be allowed to issue such a mandate until there is good reason to do so. Why would they?

Why would they? Because of habit, political pressure, social pressure. AS I have already presented.. there are studies that show that there is little to no statistically significant benefit to mandating flu vaccines to healthcare workers.

The SHEA’s recommendation for making influenza vaccination a condition of employment has no more evidence to support it today than when it was published in 2010, and it should be withdrawn.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6468124/

 

[jaeger19]

I am not advocating for government to make such a mandate. I am advocating for businesses to make it as a condition of working at a business that interfaces with the public. Its for the good of society, something conservatives bristle at. Again: for the upteenth time: you do NOT have the right to put innocent people in harms way. If a vaccine is available that is safe and effective then its a tool that can be used to protect the public against a potentially lethal infection. Same as using masks now, before the vaccine is ready. If Biden is elected and a vaccine becomes available you can count on him strongly encouraging businesses to take this tact.

Right.. so you are advocating business to then make medical decisions for their workers. Business which has absolutely no medical knowledge nor real access to medical knowledge.

Again.. for the umpteenth time.. you have already blown up your argument that someone not getting a vaccine is "having a right to put innocent people in harms way".
IF what you say is true... then people.. who cannot get the vaccine for medical reasons... would have to be quarantined and prevented from going to work forever because a person who cannot get the vaccine poses the same person as the unvaccinated person who chooses not to be vaccinated.

Secondly.. if you are vaccinated.. and the vaccine is effective as you claim.. then who are putting at risk? You keep claiming that not getting the vaccine puts others at risk...
But the only people at risk.. would be those that are not getting vaccinated!!!..

Your argument that "you don;t have the right to put innocent people at harms way"... is mute. Nowhere is anyone asking for such a right.

 

[Ethel2]

Why? Why do you make that assumption? Why would you make the assumptions that employers have "trusted medical advisors"? Why?
Why would you assume that employers have hired trusted medical advisors advising them on public health issues and issues pertaining to individual employees health concerns?

As I said, I am assuming that businesses would not be doing this for the fun of it. They would be following expert guidance from medical people, scientists. For example the ACIP recommends flu vaccines for all healthcare workers (https://health.gov/news-archive/blo...lth-care-workers-a-patient-safety-imperative/). Those are the kind of experts that businesses would rely on to mandate that as a condition of employment a vaccine MUST be accepted by an employee. Remember: its not the business that is making the decision for the employee, its the employee. The employee can always choose to work elsewhere. Decisions have consequences.

Why would they? Because of habit, political pressure, social pressure. AS I have already presented.. there are studies that show that there is little to no statistically significant benefit to mandating flu vaccines to healthcare workers.

" One of the most successful strategies for increasing influenza vaccination of HCWs is mandatory vaccination. In 2011, the Association for Professionals in Infection Control and Epidemiology (APIC) drafted a position paper in which they recommended that facilities employing health care workers require annual influenza immunization as a condition of employment unless there are compelling medical contraindications. "



https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6468124/

 

[Ethel2]

Right.. so you are advocating business to then make medical decisions for their workers. Business which has absolutely no medical knowledge nor real access to medical knowledge.

Again.. for the umpteenth time.. you have already blown up your argument that someone not getting a vaccine is "having a right to put innocent people in harms way".
IF what you say is true... then people.. who cannot get the vaccine for medical reasons... would have to be quarantined and prevented from going to work forever because a person who cannot get the vaccine poses the same person as the unvaccinated person who chooses not to be vaccinated.

Secondly.. if you are vaccinated.. and the vaccine is effective as you claim.. then who are putting at risk? You keep claiming that not getting the vaccine puts others at risk...
But the only people at risk.. would be those that are not getting vaccinated!!!..

Your argument that "you don;t have the right to put innocent people at harms way"... is mute. Nowhere is anyone asking for such a right.

People who cannot get the vaccine for medical reasons would be able to get a waiver. The number of those people are few and far between. The goal is to REDUCE the risk to innocent people. We will never be able to ELIMINATE it. But every measure must be taken to protect those who are at risk.
There are many scenerios where an unprotected person might be in harms way.
1. The vaccine might not have generated an immune response even though the victim has received it-vaccines are not 100% effective
2. A person may not have had a chance yet to receive the vaccine because of distribution problems
3. A person may not be able to get the vaccine for medical reasons
4. etc

If an employee in a business that interfaces with the public does get a vaccine it reduces the risk to these people. You cannot deny that. I am at less risk of getting infected by someone who has received a safe and effective vaccine than I am from a random person who is unvaccinated.

There is really no cogent argument against businesses mandating a Covid vaccine once its available, safe, and effective-other than...."I don't want to", which IMO is BS. We are all members of society here, not just 300M individuals. Each of us has an obligation to protect one another, to respect one another by, for example, wearing a mask in public. Its sad that some here can't see that. Those are the people who are prolonging this for everyone.

 

[SMTA]

Why give people a choice? Since it's in the national interest to have people vaccinated then shouldn't president Biden, being the only person capable of putting an end to this global catastrophe, just mandate vaccinations and enforce the mandate by whatever means necessary? I mean, that's what would be best for America, right?

Get real.
kids have to get vaccinated to attend school.

 

[jaeger19]

People who cannot get the vaccine for medical reasons would be able to get a waiver. .

Which proves that your mandate and punishment is based not on safety but on whether people conform to your ideology.

1. The vaccine might not have generated an immune response even though the victim has received it-vaccines are not 100% effective

Which means that these people are just as dangerous to society as the people that choose not to get a vaccine. Yet you allow them to go to work etc.

2. A person may not have had a chance yet to receive the vaccine because of distribution problems

Which means that these people are just as dangerous to society as the people that choose not to get the vaccine. Yet you allow them to go to work.

If an employee in a business that interfaces with the public does get a vaccine it reduces the risk to these people. You cannot deny that.

Actually I can deny that.. Not statistically. Not when you have all the other people that are not getting the vaccine because of medical reasons.. ineffectiveness of the vaccine and distribution issues etc.
You are making a value judgement that a person who presents the SAME RISK.. as the people who cannot have the vaccine because of medical reasons, ineffectiveness of the vaccine or distribution etc..
You are making the value judgement that though a person who chooses not to get the vaccine... poses the same risk as those other people, that they should be punished for that choice.

Its certainly not due to risk factors... because they pose the same risk to society... its that they don;t conform to your ideology.

 

[jaeger19]

There is really no cogent argument against businesses mandating a Covid vaccine once its available, safe, and effective-other than...."I don't want to", which IMO is BS. We are all members of society here, not just 300M individuals. Each of us has an obligation to protect one another, to respect one another by, for example, wearing a mask in public. Its sad that some here can't see that. Those are the people who are prolonging this for everyone.

Well.. no argument against.... OTHER THAN THE FACT THAT BUSINESS HAS NO UNDERSTANDING OF AN EMPLOYEES MEDICAL ISSUES AND A BUSINESS HAS NO WAY OF EVALUATING WHETHER A VACCINE IS ""SAFE AND EFFECTIVE".

You mean other than the fact that a business has no medical knowledge what so ever..

Yes.. each person has an obligation to protect one another and respect one another. And that includes respecting another's medical choices. You don;t get that. Its sad that you want to have a business.. which has no medical knowledge what so ever.. make medical decisions for its employees.

My employee was not mandated to get the flu vaccine. She chose to get it and ended up in the hospital with a dangerous reaction. There was no way to predict that because she had not had such a reaction before to a vaccine. But it was dangerous for her and almost cost her life.

There may be other employees of mine... who may be just as susceptible to any new Covid 19 vaccine. And you want me.. and employer.. to force my employees to get a medical procedure that may kill them... and why? Because you think that you know better than their medical doctors.

 

[Ethel2]

Well.. no argument against.... OTHER THAN THE FACT THAT BUSINESS HAS NO UNDERSTANDING OF AN EMPLOYEES MEDICAL ISSUES AND A BUSINESS HAS NO WAY OF EVALUATING WHETHER A VACCINE IS ""SAFE AND EFFECTIVE".

You mean other than the fact that a business has no medical knowledge what so ever..

Yes.. each person has an obligation to protect one another and respect one another. And that includes respecting another's medical choices. You don;t get that. Its sad that you want to have a business.. which has no medical knowledge what so ever.. make medical decisions for its employees.

My employee was not mandated to get the flu vaccine. She chose to get it and ended up in the hospital with a dangerous reaction. There was no way to predict that because she had not had such a reaction before to a vaccine. But it was dangerous for her and almost cost her life.

There may be other employees of mine... who may be just as susceptible to any new Covid 19 vaccine. And you want me.. and employer.. to force my employees to get a medical procedure that may kill them... and why? Because you think that you know better than their medical doctors.

We could debate this forever, as I have said before. You are not going to convince me that mandating a safe and effective vaccine for anyone who works with the public is bad idea; I am not going to convince you that it is a good idea. We are now going around in circles; I don't see the point of doing that.
I will leave this discussion with this: either the government or business ARE going to mandate a vaccine, assuming Biden wins (and as of this morning he is up from 9-14 points nationally) for anyone who works with the public in any significant way with medical exceptions (ie a doctor's written excuse). Its a smart public health move.
You are either part of the solution or you are part of the problem. Those dumbasses who think they are free to do whatever they want whenever they want to do it are part of the problem. This economy is NEVER going to thrive until we control the virus. Deal with it.

 

[jaeger19]

We could debate this forever, as I have said before. You are not going to convince me that mandating a safe and effective vaccine for anyone who works with the public is bad idea; I am not going to convince you that it is a good idea.

You could convince me... IF you could offer a logical and factual argument for it. But so far you cannot.
You argue "its for safety"... but point out that you will allow waivers for people that you agree with.. despite the fact that they pose the same risk
You argue that it is already being done... even though I point out and provide links to a study that shows that mandatory vaccination for flu for medical personnel has no statistical evidence supporting its effectiveness.
You argue that "business should mandate it"... when employers have no way of evaluating the effectiveness and safety of a vaccine and certainly don;t have the expertise to make medical decisions for their employees.

You have addressed NONE of these issues.

I will leave this discussion with this: either the government or business ARE going to mandate a vaccine, assuming Biden wins (and as of this morning he is up from 9-14 points nationally) for anyone who works with the public in any significant way with medical exceptions (ie a doctor's written excuse). Its a smart public health move.

Its a terrible public health move. Particularly if it comes from Biden or business. It will end up with fewer people vaccinating.