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Man With Gun Detains Rapist

I suspect if your dream came true, the term mass shootings would be used much more. you'd create civil war.

Yes, your fantasy re-emerges

Apart from the rantings of people like Alex Jones, is there any evidence to believe this would be the case ?
 
Yes, your fantasy re-emerges

Apart from the rantings of people like Alex Jones, is there any evidence to believe this would be the case ?
the 1/6 riots alone proves that. None of those people were facing jail time or had the government breaking down their doors
 
I didn't think so

Mass shootings will continue until there's a gun ban and guns are illegal to own*

*Subject to exemptions previously discussed.
Isn't it true your "exemptions" have been used in mass shootings?

Yes, that's true.

So by what method will your madcap plan end mass shootings?
 
Isn't it true your "exemptions" have been used in mass shootings?

Yes, that's true.

So by what method will your madcap plan end mass shootings?
you can have a good debate listing all his contradictory suggestions on one page. full ban-=full ban with the "chief executive" having sole discretion what not to ban, gun laws won't work without repealing the second amendment, lets push as many gun laws as we can

its hysterical
 
the 1/6 riots alone proves that. None of those people were facing jail time or had the government breaking down their doors

No it doesn't. I'll bet you virtually every J6 rioter deeply regrets his/her actions that day.

Besides, doesn't the pro-gun lobby proudly claim that the J6 rioters carried no guns ?

If a bunch of MAGA cap wearing scum is all we have to fear, then bring it on. One squad of armed, disciplined soldiers would've scattered them.
 
No it doesn't. I'll bet you virtually every J6 rioter deeply regrets his/her actions that day.

Besides, doesn't the pro-gun lobby proudly claim that the J6 rioters carried no guns ?

If a bunch of MAGA cap wearing scum is all we have to fear, then bring it on. One squad of armed, disciplined soldiers would've scattered them.

You really haven't a clue what you are talking about. Many of the most hard core gun owners are military, veterans or cops
 
You really haven't a clue what you are talking about.

Says the guy who has a fantasy of a civil war breaking out if guns are ever banned.


...many of the most hard core gun owners are military, veterans or cops


So what ?

Place them amongst the undisciplined mob like the J6 riot, and they're just another rioter and would scatter just as easy.

It might be your personal fantasy but people aren't willing to die for their guns - not as a rule anyway. And those J6 rioters, never imagined they were going to face arrest and jail. (and some are indeed convinced Trump is going to be re-instated as president and pardon them)
What happened on Sept 18th - not a rioter in sight - they didn't want to mix it with a prepared police force and go to jail.
 
Yes they would, albeit not significantly.
Those few deaths wouldn't be a significant number.

Haven't you taken offense at that concept in the past?
 
what we do know is that schools that have no armed defense are extremely vulnerable to active shooters
Wouldn't an armed defense be the last resort? After all, if the shooter is in the building, that poses the maximal risk to students and teachers. I can think of a number of steps off the top of my head that a K-12 school could take to protect itself that would come first.

1. Secure, bullet proof entrances controlled from the inside, with cameras.
2. A double secure entry vestibule with a metal detector.
3. Hotline to nearby police station.
4. Secure classroom locks.

And so on. The priorities should be preventing an armed assailant from entering the building and then securing classrooms inside the building if an assailant gains entry. If you have to prioritize resources, those listed above I suspect would provide the best bang for the buck (sorry for the pun). Hunker down and wait for the police to arrive.
 
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Wouldn't an armed defense be the last resort? After all, if the shooter is in the building, that poses the maximal risk to students and teachers. I can think of a number of steps off the top of my head that a K-12 school could take to protect itself that would come first.

1. Secure, bullet proof entrances controlled from the inside, with cameras.
2. A double secure entry vestibule with a metal detector.

That's just going to create a queue of targets outside of your hardened area.
3. Hotline to nearby police station.
4. Secure classroom locks.

And so on. The priorities should be preventing an armed assailant from entering the building and then securing classrooms inside the building if an assailant gains entry. If you have to prioritize resources, those listed above I suspect would provide the best bang for the buck (sorry for the pun). Hunker down and wait for the police to arrive.
I wrote this over six years ago:

My suggestion to reduce mass shootings like active shooter and domestic violence looks at three actions: prevention, isolation, intervention.

Prevention is the process to reduce the chance that a shooter will have a firearm in the first place. It's easier for DV than for active shooters, as the Lautenberg Amendment can be used to disarm anyone convicted of domestic violence or with a personal protective order sworn against them preemptively or actively. For Lautenberg to be effective, we need to educate potential victims, their legal support and local law enforcement. Potential active shooters don't have that history and with HIPAA restrictions find it easier to pass background checks. Prevention against rampage shooters is much less effective.

Isolation is the action of keeping a shooter separated from his victims. For DV, removal of the family to a safe house is the primary tool, unless the DV offender commits another crime or is caught violating a PPO before any homicide attempts occur, when he can be arrested. For active shooters, limiting access to schools or other targeted areas via channelized entry, metal detectors and similar passive measures are the first step. Being able to effectively lock down classrooms and other sub-geographies is also necessary.


Sometimes none of these work, or the area under attack isn't conducive to isolation, and that's where intervention is important. The FBI teaches Run, Hide, Fight when thrust into an active shooter situation, and data shows that the best way to fight is with a firearm. The current strategy of limiting ammunition magazine capacity to force reloads where the shooter can be physically restrained is untenable and hasn't been shown to be effective as an active response with a firearm. It suffers from fatal flaws: that the pool of potential victims includes someone that is brave enough to physically attack the shooter, that the brave person isn't among the first shot, that he or she is lucky enough to be in a close enough position during a reload and that he or she is physically capable of restraining a shooter. The biggest flaw, however, is that this tactic requires at least 10 shots to be fired with up to ten dead victims before there is a chance to stop the shooter. We've seen with both the Uber driver and Philly barbershop that CCW holders are not so restrained and can act quickly and effectively enough to stop a shooter with no innocent lives lost.
 
That's just going to create a queue of targets outside of your hardened area.

I wrote this over six years ago:

My suggestion to reduce mass shootings like active shooter and domestic violence looks at three actions: prevention, isolation, intervention. [SNIP]
Everything you wrote makes sense to me. It doesn't sound like we disagree. I was responding to Turtledude's assertion that schools would be, "highly vulnerable" without an on-site armed response. I'm just saying that if you have to prioritize resources, and most schools do, that the armed response would be the last thing to fund. Now, to be sure, the effectiveness of some of the other measures depends on the layout of the building.

I'm not sure what you mean by "outside the hardened area" if the the hardened area is the school itself. A shooter can always pull up in front of the school in the morning or afternoon and start plugging away, but the District can put a police presence there at those regular times if it seems a threat exists.
 
Everything you wrote makes sense to me. It doesn't sound like we disagree. I was responding to Turtledude's assertion that schools would be, "highly vulnerable" without an on-site armed response. I'm just saying that if you have to prioritize resources, and most schools do, that the armed response would be the last thing to fund. Now, to be sure, the effectiveness of some of the other measures depends on the layout of the building.

I'm not sure what you mean by "outside the hardened area" if the the hardened area is the school itself. A shooter can always pull up in front of the school in the morning or afternoon and start plugging away, but the District can put a police presence there at those regular times if it seems a threat exists.

Reduce the threat or fund guarding against it ?

Which option lets gun owners keep their guns ?
Which option do you think gun owners favor ?
 
Reduce the threat or fund guarding against it ?

Which option lets gun owners keep their guns ?
Which option do you think gun owners favor ?
Is that the criteria for which option you find most acceptable?
 
Everything you wrote makes sense to me. It doesn't sound like we disagree.
We seemed to be very much aligned.

I was responding to Turtledude's assertion that schools would be, "highly vulnerable" without an on-site armed response. I'm just saying that if you have to prioritize resources, and most schools do, that the armed response would be the last thing to fund. Now, to be sure, the effectiveness of some of the other measures depends on the layout of the building.
Armed resources can be implemented almost immediately, and with trained volunteer staff wouldn't require much investment. Rebuilding a school will require funds, and like you note, some existing layouts may not work very well.

I'm not sure what you mean by "outside the hardened area" if the the hardened area is the school itself. A shooter can always pull up in front of the school in the morning or afternoon and start plugging away, but the District can put a police presence there at those regular times if it seems a threat exists.
If there is a queue of students trying to get into the building, a metal detector at the entrance will create a chokepoint. That's going to create a densely packed set of targets outside the school where there is no physical protection. Police protection would be necessary, but would also become target number one.

To be frank, we have 130,000 public and private K-12 schools in the US meeting 180 days a year. The actual risk is very low, and in fact, just getting to and from school puts children at more risk.


 
If strict gun control meant less suicides then countries such as Japan and South Korea should be suicide free, they've got among the strictest gun control in the world.

And you don't need the internet, most people know that jumping in front of a train or jumping out a window will kill you, that's what they do when they don't have guns.

There are 193 UN member states. I'll accept your analysis by correlation if you use at least half of them. But cherry picking two is simply woeful analysis. Rejected.

I will not name methods or give an opinion on their effectiveness, beyond the obvious (and relevant) point that guns are very effective.
 
There are 193 UN member states. I'll accept your analysis by correlation if you use at least half of them. But cherry picking two is simply woeful analysis. Rejected.

I will not name methods or give an opinion on their effectiveness, beyond the obvious (and relevant) point that guns are very effective.

Japan and S.Korea work perfectly well. The absence of guns in their societies probably lead to very low numbers of gun shot as a means of suicide.
 
Not for Johnnie Lagendorff, who engaged the Church shooter in Sutherland Springs, Texas.

Engaged, by chasing the shooter in a vehicle. It's still not clear how the shooter died, and thus whether chasing him made any difference.

what we do know is that schools that have no armed defense are extremely vulnerable to active shooters

That so many spree killers expect to die (or kill themselves) means that armed defence only matters in its ability to reduce the numbers murdered.
A solution like high fences and a single secure entrance, with the armed guard there, could be very good because numbers killed (other than the perpetrator) can be zero. Or at least, below the threshold of a mass killing.
A school with several entrances, one or more circuits of corridor, etc, would not be so well served by an armed guard. If the perpetrator was an ex-student and knew the layout well, the armed guard would be Bonus Points for the shooter.
 
Japan and S.Korea work perfectly well. The absence of guns in their societies probably lead to very low numbers of gun shot as a means of suicide.

Japan has a lower rate of suicide than the US, so your agitprop is out of date.

The tradition of suicide in Japan is that it's meant to hurt, and be irreversible even if slow, as the suicidal person is punishing themselves for dishonor. Young people are the main victims, as in the US, and I speculate that their 'dishonor' is not being successful with the opposite sex. We in the West (excl Japan for now) are happily free from parental pressure to produce grand-children, in that we're allowed to go without well into our thirties until the hammer comes down. It's not like that anywhere in Asia. Grandchildren are what you owe your own parents. A brief note on methods.

What we were talking about is whether total successful suicide rates are higher with weak gun control. To be honest, I'm not going to try to prove it; there are too many other factors in the urge to suicide. I do think it's clear that "one bad day" suicides would be much higher, this includes dishonor like having just shot up a school, because a gun user would have to make a conscious effort NOT to kill themselves outright.

Hmm, it seems sometimes people aim for the heart but don't know quite where it is. Oops, should have googled that buddy, you're condemned to live. Hehe.
 
If the barrel is the part used to identify whether a bullet was shot from a particular gun, then being able to replace it unregulated sounds like a loophole.
Is a rat tail file or triangle file also a loophole since either can throw ballistics way out into left field. Also touch up a firing pin, feed ramp, extractor. But only if one needed to.

 
If the barrel is the part used to identify whether a bullet was shot from a particular gun, then being able to replace it unregulated sounds like a loophole.
It's the way guns are made.

TV and movies make way too much of using a bullet/gun match to trace a gun to a murder. There are much more modern techniques to link shooter, gun, bullet and victim together.

 
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