Man sentenced to additional prison time in second incest case

[Lovebug]

Incest has always been taboo as it invites genetic problems like cleft palate, hair lip, hemophilia, etc.

What about brothers or sisters who are both homosexuals? Hubby and I had endless discussions about that one.

 

[OrphanSlug]

Why are you guys splitting hairs over this, in what warped mind can this case be acceptable?

 

[Lursa]

I understand the reasoning, you don't. You're the "nah uh".

You have not managed to adequately articulate the reasoning. Nor even respond directly to my comments.

I call BS on your blanket claim.

If a woman lies to a man to sleep with him...did she rape him?

 

[Lursa]

Why are you guys splitting hairs over this, in what warped mind can this case be acceptable?

I'm not saying it is, I'm asking why it's a criminal act if it's 2 consenting adults?

 

[Unbeknownst]

Now, I don't agree with @ecofarm entirely, I don't believe all incest is rape. Distant cousins of a similar age who didn't even know they were related can have perfectly consensual relations.

That being said, let's not play dumb here. Most incest isn't so perfect.

• There are power imbalances (similar to a boss and employee, a father has power over his daughter because he is in a position of familial authority),
• There are closely related people having babies with all sorts of issues,
• There is tons of grooming (I mean, come ON. That dad was definitely grooming his daughter)
• There are unhealthy, abusive relationships
• There is coercion and dubious consent

I don't think there's anything inherently immoral about two people who are related doing the deed, and incest can, theoretically, lead to a consensual, happy relationship. But in general, incest isn't like this, it causes problems, and it's not conductive to a harmonious society.

If tomorrow incest was legalized, you'd see a lot less "happy distant cousins" and a lot more "50yo man grooms his 18yo daughter and exploits her familial love for him, they have a baby who is dying from genetic disorders" and that's not the sort of thing we want.

 

[maquiscat]

How immoral of a country have we become when we can't even agree that incest is a bad thing?

Do you believe that Adam and Eve were factual and real? What about Noah and the Ark? Yes, I am going somewhere with this.

 

[The Baron]

Do you believe that Adam and Eve were factual and real? What about Noah and the Ark? Yes, I am going somewhere with this.

And I know where you're going with this and you're right.

But the rules changed. Incest is a disgusting practice. I have no idea how one family member can look at another family member and be attracted to that.

 

[maquiscat]

Statutory rape is rape. Don't demean it.

Why do workplace harassment charges exist? Power dynamics.

Rape is determined by power dynamics, not age, and incest is always rape.

Always? No exceptions, under any circumstances?

 

[maquiscat]

Consent is not possible within an insulated family power dynamic. All incest is rape.

Power dynamics are not about lies. They're about power.

This wasn't an insulated family power dynamic. You failed to read the article, it seems. The woman never knew her father prior to age 17, and at that we don't know how close or far she was from 18, i.e. legal adulthood. Neither of them developed the Westermarck Effect to the other. No power dynamic existed to exploit. There is not an automatic power dynamic just because two adults meet who happen to be genetically related.

 

[maquiscat]

Now, I don't agree with @ecofarm entirely, I don't believe all incest is rape. Distant cousins of a similar age who didn't even know they were related can have perfectly consensual relations.

Let's start with distant cousins are typically considered incest. 1st cousins is the closest it gets. That said, the bold is key. There are siblings who go so far as to be married and have kids before ever finding out they were related. I have even seen a story for a father/daughter one, where he hadn't even been told by the mother she was pregnant.

That being said, let's not play dumb here. Most incest isn't so perfect.

• There are power imbalances (similar to a boss and employee, a father has power over his daughter because he is in a position of familial authority),

Except in this case the man was not in a position of familial authority. He wasn't even in the picture until sometime within her 17th year of age. Given that there is no more power imbalance between them than with another couple exactly the same except for genetic relationship.

• There are closely related people having babies with all sorts of issues,

Actually, single generation inbreeding isn't all that dangerous. If fact, it is used by animal breeders to reenforce traits. But it can't be done repeatedly on the same line within 5 generation. After that it's relatively safe again. It is repeated multi-generational inbreeding that results in the birth defects were are often scared with. Also, that is irrelative to the general issue of incest, especially where same sex couplings occur.

• There is tons of grooming (I mean, come ON. That dad was definitely grooming his daughter)

None in this case, at least. The two didn't meet until she was on the edge of legal adulthood. He didn't have time for grooming. That is not a claim that grooming doesn't happen. Just that it is not an automatic part of incest.

• There are unhealthy, abusive relationships

Irrelevant. There are unhealthy, abusive relationships that are not incest.

• There is coercion and dubious consent

If we were talking about a situation where the parent and child were together while she was growing up, I'd agree that was a possibility. But that's not the case. And even so, we have a judicial system where you have to prove wrong doing, not assume it.

If tomorrow incest was legalized, you'd see a lot less "happy distant cousins" and a lot more "50yo man grooms his 18yo daughter and exploits her familial love for him, they have a baby who is dying from genetic disorders" and that's not the sort of thing we want.

We already have the laws against most of not all of the concerns about grooming and coercion. So it's not like we need to have incest laws added to that.

 

[maquiscat]

And I know where you're going with this and you're right.

But the rules changed. Incest is a disgusting practice. I have no idea how one family member can look at another family member and be attracted to that.

Because the repulsion is based on something known as the Westermarck Effect. It occurs regardless of genetic relationships, being developed by growing up close to someone. It's why even adopted family has the repulsion towards each other. It's why siblings who never even knew the other existed, yet alone met growing up, can met as adults and be attracted to one another, marry, and even have kids with no birth defects.

 

[The Baron]

Because the repulsion is based on something known as the Westermarck Effect. It occurs regardless of genetic relationships, being developed by growing up close to someone. It's why even adopted family has the repulsion towards each other. It's why siblings who never even knew the other existed, yet alone met growing up, can met as adults and be attracted to one another, marry, and even have kids with no birth defects.

And we're not talking about any of those things...but it's kinda impressive you know all that which--simply begs the question--"why do you know all that?" but I don't want to get into it.

We are talking about a man who has been having sex with his adult daughter. I am appalled that this is even a debatable topic and yet there are those here who are defending this behavior.

At what point do those who would defend such behavior draw the line (a rhetorical question. I don't expect you to answer it)? When is "too far" too far?

 

[maquiscat]

Man sentenced to additional prison time in second incest case

A man accused of having a sexual relationship with his adult daughter will serve more time behind bars. Adams County District Court records show Travis Fieldgrove 39, of St. Paul, was sentenced to two years in prison after he pleaded no contest to attempted incest, a Class IV felony. That was...

nebraska.tv

HASTINGS, Neb. — A man accused of having a sexual relationship with his adult daughter will serve more time behind bars.

Adams County District Court records show Travis Fieldgrove 39, of St. Paul, was sentenced to two years in prison after he pleaded no contest to attempted incest, a Class IV felony. That was reduced from felony incest, which is a Class III felony.

Fieldgrove was sentenced in May in an identical Hall County case to two years in prison, plus he will be supervised for one year after his release, and the judge ordered him to not have any contact with his victim. He pleaded no contest to criminal attempted incest, reduced from felony incest.
=======================================================
I hope he enjoyed himself. Fond memories to take with him into prison.

It may be hard to find women in a state like Nebraska. But if there is one at your dinner table...

So having answered other posts, what I want to know is why isn't she behind bars also. She willingly engaged in this relationship with him, given that there is no evidence of coercion on his part? If we are going to have these laws, then when there is no force or coercion present, both parties have to be held responsible. I hold this to be true even in the case of two underage teens having sex together (assuming no Romeo and Juliet laws). Both are guilty of statutory rape, unless it can be shown one forced or coerced the other.

 

[maquiscat]

And we're not talking about any of those things...but it's kinda impressive you know all that which--simply begs the question--"why do you know all that?" but I don't want to get into it.

This isn't exactly the first time incest issues have come up, especially in the context of marriage. When you do research on one aspect, others will pop up. There are a lot of myths surrounding incest because of the emotional repulsion caused by the Westermarck Effect, not to mention laws that label certain relationships incest, even if there is no genetic relationship.

We are talking about a man who has been having sex with his adult daughter. I am appalled that this is even a debatable topic and yet there are those here who are defending this behavior.

At what point do those who would defend such behavior draw the line (a rhetorical question. I don't expect you to answer it)? When is "too far" too far?

At the point of force or coercion. And that point is the same whether the situation is incest or not. And for the record, what is most likely to happen is not a relative point for whether something, in and of itself, should be legal or illegal. More women are likely to not have an abortion than are, but that's not an argument to make abortion illegal. Should a given case of incest be looked at to ensure no force or coercion took place? Sure, I'm down for that. Kids naturally get bruises all the time, and if they get an unusual amount, we check to see if there is a problem or not. And a lot of times there is not. My husband was like that one year and was Navy certified to be a klutz, and not abused.

 

[The Baron]

This isn't exactly the first time incest issues have come up, especially in the context of marriage. When you do research on one aspect, others will pop up. There are a lot of myths surrounding incest because of the emotional repulsion caused by the Westermarck Effect, not to mention laws that label certain relationships incest, even if there is no genetic relationship.



At the point of force or coercion. And that point is the same whether the situation is incest or not. And for the record, what is most likely to happen is not a relative point for whether something, in and of itself, should be legal or illegal. More women are likely to not have an abortion than are, but that's not an argument to make abortion illegal. Should a given case of incest be looked at to ensure no force or coercion took place? Sure, I'm down for that. Kids naturally get bruises all the time, and if they get an unusual amount, we check to see if there is a problem or not. And a lot of times there is not. My husband was like that one year and was Navy certified to be a klutz, and not abused.

The kind of incest we're talking about here (father and daughter) should absolutely be prosecuted.

But I didn't read anything about the daughter being prosecuted (unless I've missed something)?

Wonder why?

 

[maquiscat]

The kind of incest we're talking about here (father and daughter) should absolutely be prosecuted.

Why? If there was no force or coercion, what is the issue? Would you hold the same for mother/daughter in the same situation? Father/son (assume both bisexual for the sake of argument)? Other than your sensibilities, what harm is occuring if no force or coercion is present?

But I didn't read anything about the daughter being prosecuted (unless I've missed something)?

Wonder why?

A question I raised myself a few post back. Since there is no force or coercion in evidence AND the sexual relationship didn't occur until she was a legal adult (and 1 year is not sufficient for grooming), she is every bit as guilty for incest as he is.

 

[The Baron]

Why? If there was no force or coercion, what is the issue?

It's wrong.

Would you hold the same for mother/daughter in the same situation?

Oh, hell yes!

Father/son (assume both bisexual for the sake of argument)? Other than your sensibilities, what harm is occuring if no force or coercion is present?

It's wrong!

Why is this a problem for you.

Society has to have standards.

A question I raised myself a few post back. Since there is no force or coercion in evidence AND the sexual relationship didn't occur until she was a legal adult (and 1 year is not sufficient for grooming), she is every bit as guilty for incest as he is.

And she should be prosecuted because incest is wrong.

Just damn!

 

[maquiscat]

It's wrong.

Oh, hell yes!

It's wrong!

Why is this a problem for you.

Society has to have standards.

And she should be prosecuted because incest is wrong.

Just damn!

You have already been shown that right/wrong doesn't automatically equate to legal/illegal, especially where religious or emotional issue are concerned. Personally freedom standards trump squik factor standards every time. If both parties are consenting then freedom for them trumps any wrongness you or I feel. It harms no one else. Please show otherwise, where such things don't also exist for other groups.

 

[The Baron]

You have already been shown that right/wrong doesn't automatically equate to legal/illegal, especially where religious or emotional issue are concerned. Personally freedom standards trump squik factor standards every time. If both parties are consenting then freedom for them trumps any wrongness you or I feel. It harms no one else. Please show otherwise, where such things don't also exist for other groups.

I'm speechless.

Once again, how immoral of a country have we become when we can't even agree that incest is a bad thing?

Honestly, I have no intention of debating the "rightness" of incest.

Just damn.

 

[maquiscat]

I'm speechless.

Once again, how immoral of a country have we become when we can't even agree that incest is a bad thing?

Honestly, I have no intention of debating the "rightness" of incest.

Just damn.

How immoral were we when we treated women as chattel? Or kept people as slaves? Or prevented interracial marriages? In the end, you are trying to apply your set of morals to others. But that is still not the issue. Simply being immoral is not an issue. Freedom requires that we allow people to act immorally as long as it does not violate others' freedoms. There is nothing in consensual incest that violates anyone else's freedoms or rights. What violations that can occur within incest, can also occur outside of incest. Thus you address the violations themselves, not whether or not they occurred during an "immoral" act.

 

[Unbeknownst]

until she was on the edge of legal adulthood

Weird way to say underage.

There are unhealthy, abusive relationships that are not incest.

Yes, but the power imbalances that come with incest exacerbate the problems in incest specifically.

 

[Unbeknownst]

Since there is no force or coercion in evidence AND the sexual relationship didn't occur until she was a legal adult (and 1 year is not sufficient for grooming), she is every bit as guilty for incest as he is.

From the article:

"Samantha Kershner, 21, in the beginning 2018, and even got married in Adams County.

Adams County District court records say Kershner pleaded no contest to misdemeanor making false statements, and had a felony incest charge dropped.

Kershner was sentenced to 22 days in jail, with credit for all 22 days already served.

The plea deal is identical to the one she took for the same crime in Hall County.

In that case, Judge Arthur Wetzel sentenced Kershner to nine months of probation."

 

[Lursa]

And we're not talking about any of those things...but it's kinda impressive you know all that which--simply begs the question--"why do you know all that?" but I don't want to get into it.

We are talking about a man who has been having sex with his adult daughter. I am appalled that this is even a debatable topic and yet there are those here who are defending this behavior.

At what point do those who would defend such behavior draw the line (a rhetorical question. I don't expect you to answer it)? When is "too far" too far?

It's not about right and wrong...you are just judging them. They are consenting adults harming no one. Our 'feelings' about their behavior dont matter.

You want them punished...you want their actions criminalized, correct? If so...based on what? Why?

 

[Lursa]

The kind of incest we're talking about here (father and daughter) should absolutely be prosecuted.

But I didn't read anything about the daughter being prosecuted (unless I've missed something)?

Wonder why?

Exactly. Why not "her" if it's 'wrong?'

So please explain why "he" and/or "she" should be prosecuted?

 

[Lursa]

I'm speechless.

Once again, how immoral of a country have we become when we can't even agree that incest is a bad thing?

Honestly, I have no intention of debating the "rightness" of incest.

Just damn.

Nobody says it's good. I already posted that we dont outlaw lots of 'bad' things, like adultery, cheating, lying**, etc.

Why do 'your feelings' on right or wrong matter here? Do you think that there will be 'less' incest if adults are arrested? Of course not...this is one of the most strongly held taboos in our society. If adult relative STILL choose an intimate relationship...laws wont stop them. Obviously, hence the OP.

And no one goes around publicizing their incestuous relationship. This behavior is uncommon, clandestine, and no laws ever have or will affect it. But as a matter of legislation and people's rights...what justification would the govt have to interfere between 2 consenting adults here?


(**There are some illegal cases for those things but in day to day life, no).