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Man Convicted for Tricking Girlfriend to Take Abortion Pills[W:393,1077]

Sherman123

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I rarely post in this forum but this is the kind of thing that makes me deeply uncomfortable. I support the status quo on abortion and oppose efforts to restrict access to the procedures. However I think consistency is incredibly important. Life is life... or it isn't. I could see a justification for an assault charge but I'm completely opposed to the notion that a man should go to prison for 13 years for something if done voluntarily wouldn't have been a crime at all. Thoughts?

Man tricks pregnant girlfriend into taking abortion pill - CNN.com
 
Re: Man Convicted for Tricking Girlfriend to Take Abortion Pills

I rarely post in this forum but this is the kind of thing that makes me deeply uncomfortable. I support the status quo on abortion and oppose efforts to restrict access to the procedures. However I think consistency is incredibly important. Life is life... or it isn't. I could see a justification for an assault charge but I'm completely opposed to the notion that a man should go to prison for 13 years for something if done voluntarily wouldn't have been a crime at all. Thoughts?

Man tricks pregnant girlfriend into taking abortion pill - CNN.com

But that's the thing Sherman. This guy went to prison because it was trickery, because it wasn't voluntary, because the woman did not give her consent to do this. There is a massive difference between doing something and knowing the consequences and doing it voluntarily and being tricked into something.
 
Re: Man Convicted for Tricking Girlfriend to Take Abortion Pills

I rarely post in this forum but this is the kind of thing that makes me deeply uncomfortable. I support the status quo on abortion and oppose efforts to restrict access to the procedures. However I think consistency is incredibly important. Life is life... or it isn't. I could see a justification for an assault charge but I'm completely opposed to the notion that a man should go to prison for 13 years for something if done voluntarily wouldn't have been a crime at all. Thoughts?

Man tricks pregnant girlfriend into taking abortion pill - CNN.com

It bothers me as well. Though I can't quite articulate why.
 
Re: Man Convicted for Tricking Girlfriend to Take Abortion Pills

But that's the thing Sherman. This guy went to prison because it was trickery, because it wasn't voluntary, because the woman did not give her consent to do this. There is a massive difference between doing something and knowing the consequences and doing it voluntarily and being tricked into something.

Obviously that is true, but for me the central issue is that it cannot be a surgical operation when its voluntary and murder when it's involuntary. Has some offense occurred? Sure. Is it what this man was charged with? I don't think so and it seems deeply wrong (the implication seems extraordinary) to level murder or manslaughter charges against him in any way, shape, or form.
 
Re: Man Convicted for Tricking Girlfriend to Take Abortion Pills

IMO he belongs in prison. In defense of abortion, people have said to me that killing a zef is just like killing cancer cells, or cutting of an infected limb. People have also compared the zef to a parasite sucking the life out it's host. With thinking like that you could almost say this guy did his girlfriend a favor. I get that he took her choice away. I'm just making the point if you view a zef as having little to no value then how can you justify throwing this guy in prison?
 
Re: Man Convicted for Tricking Girlfriend to Take Abortion Pills

IMO he belongs in prison. In defense of abortion, people have said to me that killing a zef is just like killing cancer cells, or cutting of an infected limb. People have also compared the zef to a parasite sucking the life out it's host. With thinking like that you could almost say this guy did his girlfriend a favor. I get that he took her choice away. I'm just making the point if you view a zef as having little to no value then how can you justify throwing this guy in prison?

Just so you are aware, many prochoice people would never consider an abortion for themselves.
 
Re: Man Convicted for Tricking Girlfriend to Take Abortion Pills

IMO he belongs in prison. In defense of abortion, people have said to me that killing a zef is just like killing cancer cells, or cutting of an infected limb. People have also compared the zef to a parasite sucking the life out it's host. With thinking like that you could almost say this guy did his girlfriend a favor. I get that he took her choice away. I'm just making the point if you view a zef as having little to no value then how can you justify throwing this guy in prison?

Excellent counterpoint. My views on abortion are conflicted so I like to walk the middle ground, but this is clearly hypocrisy.
 
Re: Man Convicted for Tricking Girlfriend to Take Abortion Pills

I rarely post in this forum but this is the kind of thing that makes me deeply uncomfortable. I support the status quo on abortion and oppose efforts to restrict access to the procedures. However I think consistency is incredibly important. Life is life... or it isn't. I could see a justification for an assault charge but I'm completely opposed to the notion that a man should go to prison for 13 years for something if done voluntarily wouldn't have been a crime at all. Thoughts?

Man tricks pregnant girlfriend into taking abortion pill - CNN.com



Florida again...hmmm.. Well, doesn't the father have any rights? He would be financially responsible for this child for many, many years...and how much love did she have for this guy if she can send him off to prison for 13 years? It's a shame as his life is ruined forever now.. But he did make the choice....
 
Re: Man Convicted for Tricking Girlfriend to Take Abortion Pills

My thoughts are drugging somebody without their knowledge should always be a crime. Groundbreaking, I know.
 
Re: Man Convicted for Tricking Girlfriend to Take Abortion Pills

Florida again...hmmm.. Well, doesn't the father have any rights? He would be financially responsible for this child for many, many years...and how much love did she have for this guy if she can send him off to prison for 13 years? It's a shame as his life is ruined forever now.. But he did make the choice....

Are you saying he should walk?
 
Re: Man Convicted for Tricking Girlfriend to Take Abortion Pills

This was a premeditated murder. Thirteen years is not an adequate sentence.
 
Re: Man Convicted for Tricking Girlfriend to Take Abortion Pills

I rarely post in this forum but this is the kind of thing that makes me deeply uncomfortable. I support the status quo on abortion and oppose efforts to restrict access to the procedures. However I think consistency is incredibly important. Life is life... or it isn't. I could see a justification for an assault charge but I'm completely opposed to the notion that a man should go to prison for 13 years for something if done voluntarily wouldn't have been a crime at all. Thoughts?

Man tricks pregnant girlfriend into taking abortion pill - CNN.com

Actually he did not use the very same drugs a doctor would use.

Usually an antibiotic and two chemical abortion type drugs are used. The first stops the progesterone production. Progesterone is needed to continue a pregnancy.
By stopping the progesterone ( in lay mans terms ) the placenta starts to pull away from the wall. The second drug ...
The one the boyfriend gave her is taken a day later and it causes the cramping and with the loosened placenta the abortion is more like a heavy period with mild cramping.

Without the first medication the woman went into full premature labor which is not only very painful but since she was not given antibiotics it could have caused a life threatening infection.
 
Re: Man Convicted for Tricking Girlfriend to Take Abortion Pills

Actually he did not use the very same drugs a doctor would use.

Usually an antibiotic and two chemical abortion type drugs are used. The first stops the progesterone production. Progesterone is needed to continue a pregnancy.
By stopping the progesterone ( in lay mans terms ) the placenta starts to pull away from the wall. The second drug ...
The one the boyfriend gave her is taken a day later and it causes the cramping and with the loosened placenta the abortion is more like a heavy period with mild cramping.

Without the first medication the woman went into full premature labor which is not only very painful but since she was not given antibiotics it could have caused a life threatening infection.

I'll take your word for it as this isn't an area I'm remotely familiar with. However in my opinion this still evades the central ethical point. He was convicted and given a lengthy prison sentence on the basis that he had killed someone, a murder charge that carried a life sentence to be precise. To equate what he did to murder is unconscionable to me. As I said before I support access to abortion and oppose efforts to roll back the status quo. However we need to be consistent in how we define life and demarcate the realm of punishment.

Charge him with assault, charge him with reckless endangerment, or whatever else may be applicable. But murder? I can't see how that is justifiable. It cannot be a surgical procedure when voluntary and murder when involuntary in my book.
 
Re: Man Convicted for Tricking Girlfriend to Take Abortion Pills

I'll take your word for it as this isn't an area I'm remotely familiar with. However in my opinion this still evades the central ethical point. He was convicted and given a lengthy prison sentence on the basis that he had killed someone, a murder charge that carried a life sentence to be precise. To equate what he did to murder is unconscionable to me. As I said before I support access to abortion and oppose efforts to roll back the status quo. However we need to be consistent in how we define life and demarcate the realm of punishment.

Charge him with assault, charge him with reckless endangerment, or whatever else may be applicable. But murder? I can't see how that is justifiable. It cannot be a surgical procedure when voluntary and murder when involuntary in my book.

I highly doubt the murder charge would have held if the case had gone to trial but he pleaded guilty to avoid a trial.
 
Re: Man Convicted for Tricking Girlfriend to Take Abortion Pills

IMO he belongs in prison. In defense of abortion, people have said to me that killing a zef is just like killing cancer cells, or cutting of an infected limb. People have also compared the zef to a parasite sucking the life out it's host. With thinking like that you could almost say this guy did his girlfriend a favor. I get that he took her choice away. I'm just making the point if you view a zef as having little to no value then how can you justify throwing this guy in prison?

You already said it

Pro choicers may want to see him go to jail because he took away the decision for the women to decide rather or not to carry the human full term or not.
 
Re: Man Convicted for Tricking Girlfriend to Take Abortion Pills

I'll take your word for it as this isn't an area I'm remotely familiar with. However in my opinion this still evades the central ethical point. He was convicted and given a lengthy prison sentence on the basis that he had killed someone, a murder charge that carried a life sentence to be precise. To equate what he did to murder is unconscionable to me. As I said before I support access to abortion and oppose efforts to roll back the status quo. However we need to be consistent in how we define life and demarcate the realm of punishment.

Charge him with assault, charge him with reckless endangerment, or whatever else may be applicable. But murder? I can't see how that is justifiable. It cannot be a surgical procedure when voluntary and murder when involuntary in my book.

What he did does not "equate" to murder, it was literally murder.

His action was an illegal, premeditated, and aggressive homicide explicitly codified in law as murder. He is a murderer; not just a killer, but a murderer.

You are right to point out that it is unfair that for one parent to kill their kid, it is called murder, but for the other, it is permitted.

I do have a remedy that promotes equality, of course.
 
Re: Man Convicted for Tricking Girlfriend to Take Abortion Pills

This was a premeditated murder. Thirteen years is not an adequate sentence.

Killing something with the mentation of a worm does not warrant 13 years in prison and if it truly does then killing a cow or chicken should warrant 20+ years
 
Re: Man Convicted for Tricking Girlfriend to Take Abortion Pills

1. You are right to point out that it is unfair that for one parent to kill their kid, it is called murder, but for the other, it is permitted.

2. I do have a remedy that promotes equality, of course.

1. Yeah it is unusual especially in the USA

2. Oh please share with us your version of what ''equality'' is in your eyes
 
Re: Man Convicted for Tricking Girlfriend to Take Abortion Pills

Charge him with assault, charge him with reckless endangerment, or whatever else may be applicable. But murder? I can't see how that is justifiable. It cannot be a surgical procedure when voluntary and murder when involuntary in my book.

Sherman, I have to agree with the above comments. The only legal instrument to deal with this type case is the Unborn Victims Act, which is exactly what was used to try and convict the guy. But this law is vague and not tested in a lot of cases.

The development stage of the pregnancy just short of 7-week-long pregnancy.

The emotional suffering of the woman is hard to measure. She claimed that the pregnancy for HER was a blessing.

Obviously the guy has violated her rights, but given the length of her pregnancy...there's no way of knowing if she would have naturally carried that embryo to full term as about 25% of pregnancies are terminated by a woman's body.

It was still possible for her body to reject the embryo.

And like yourself...the guy being charged and convicted with a murder is extreme, in my opinion. I disagree with it.

The reason I disagree with is that "IF THE WOMAN BELIEVED she couldn't conceive EVER" (result of medical diagnosis), and HE WAS AWARE OF THAT...then obviously I "might"..just might consider a more serious charge. Nothing of this nature has been disclosed.
 
Re: Man Convicted for Tricking Girlfriend to Take Abortion Pills

I rarely post in this forum but this is the kind of thing that makes me deeply uncomfortable. I support the status quo on abortion and oppose efforts to restrict access to the procedures. However I think consistency is incredibly important. Life is life... or it isn't. I could see a justification for an assault charge but I'm completely opposed to the notion that a man should go to prison for 13 years for something if done voluntarily wouldn't have been a crime at all. Thoughts?

Man tricks pregnant girlfriend into taking abortion pill - CNN.com

I agree with you. But let's look at how minor the charges for what he did to the woman are.

He not only dosed her with a very strong pharmaceutical causing her to lose a wanted pregnancy, but he did so improperly, putting her at high risk of complication. Why is there no grievous bodily harm charge? Simple assault? That's it? Really? The same charge he would have gotten if he'd just threatened to smack her?

And therein lies the thing that is truly twisted about this case.

There is a REASON they pushed for a murder conviction, despite the fact that killing a ZEF oneself carries no charge. It was an attempt to politicize this case, and if he was found guilty, it would cause his conviction to conflict with the current classification of a ZEF as defined by Row, which sets the stage for a court challenge.

Basically, the prosecution was just using this woman as a tool to get some licks in on the abortion debate.

And they cared so little about her that they couldn't even be bothered to attach a serious charge to the harm that he did to her. Just some little nothing-charge that doesn't carry any significant time. Charging him for what he did to her was almost an afterthought. They were too busy thinking about the embryo.

Which means they were pushing for one of two results from this case: creating yet another anti-choice state, or just letting the guy go with nothing more than a slap on the wrist.

That is what is really disturbing about this case.

The entire set-up of the case completely rejects the idea that the woman herself was violated significantly and deserved justice. It places her as nothing but a vehicle for debating the man's will vs. the embryo's right or lack of to occupy a woman's body, and that's all. The set-up of the case showed that the prosecution cared so little for this woman's rights and agency and integrity that they would rather use her as a political tool and risk the guy just getting out scott free, because they cared not even the tiniest bit about getting justice for her.
 
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Re: Man Convicted for Tricking Girlfriend to Take Abortion Pills

I rarely post in this forum but this is the kind of thing that makes me deeply uncomfortable. I support the status quo on abortion and oppose efforts to restrict access to the procedures. However I think consistency is incredibly important. Life is life... or it isn't. I could see a justification for an assault charge but I'm completely opposed to the notion that a man should go to prison for 13 years for something if done voluntarily wouldn't have been a crime at all. Thoughts?

Man tricks pregnant girlfriend into taking abortion pill - CNN.com

Yes, tragic.

I'll point out that there are a sizable number of substances (how many, I'm not sure exactly) - over the counter medications, non-abortion nature prescription meds, even plant extracts - that will induce labor and/or induce an abortion. I can think of three that I can go to Walmart and buy right now from the pharmacy.

I remember a case about 15 years ago where a boyfriend was slowly poisoning his girlfriend to induce an abortion - and she even caught him on camera pouring something into her drink - but they claimed there 'wasn't enough evidence' (IE: by the time she went to the dr, the liquid was out of her system). He was never tossed in the clink for it.
 
Re: Man Convicted for Tricking Girlfriend to Take Abortion Pills

I agree with you. But let's look at how minor the charges for what he did to the woman are.

He not only dosed her with a very strong pharmaceutical causing her to lose a wanted pregnancy, but he did so improperly, putting her at high risk of complication. Why is there no grievous bodily harm charge? Simple assault? That's it? Really? The same charge he would have gotten if he's threatened to smack her?

And therein lies the thing that is truly twisted about this case.

There is a REASON they pushed for a murder conviction, despite the fact that killing a ZEF oneself carries no charge. It was an attempt to politicize this case, and if he was found guilty, it would cause his conviction to conflict with the current classification of a ZEF as defined by Row, which sets the stage for a court challenge.

Basically, the prosecution was just using this woman as a tool to get some licks in on the abortion debate.

And they cared so little about her that they couldn't even be bothered to attach a serious charge to the harm that he did to her. Just some little nothing-charge that doesn't carry any significant time. Charging him for what he did to her was almost an afterthought. They were too busy thinking about the embryo.

Which means they were pushing for one of two results from this case: creating yet another anti-choice state, or just letting the guy go with nothing more than a slap on the wrist.

That is what is really disturbing about this case.

The entire set-up of the case completely rejects the idea that the woman herself was violated significantly and deserved justice. It places her as nothing but a vehicle for debating the man's will vs. the embryo's right or lack of to occupy a woman's body, and that's all. The set-up of the case showed that the prosecution cared so little for this woman's rights and agency and integrity that they would rather use her as a political tool and risk the guy just getting out scott free, because they cared not even the tiniest bit about getting justice for her.

Good points SAM...

Thanks.
 
Re: Man Convicted for Tricking Girlfriend to Take Abortion Pills

Florida again...hmmm.. Well, doesn't the father have any rights? He would be financially responsible for this child for many, many years...and how much love did she have for this guy if she can send him off to prison for 13 years? It's a shame as his life is ruined forever now.. But he did make the choice....

How can you ask such a question??? He deliberately caused her to miscarry a pregnancy she very much wanted! He most certainly does deserve to go to prison, though I do not agree with it being a charge of murder. He took her choice from her and he had no right to do that.
 
Re: Man Convicted for Tricking Girlfriend to Take Abortion Pills

I'll take your word for it as this isn't an area I'm remotely familiar with. However in my opinion this still evades the central ethical point. He was convicted and given a lengthy prison sentence on the basis that he had killed someone, a murder charge that carried a life sentence to be precise. To equate what he did to murder is unconscionable to me. As I said before I support access to abortion and oppose efforts to roll back the status quo. However we need to be consistent in how we define life and demarcate the realm of punishment.

Charge him with assault, charge him with reckless endangerment, or whatever else may be applicable. But murder? I can't see how that is justifiable. It cannot be a surgical procedure when voluntary and murder when involuntary in my book.

The bolded section is just not true. He was not charged with murder. He was charged with violating UVVA
 
Re: Man Convicted for Tricking Girlfriend to Take Abortion Pills

The bolded section is just not true. He was not charged with murder. He was charged with violating UVVA

I'll plead unfamiliarity with the legislation in question but in several articles I read the charges are quoted as such "Welden was indicted under the rarely used federal Unborn Victims of Violence Act, a murder charge that carries a life sentence." It seems to be viewed as a murder charge, or if not explicitly something extremely proximate to one. Certainly with a similar penalty.
 
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