Man Convicted for Tricking Girlfriend to Take Abortion Pills[W:393,1077]

[davidtaylorjr]

Re: Man Convicted for Tricking Girlfriend to Take Abortion Pills

I rarely post in this forum but this is the kind of thing that makes me deeply uncomfortable. I support the status quo on abortion and oppose efforts to restrict access to the procedures. However I think consistency is incredibly important. Life is life... or it isn't. I could see a justification for an assault charge but I'm completely opposed to the notion that a man should go to prison for 13 years for something if done voluntarily wouldn't have been a crime at all. Thoughts?

Man tricks pregnant girlfriend into taking abortion pill - CNN.com

So apparently the unborn ARE people with rights. What a double standard from Pro-Choice crowds.

 

[SmokeAndMirrors]

Re: Man Convicted for Tricking Girlfriend to Take Abortion Pills

I don't get it.

If a woman doesn't want a child and the man does, she can get an abortion and it is legal and people will praise her "right to choose"

But if a man doesn't want a child and the woman does, he is basically ****ed and if he makes any attempt to prevent the pregnancy from going to term...he's a murderer.

I apologize that biology isn't fair, but that doesn't change the fact.

I support "paper abortions" all day long, but no, men don't get to assault women in order to avoid having a child.

 

[GEIxBattleRifle]

Re: Man Convicted for Tricking Girlfriend to Take Abortion Pills

Valuing an animals life over a human's? Smh. How can we have a rational debate with skewed priorities like that?

We still can have a ''rational'' debate since debates don't depend on someone's ''values'' and or ''priorities.''

 

[GEIxBattleRifle]

Re: Man Convicted for Tricking Girlfriend to Take Abortion Pills

So apparently the unborn ARE people with rights. What a double standard from Pro-Choice crowds.

Pro choices don't think the unborn are people at all so I don't know what you're going with this

 

[Ben K.]

Man Convicted for Tricking Girlfriend to Take Abortion Pills

No, they settled. There's a difference. And he didn't get the sentencing that winning would have entailed, either.

I am not saying it's sad that she viewed it as a baby. I am saying it's sad that whoever came up with these charges doesn't believe the violation to the woman deserves any punishment. The only thing that matters is the embryo, and she's irrelevant.

That's what is sad.

You can't divorce these two things when you're talking about an embryo. One is inside the other.

And the entire basis of the murder charge is nothing but throwing a Row challenge into the wind.

They settled for a sentence that will probably be longer than that of winning on the damages caused against her person alone. Are we even sure there aren't additional further charges?

You're making a bunch of baseless accusations and judgments against her and/or her legal team.

 

[OscarB63]

Re: Man Convicted for Tricking Girlfriend to Take Abortion Pills

I apologize that biology isn't fair, but that doesn't change the fact.

I support "paper abortions" all day long, but no, men don't get to assault women in order to avoid having a child.

I would be a much stronger supporter of a woman's right to choose, if men were also given a legal right to choose. (ie. if he doesn't want the kid but she does he is granted a legal/paper abortion absolving him from all rights and responsibilities for the child)

 

[SmokeAndMirrors]

Re: Man Convicted for Tricking Girlfriend to Take Abortion Pills

They settled for a sentence that will probably be longer than that of winning on the damages caused against her person alone. Are we even sure there aren't additional further charges?

You're making a bunch of baseless accusations and judgments against her and/or her legal team.

Not if he had been charged for such appropriately.

It simply is what it is. There is no real charge for what he did for her. This set of charges makes a plain statement, intended or not, that abuse of women is irrelevant to the prosecution.

 

[SmokeAndMirrors]

Re: Man Convicted for Tricking Girlfriend to Take Abortion Pills

I would be a much stronger supporter of a woman's right to choose, if men were also given a legal right to choose. (ie. if he doesn't want the kid but she does he is granted a legal/paper abortion absolving him from all rights and responsibilities for the child)

How about fighting both, then? Plenty of women, myself included, already are, or would join you with a very short explanation of why it should exist.

My experience is that most pro-choicers simply haven't had this issue pointed out to them. It usually just takes a conversation, and they go "Oh. I hadn't considered that." They may or may not adopt it to the extent that I do, but almost none of them will try to deny that it's at least an important point, if nothing else.

 

[sangha]

Re: Man Convicted for Tricking Girlfriend to Take Abortion Pills

I would be a much stronger supporter of a woman's right to choose, if men were also given a legal right to choose. (ie. if he doesn't want the kid but she does he is granted a legal/paper abortion absolving him from all rights and responsibilities for the child)

Men have the right to choose.

It is not illegal for a man to have an abortion.

 

[OscarB63]

Re: Man Convicted for Tricking Girlfriend to Take Abortion Pills

13 years in a minimum security prison vs 18 years as a wage slave to a child he did not want....I'd say he got off 5 years early.

 

[OscarB63]

Re: Man Convicted for Tricking Girlfriend to Take Abortion Pills

Men have the right to choose.

It is not illegal for a man to have an abortion.

touche` ... I'd like to point out that it is not illegal for a gay person to marry someone of the opposite gender while we're at it

 

[AGENT J]

Re: Man Convicted for Tricking Girlfriend to Take Abortion Pills

actually seems pretty simple to me

he took away here choice and put two lives in danger, two lives that were not a risk to his life

then he plead GUILTY to this

simple open and shut case and there's zero hypocrisy and there no double standard based on facts and reality, its comical to even think there is
abortion is about TWO lives the woman and the ZEF, neither of which are this guy, common sense and pretty basic

 

[OscarB63]

Re: Man Convicted for Tricking Girlfriend to Take Abortion Pills

actually seems pretty simple to me

he took away here choice and put two lives in danger, two lives that were not a risk to his life

then he plead GUILTY to this

simple open and shut case and there's zero hypocrisy and there no double standard based on facts and reality, its comical to even think there is
abortion is about TWO lives the woman and the ZEF, neither of which are this guy, common sense and pretty basic

bold: so if a ZEF is not a risk to the woman's life...she shouldn't be able to abort it either...

 

[AGENT J]

Re: Man Convicted for Tricking Girlfriend to Take Abortion Pills

bold: so if a ZEF is not a risk to the woman's life...she shouldn't be able to abort it either...

its alwasy a risk to the womans life, sometimes a small risk and sometimes a large risk but its always a factual risk to her health and life.

but my stance on abortion is trying to make it equal for BOTH lives, trying to protect both thier legal and human rights, eventhough thats factually impossible

 

[FederalRepublic]

Re: Man Convicted for Tricking Girlfriend to Take Abortion Pills

But that's the thing Sherman. This guy went to prison because it was trickery, because it wasn't voluntary, because the woman did not give her consent to do this. There is a massive difference between doing something and knowing the consequences and doing it voluntarily and being tricked into something.

If there were no side effects other than the aborted fetus, what's the difference between this and playing a prank on someone (as far as the law is concerned)? Should she be entitled to child support if she chose to have a baby that he doesn't want?

Personally, I think this guy is the lowest form of scum, but that's only because I see a baby. If a fetus isn't a baby, then there's really nothing wrong with it, right?

 

[OscarB63]

Re: Man Convicted for Tricking Girlfriend to Take Abortion Pills

its alwasy a risk to the womans life, sometimes a small risk and sometimes a large risk but its always a factual risk to her health and life.

but my stance on abortion is trying to make it equal for BOTH lives, trying to protect both thier legal and human rights, eventhough thats factually impossible

so, IOW, a ZEF only has legal and human rights when someone other than its mother wants to kill it?

 

[OscarB63]

Re: Man Convicted for Tricking Girlfriend to Take Abortion Pills

If there were no side effects other than the aborted fetus, what's the difference between this and playing a prank on someone (as far as the law is concerned)? Should she be entitled to child support if she chose to have a baby that he doesn't want?

Personally, I think this guy is the lowest form of scum, but that's only because I see a baby. If a fetus isn't a baby, then there's really nothing wrong with it, right?

exactly, if the fetus isn't really a person (as the pro-choicers claim) then this is really no different from spiking someone's coffee with ex-lax

 

[VanceMack]

Re: Man Convicted for Tricking Girlfriend to Take Abortion Pills

But that's the thing Sherman. This guy went to prison because it was trickery, because it wasn't voluntary, because the woman did not give her consent to do this. There is a massive difference between doing something and knowing the consequences and doing it voluntarily and being tricked into something.

What is the charge for "trickery" these days?

 

[Ben K.]

Man Convicted for Tricking Girlfriend to Take Abortion Pills

Not if he had been charged for such appropriately.

It simply is what it is. There is no real charge for what he did for her. This set of charges makes a plain statement, intended or not, that abuse of women is irrelevant to the prosecution.

Under what charges would he get the 13 years he apparently would get with this settlement? Like it or lump it, the laws in place determined this situation.

The message is no such thing. If someone barges into my house spraying bullets and a family member gets killed whilst I only get injured I wouldn't be unhappy that the focus of the case was the murder of the family member. From her perspective a family member was lost, from the legal teams perspective they nailed the guy with a sizeable sentence. There's no reason to denigrate either. Your issue should be with the law that allows the act against the embryo to carry a greater sentence than what he did to her.

 

[VanceMack]

Re: Man Convicted for Tricking Girlfriend to Take Abortion Pills

Well...that IS interesting. He was charged with killing her "unborn baby". How...conveeeeeeeeenient.

 

[AGENT J]

Re: Man Convicted for Tricking Girlfriend to Take Abortion Pills

so, IOW, a ZEF only has legal and human rights when someone other than its mother wants to kill it?

nope not even close

it always has human rights if one believes in human rights

it has little, to no legal rights at all but the ZEF does have some in general period

in this case where the ZEF/MOTHER were attacked by a third party laws kick in

just like if i see some guy using what "i" consider gross violence to get in your front door (im your neighbor and i have no idea who this guy is or what he is doing) and i shoot him in the back while stranding in my own yard, that's murder everywhere in the US

if im in MY house and you are using violent force to gain entry and i shoot you in many cases thats not murder (varies for different areas)

theres nothign new here and its very basic and common sense based. logically It actually falls in line with other parts of law, it wasnt a choice for the guy to make.

 

[AGENT J]

Re: Man Convicted for Tricking Girlfriend to Take Abortion Pills

exactly, if the fetus isn't really a person (as the pro-choicers claim) then this is really no different from spiking someone's coffee with ex-lax

how many pro-choicers use this for a sole argument for keeping abortion legal? NONE that i know of.
I know i certainly dont

 

[Dr. Chuckles]

Re: Man Convicted for Tricking Girlfriend to Take Abortion Pills

Just so you are aware, many prochoice people would never consider an abortion for themselves.

that doesn't really address the argument though

 

[Dr. Chuckles]

Re: Man Convicted for Tricking Girlfriend to Take Abortion Pills

My thoughts are drugging somebody without their knowledge should always be a crime. Groundbreaking, I know.

the question isn't about drugging people being a crime, but the inconsistency in application of law. You can't in one instance treat something as a person, then in another treat it as it is not (well, not if you want to adhere to anything resembling logic)

 

[OscarB63]

Re: Man Convicted for Tricking Girlfriend to Take Abortion Pills

the question isn't about drugging people being a crime, but the inconsistency in application of law. You can't in one instance treat something as a person, then in another treat it as it is not (well, not if you want to adhere to anything resembling logic)

exactly. as I said earlier, if you are not going to treat a ZEF/fetus/whatever as a person this "crime" was no different than spiking someone's drink with ex-lax.