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Majority of Americans Now Feel Iraq War Wrong

FinnMacCool said:
Simon's right that question doesn't make any sense and EVEN if it did make sense it would probably just be a set up for you to rant about somethign else.
Actually, they are very similar.

Liberals: There were no WMD's.
Why?: We haven't found them yet.

JKD COBRA: Holloway was never in Aruba.
Why: Because we haven't found her yet.

I am using the SAME liberal type of thinking in another situation. But you guys are doing my job for me. You keep saying "oh that doesn't make sense, that doesn't make sense" well guess what, YOUR RIGHT! It doesn't make sense! How could anyone honestly think Holloway was never in Aruba just because we haven't found her yet. But you know what? You guys use that type of thinking for the war in Iraq! So like you said yourself, it doesn't make sense.

But its no problem. You don't have to answer the question. . . because you already did :smile:
 
Stinger said:
How about posting a statement from the Bush administration saying that an attack was imminent.
The definition of a pre-emptive war is one that is in response to an imminent attack.
No imminent attack, no pre-emption- there woudl be nothing to pre-empt.

Perhaps your saying that Team Bush said we could wait a while before we took action against Iraq?



Press briefing May 7 2003

Q:
Well, we went to war, didn't we, to find these -- because we said that these weapons were a direct and imminent threat to the United States? Isn't that true?

MR. FLEISCHER:
Absolutely. One of the reasons that we went to war was because of their possession of weapons of mass destruction. And nothing has changed on that front at all. We said what we said because we meant it. We had the intelligence to report it. Secretary Powell said it. And I may point out to you, as you may know, there is a news conference at Department of Defense today at 2:00 p.m. to discuss one element in this.
Testimony Rumsfeld House Armed Services Committee regarding Iraq

There are a number of terrorist states pursuing weapons of mass destruction -- Iran, Libya, North Korea, Syria to name but a few. But no terrorist state poses a greater or more immediate threat to the security of our people and the stability of the world than the regime of Saddam Hussein in Iraq.

Some have argued that the nuclear threat from Iraq is not imminent, that Saddam Hussein is at least five to seven years away from having nuclear weapons. I would not be so certain.

But we should be just as concerned about the immediate threat from biological weapons. Iraq has these weapons. They're simpler to deliver and even more readily transferred to terrorist networks, who could allow Iraq to deliver them without Iraq's fingerprints. If you want an idea of the devastation Iraq could wreck on our country with a biological attack, consider the recent unclassified Dark Winter exercise conducted by Johns Hopkins University.
Secretary Rumsfeld Live Interview With Infinity CBS Radio Nov 14, 2002

Kroft: Mr. Secretary, we've also, in addition to phone calls, we've gotten emails, and I want to read one to you. I'm the parent of an Army Reserve soldier who has already gone through his training and is on the next call up list to be deployed to the Persian Gulf area within the next few weeks, for a period of six months to two years. I'm not yet convinced that Iraq is such an imminent threat to the United States that it justifies having my son placed in harms way. If I were there in person, speaking to you, what would you say to convince me?

Rumsfeld: Well, first, we're grateful that your son is serving, and wants to serve. And I can't help but recognize the feelings that a parent has. What would I say to you? Well, I would look you in the eye and I would say, go back before September 11th and ask yourself this question, was the attack that took place on September 11th an imminent threat the month before, or two months before, or three months before, or six months before? When did the attack on September 11th become an imminent threat? When was it sufficiently dangerous to our country that had we known about it that we could have stepped up and stopped it and saved 3,000 lives? Now, transport yourself forward a year, two years, or a week, or a month, and if Saddam Hussein were to take his weapons of mass destruction and transfer them, either use them himself, or transfer them to the al Qaeda, and somehow the al Qaeda were to engage in an attack on the United States, or an attack on U.S. forces overseas, with a weapon of mass destruction you're not talking about 300, or 3,000 people potentially being killed, but 30,000, or 100,000 of human beings. So the question is, when is it such an immediate threat that you must do something, is a tough question. But if you think about it, it's the nexus, the connection, the relationship between terrorist states and weapons of mass destruction with terrorist networks that has changed our lives, and changed the security environment in the world. And right now in the Congress the intelligence committees in the House and the Senate are working very hard, trying to connect the dots as to who knew what before September 11th, how might it have been stopped. Our task, your task as a mother, and as a citizen, as a voter, and my task, is to try to connect the dots before something happens, not afterwards. People say, well where's the smoking gun? Well, we don't want to see a smoking gun from a weapon of mass destruction. We have an obligation to try to defend the people of our country and the interests we have, and that is why the president went to the United Nations and sought a resolution, and received unanimous support to try to see if we can't get a peaceful solution to the Iraqi problem.
Press Briefing by Ari Fleischer January 2003

Q Some of those who have been reluctant to go along with us have, in essence, asked the question, what's the urgency, what is a sign that this is an imminent, like, immediate threat?

MR. FLEISCHER: And in that point what the President would tell you is that, one, Saddam Hussein has committed to giving up the weapons of mass destruction, and if the United Nations is to have a meaningful place in our world, the United Nations resolutions vis-a-vis Iraq to give up the weapons of mass destruction must be enforced. Otherwise, the world can never rest easy because he'll continue to have them.

Two, September 11th changed everything for the United States and, indeed, for this President. While the notion of containment may previously have made some sense prior to September 11th, September 11th changed everything because it shows that we are indeed a vulnerable country, that threats to us cannot be contained. As the President said in his State of the Union speech, imagine if any of the hijackers on September 11th had not only driven their planes into buildings, but were armed with a vial, a canister, a crate of a biological or a chemical weapon. The damage done to our country would have been massive. The risk remains and the risk is nowhere greater than under Saddam Hussein.
The United States Department of Defense
DoD News Briefing
Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld
Wednesday, January 29, 2003 – 2:18 p.m. EST


Q: Thank you. Do you believe Iraq represents an imminent threat to the United States?

Rumsfeld: You know, that is a question that is coming up quite a bit, and it's an important question.

Clearly, it's been — what's been going on there has been going on in large measure for some 12 years.

...

Now, at what moment was the threat to — for September 11th imminent? Was it imminent a week before, a month before, a year before, an hour before? Was it imminent before you could — while you could still stop it, or was it imminent only after it started and you couldn't stop it, or you could stop one of the three planes instead of two or all three?
There are more.

But please show where Team Bush said that invading Iraq wasn't something that had to be done posthaste to prevent Iraq from attacking the US.
 
"Majority of Americans Now Feel Iraq War Wrong"

Majority of Americans are fat too.

"About 61% of Americans, or 127 million people, weigh too much, according to the latest government statistics. And 26%, or 54 million are obese — that is, 30 or more pounds over a healthy weight. That's up from 15% in the late 1970s."

http://www.usatoday.com/life/2002/2002-02-19-diet.htm

So much for Americans knowing what is in there best interest.:roll:
 
Actually, they are very similar.

Liberals: There were no WMD's.
Why?: We haven't found them yet.

JKD COBRA: Holloway was never in Aruba.
Why: Because we haven't found her yet.

I am using the SAME liberal type of thinking in another situation. But you guys are doing my job for me. You keep saying "oh that doesn't make sense, that doesn't make sense" well guess what, YOUR RIGHT! It doesn't make sense! How could anyone honestly think Holloway was never in Aruba just because we haven't found her yet. But you know what? You guys use that type of thinking for the war in Iraq! So like you said yourself, it doesn't make sense.

But its no problem. You don't have to answer the question. . . because you already did

Sorry that doesn't make any sense either :confused:
 
"Majority of Americans Now Feel Iraq War Wrong"

Majority of Americans are fat too.

"About 61% of Americans, or 127 million people, weigh too much, according to the latest government statistics. And 26%, or 54 million are obese — that is, 30 or more pounds over a healthy weight. That's up from 15% in the late 1970s."

http://www.usatoday.com/life/2002/2002-02-19-diet.htm

So much for Americans knowing what is in there best interest.
Yes thats because the liberals are the ones that are skinny. Oh and didn't Bush have a 90% approval rating after 9/11?
 
AMERICANS REEVALUATE GOING TO WAR WITH IRAQ (.pdf)
November 13, 2003

An overwhelming 87% said “the Bush
administration, before the war, did… portray
Iraq as an imminent threat to the US.”
Most folks got the impression from case that the Admin made that we were going to conduct a pre-emptive attack. Again, w/o an imminent attack, there can be no pre-emptive attack.

Team Bush clearly made the case (contrary to what the US Intel community was saying) that if we didn't attack Iraq soon, then Iraq would attack us (possibly via proxies eg al-Qaida).
 
FinnMacCool said:
Yes thats because the liberals are the ones that are skinny. Oh and didn't Bush have a 90% approval rating after 9/11?


Goes to show ya. Americans love a war. They just get tired before long and start protesting. Korea....Vietnam...Somalia....Bosnia....Afghanistan....Iraq.....
 
FinnMacCool said:
So according to you the last war that we didn't protest in was World War Two? Yeah why is that :roll:

No, the isolationist protested very vigorously........well, until we were finally bombed by Japan, but who's counting.:lol:
 
No, the isolationist protested very vigorously........well, until we were finally bombed by Japan, but who's counting.
Ah yes thats correct. We were attacked :)

Also, Vietnam was the stupidest war we've ever fought. The whole idea of the war was based on if Vietnam fell to communism so would the neighboring countries but that turned out to be wrong. We tried to also fight the war in a half assed way. DId you know we dropped more bombs in Vietnam then we ever dropped in World War II?

I do believe though we should have intervened when Pol Pot was commiting mass genocide. Thats one war I believe we should've fought.
 
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JKD COBRA said:
Actually, they are very similar.

Liberals: There were no WMD's.
Why?: We haven't found them yet.

JKD COBRA: Holloway was never in Aruba.
Why: Because we haven't found her yet.

I am using the SAME liberal type of thinking in another situation. But you guys are doing my job for me. You keep saying "oh that doesn't make sense, that doesn't make sense" well guess what, YOUR RIGHT! It doesn't make sense! How could anyone honestly think Holloway was never in Aruba just because we haven't found her yet. But you know what? You guys use that type of thinking for the war in Iraq! So like you said yourself, it doesn't make sense.

But its no problem. You don't have to answer the question. . . because you already did :smile:
Nice work JDK COBRA, beat him with his own ideaology!
 
FinnMacCool said:
Ah yes thats correct. We were attacked :)

Also, Vietnam was the stupidest war we've ever fought. The whole idea of the war was based on if Vietnam fell to communism so would the neighboring countries but that turned out to be wrong. We tried to also fight the war in a half assed way. DId you know we dropped more bombs in Vietnam then we ever dropped in World War II?
And your numbers? What happened to linking to a source of information on where you read that? DEFEND YOUR STATEMENTS!
 
JKD COBRA said:
Actually, they are very similar.
Liberals: There were no WMD's.
Why?: We haven't found them yet.
JKD COBRA: Holloway was never in Aruba.
Why: Because we haven't found her yet.
I am using the SAME liberal type of thinking in another situation. But you guys are doing my job for me. You keep saying "oh that doesn't make sense, that doesn't make sense" well guess what, YOUR RIGHT! It doesn't make sense! How could anyone honestly think Holloway was never in Aruba just because we haven't found her yet. But you know what? You guys use that type of thinking for the war in Iraq! So like you said yourself, it doesn't make sense.
Apparently, by your account anyway, the US Intelligence Community follows this same line of thinking. Haven't you read the Comprehensive Report of the Special Advisor to the DCI on Iraq’s WMD yet?

You see, the US put together a team of more than 1000 folks to scour Iraq for evidence of WMD. This team of US-picked experts from around the globe had unfettered access to Iraq for as long as they thought was necessary. The name of this group was the Iraq Survey Group. They're the ones who put topgether the Comprehensive Report of the Special Advisor to the DCI on Iraq’s WMD that I'm about to quote.

re Nuclear efforts:
Iraq Survey Group (ISG) discovered further evidence of the maturity and significance of the pre-1991 Iraqi Nuclear Program but found that Iraq’s ability to reconstitute a nuclear weapons program progressively decayed after that date.
re Chemical Weapons:
While a small number of old, abandoned chemical munitions have been discovered, ISG judges that Iraq unilaterally destroyed its undeclared chemical weapons stockpile in 1991.
re Biological Weapons:
SG judges that in 1991 and 1992, Iraq appears to have destroyed its undeclared stocks of BW weapons and probably destroyed remaining holdings of bulk BW agent. However ISG lacks evidence to document complete destruction. Iraq retained some BW-related seed stocks until their discovery after Operation Iraqi Freedom (OIF).
So, here're the US's best experts saying that as far as they can tell, Hussein didn't have WMD at the start of OIF.
But, the US Intel Community's prob'ly just a bunch of liberals anyway. I mean they said that fighting the War on Terror and the proliferation of WMD was given priority over Iraq until Team Bushasked them to step up their Iraq efforts.
That's prob'ly why Team Bush didn't listen to the US Intel Community re post-war Iraq.
 
And your numbers? What happened to linking to a source of information on where you read that? DEFEND YOUR STATEMENTS!


We are on a public forum and this thread is about how the majority of americans believe the Iraq war is wrong. I did not start the topic and I do not have links readily available. It is really stupid to demand of me to provide a link for something that pertains to something that has absolutely nothing to do with the topic. I merely mentioned that off hand and I was not seeking to provide a huge account of links etc supporting my comment.

But I suppose you really do want to know where you can find this information yes? Well here is a really nice site for you to go to.
 
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Simon W. Moon said:
The definition of a pre-emptive war is one that is in response to an imminent attack.

No it's not. Were do you get that nonsense. And anyway it was not a pre-emptive war, it was a continuation of hostilities and enforcement of previous stipulations of a cease-fire agreement and UN resolutions which allowed Saddam to be in power and his regeim to rule.

No imminent attack, no pre-emption- there woudl be nothing to pre-empt.

Sorry but that is patent nonsense. Were we threatened with an imminent attack from Greenland when we attacked them?

Perhaps your saying that Team Bush said we could wait a while before we took action against Iraq?

Nope.





Post a cite with source of a Bush official saying that they thought there an imminent threat existed, not might exist later, existed NOW.
 
Stinger said:
Post a cite with source of a Bush official saying that they thought there an imminent threat existed, not might exist later, existed NOW.

Colin Powell addressing the United Nations Security Council a few weeks before the war...

"Our conservative estimate is that Iraq TODAY has a stockpile of between 100 and 500 tons of chemical weapons agent. That is enough to fill 16,000 battlefield rockets."

Sure sounds like an imminent threat to me, and to every other American at that time.
 
Simon - http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2002/SC7564.doc.htm
---------------------------------------------------------------
"JOHN NEGROPONTE (United States) said that the resolution constituted the world community’s demand that Iraq disclose and destroy its weapons of mass destruction. The new course in that effort would send a clear message to Iraq insisting it disarm or face the consequences. Describing the text, he said that Iraq had ignored obligations essential to peace and security."

"The resolution, he said, confirmed what had been clear for years -– that Iraq had been and remained in violation of disarmament obligations. To redress that situation, the resolution gave UNMOVIC and the IAEA a new, powerful mandate. But the inspections would not work unless the regime cooperated fully with those organizations. He hoped that all Member States now would press Iraq to undertake that cooperation. Every act of Iraqi non-compliance would be a serious matter, because it would mean that Iraq had no intention of disarming."

"JEREMY GREENSTOCK (United Kingdom) said no shadow of a doubt remained that Iraq had defied the United Nations over the last 11 years. With the adoption of the resolution, the Council had clearly stated that the United Nations would no longer tolerate that defiance. The resolution made crystal clear that Iraq was being given a final opportunity to comply with its disarmament obligations. The regime in Baghdad now faced an unequivocal choice: between complete disarmament and the serious consequences indicated in paragraph 13 of the resolution. The overwhelming support of Council members sent the most powerful signal to Iraq that it could no longer evade its obligations under United Nations resolutions.



He said a key part of the resolution was the provisions giving inspectors the “penetrating” strength needed to ensure the successful disarmament of Iraq. Those provisions would reinforce international confidence in the inspections. He hoped it would also lead Iraq away from a fatal decision to conceal its weapons of mass destruction. He had full confidence in Hans Blix and Mohamed El-Baradei and their teams, and full respect for their integrity and independence. He said there was no “automaticity” in the resolution. If there was a further Iraqi breach of its disarmament obligations, the matter would return to the Council for discussion. He expected the Council then to meet its responsibilities.



Ultimately, the choice lay with Iraq as to whether to take the peaceful route to disarmament. He hoped that Iraq would fully cooperate with the United Nations, meet its obligations, and take the path back to the lifting of sanctions, laid out in resolutions 1284 and 687. “But if Iraq chooses defiance and concealment, rejecting the final opportunity it has been given by the Council in operative paragraph 2, the United Kingdom -– together, we trust, with other members of the Council -– will ensure that the task of disarmament required by the resolutions is completed”, he said."
-------------------------------------------------------------

The UN was not doing it's job. Iraq was clearly in defiance. And were not just going to sit around and wait for someone else to fix things. Thats not what this country does. We have to take care of ourselves. Its called leadership. You don't just sit around and wait for something to happen. And that goes for anything, politics or business.
 
Stinger said:
No it's not. Were do you get that nonsense.
Oh you know, the dictionary, the Navy War College, nonsense spewers like that.
Where'd you get the idea that preemptive war could involve something other than an imminent threat?

Stinger said:
And anyway it was not a pre-emptive war, it was a continuation of hostilities and enforcement of previous stipulations of a cease-fire agreement and UN resolutions which allowed Saddam to be in power and his regeim to rule.
Of course it wasn't a preemptive war. That's my point. It was in fact a preventive war.

Question is, since it wasn't a preemptive war, why did Team Bush sell it as a preemptive war?

Stinger said:
Sorry but that is patent nonsense. Were we threatened with an imminent attack from Greenland when we attacked them?
Nonsense or not, it is the accepted definition of preemptive war. You can rail against it all you like and pass judgment overthe definitioon til you're blue in the face, but it still means what it means.

Stinger said:
Post a cite with source of a Bush official saying that they thought there an imminent threat existed, not might exist later, existed NOW.
Umm ...
Perhaps a definition of imminent is in order here. You see, 'immininent' by it's definition means that it exists now.
These quotes are all from the past. They say that Iraq presented an imminent threat in the past when we attacked. Re-examine if you will. Take special note of he verb tenses that speak to the time frame involved

Press briefing May 7 2003
Q:
Well, we went to war, didn't we, to find these -- because we said that these weapons were a direct and imminent threat to the United States? Isn't that true?

MR. FLEISCHER:
Absolutely. One of the reasons that we went to war was because of their possession of weapons of mass destruction. And nothing has changed on that front at all. We said what we said because we meant it. We had the intelligence to report it. Secretary Powell said it. And I may point out to you, as you may know, there is a news conference at Department of Defense today at 2:00 p.m. to discuss one element in this.
Testimony Rumsfeld House Armed Services Committee regarding Iraq
There are a number of terrorist states pursuing weapons of mass destruction -- Iran, Libya, North Korea, Syria to name but a few. But no terrorist state poses a greater or more immediate threat to the security of our people and the stability of the world than the regime of Saddam Hussein in Iraq.

Some have argued that the nuclear threat from Iraq is not imminent, that Saddam Hussein is at least five to seven years away from having nuclear weapons. I would not be so certain.

But we should be just as concerned about the immediate threat from biological weapons. Iraq has these weapons. They're simpler to deliver and even more readily transferred to terrorist networks, who could allow Iraq to deliver them without Iraq's fingerprints. If you want an idea of the devastation Iraq could wreck on our country with a biological attack, consider the recent unclassified Dark Winter exercise conducted by Johns Hopkins University.
Tell you what, rather than me go through these and help you see what time frame these folks were talking about,

how about you show me where I presented a quote that talked about an imminent threat that "might exist later."
 
JKD COBRA said:
Simon - http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2002/SC7564.doc.htm
The UN was not doing it's job. Iraq was clearly in defiance. And were not just going to sit around and wait for someone else to fix things. Thats not what this country does. We have to take care of ourselves. Its called leadership. You don't just sit around and wait for something to happen. And that goes for anything, politics or business.

Sure, sure whatever platitudes you'd like.

None of this speaks to what we had been addressing.
Nor does it mean that what was done was the best coure of action nor even that it was just not-a-bad-idea.
 
Stinger said:
Post a cite with source of a Bush official saying that they thought there an imminent threat existed, not might exist later, existed NOW.

It's worth noting that you quoted a link for a conversation that happened in the past [Press briefing May 7 2003] where the participants discussed events that occured prior to the conversation and you try to portray this as a discussion about potential events in the future.

I'm not sure what to make of your apparent confusion about time and/or verb tenses. Perhaps you come by it honest, perhaps you're attempting an argument by attrition.
In any case I know that what you doing to my leg doesn't mean it's raining.
 
Simon W. Moon said:
Sure, sure whatever platitudes you'd like.

None of this speaks to what we had been addressing.
Nor does it mean that what was done was the best coure of action nor even that it was just not-a-bad-idea.
We are talking about the reasons we went to war. So yes, it does speak to what we have been addressing. It clearly shows that Iraq was not abiding by the rules.

But, why don't you just say your a democrat. If your not going to support the Republican part, why not just be a democrat?
 
JKD COBRA said:
We are talking about the reasons we went to war. So yes, it does speak to what we have been addressing. It clearly shows that Iraq was not abiding by the rules.
It does nothing to show that the invasion was necessary, the best idea or even that it was not a ****-poor idea.

So I take it you've decided to abandon the whole Hussein-really-did-have-WMD-even-though-we-haven't-found-them-yet angle?

JKD COBRA said:
But, why don't you just say your a democrat. If your not going to support the Republican part, why not just be a democrat?
Why don't you just say that you and Team Bush are borrow-and-spend big-government liberals who're getting their foreign policy cues from Socialists and Trotskyites?
 
What does it matter what Americans think anyway? We have such a fickle and feeble minded society, that doesn't have a clue what is in their best interests,...who cares what they think?
 
GySgt said:
What does it matter what Americans think anyway? We have such a fickle and feeble minded society, that doesn't have a clue what is in their best interests,...who cares what they think?
sarcasm or elitism?
 
Of course it wasn't a preemptive war. That's my point. It was in fact a preventive war.

Question is, since it wasn't a preemptive war, why did Team Bush sell it as a preemptive war?
 
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