Majority of Americans do not want The Wall.

[Mach]

My post was not about party

I've been hearing that refrain from those opposed to it since the whole hubbub started. Mainly from Democrats. It's become a mantra by now.

Kal, I feel for you man, I can't help it.

Also, you're fishing (trolling is a form of fishing where you just put your line in the water and drag it around) for hypocrisy to attack. Shame on you.
Hypocrisy is at best, a secondary/derivative issue, even when it's accurate. In this case, it's not even accurate.

Being against the wall and using "it's not popular" to attack it, is reasonable, if it's not popular.
Obamacare is an entirely different proposal, and you'd have to understand the nuance of that proposal and its viability with or without the mandate, etc., what the Republicans were doing in opposition to it (I think I recall they won a special election and it made Democrats have to act, otherwise Republicans would have blown it up, as usual).
For any person posting, you'd have to do some deep dive into the nuances of the proposal, the time, their state of mind, etc., and try to extract what specifically they were debating.
And then fast forward to today's argument and try to get an apples to apples comparison (which may be impossible).

If you can manage all of that, best case for you is that you'll be calling them a "Hypocrite!!". And how's that gonna work for you? Attack the person, and not debating the issues. That's sad Kal, you can do better.

 

[Rogue Valley]

I've been hearing that refrain from those opposed to it since the whole hubbub started. Mainly from Democrats. It's become a mantra by now.

So, I have a question for those that state this.

Where were you when the majority of American's did not want Obamacare, in particular the mandate?

A rather poor attempt to equate/conflate two different and unique events in American history.

Trump said this morning that he isn't taking friend Lindsey Grahams's advice about reopening the government, so the Trump shutdown drones on.....

“I will take the mantle. I will be the one to shut it down.”

 

[Perotista]

I've been hearing that refrain from those opposed to it since the whole hubbub started. Mainly from Democrats. It's become a mantra by now.

So, I have a question for those that state this.

Where were you when the majority of American's did not want Obamacare, in particular the mandate?

Of course don't think that the hypocrisy shown by Democrats on this issue is based solely on the Democrats side. Republicans are just as guilty. When the majority of Americans did not want Obamacare Republicans were going around saying the same mantra. When it comes to The Wall Republicans are ignoring that little aspect just as Democrats ignored it for Obamacare.

This just shows one of the many reasons that Party Ideology is a hazard to this country and why I wish to God that Americans would stop voting for Party and start looking at and voting on the Issues.

FYI - For the wall 39%, against the wall 46%. a plurality against. Most Americans aren't against or in favor as both sides boast. The seven point difference in reality isn't all that much. Question 18.

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/f0al8raalq/econTabReport.pdf

As for Obamacare at the time the senate and house voted on it.

Below are the polls thanks to RCP of public opinion on the ACA when the Senate passed it in November of 2009
CNN/Opinion Research 12/2-12/3 36% for 61% Against/Oppose +25
Rasmussen Reports 11/29 - 11/29 41% for 53% Against/Oppose +12
Gallup 11/20-11/22 44% for 49% Against/Oppose +5
Ipsos/McClatchy 11/19 - 11/22 34% for 46% Against/Oppose +12
Rasmussen Reports 11/21 - 11/22 38% for 56% Against/Oppose +18
FOX News 11/17 - 11/18 35% for 51% Against/Oppose +16
PPP (D) 11/13 - 11/15 40% for 52% Against/Oppose +12

Below are the polls thanks to RCP of public opinion on the ACA when the House passed it in March of 2010
Bloomberg 3/19 - 3/22 38% for 50% Against/Oppose +12
CNN/Opinion Research 3/19 - 3/21 39% for 59% Against/Oppose +20
CBS News 3/18 - 3/21 37% for 48% Against/Oppose +11
Rasmussen Reports 3/19 - 3/20 41% for 54% Against/Oppose +13
Quinnipiac 3/16 - 3/21 36% for 54% Against/Oppose +18
Democracy Corps (D) 3/15 - 3/18 40% for 52% Against/Oppose +12
FOX News 3/16 - 3/17 35% 55% Against/Oppose +20

It comes out to approximately 38% for, 53% against. A majority, not a plurality against. A 15 point difference instead of 7. Of course the Democrats paid the price of not listening to America as a whole in 2010.

I also agree, the core tenet of both major parties is hypocrisy. You can also look at how almost every Democrat opposed raising the debt ceiling during Bush, but almost every Democrat supported raising it during Obama. Vice Versa is true of the Republicans. Almost all of them supported raising the debt ceiling during Bush, opposed it during Obama. No core values. Either you're for or against, a change in presidents shouldn't make one iota of a difference. That is unless your core party values are in the class A hypocrite column.

 

[tres borrachos]

I've been hearing that refrain from those opposed to it since the whole hubbub started. Mainly from Democrats. It's become a mantra by now.

So, I have a question for those that state this.

Where were you when the majority of American's did not want Obamacare, in particular the mandate?

Of course don't think that the hypocrisy shown by Democrats on this issue is based solely on the Democrats side. Republicans are just as guilty. When the majority of Americans did not want Obamacare Republicans were going around saying the same mantra. When it comes to The Wall Republicans are ignoring that little aspect just as Democrats ignored it for Obamacare.

This just shows one of the many reasons that Party Ideology is a hazard to this country and why I wish to God that Americans would stop voting for Party and start looking at and voting on the Issues.

The ACA, for all its faults, actually brought the uninsured rates in the country down to less than 10% of the none-elderly population during Obama's Presidency. Over 20 million Americans got insurance thanks to the ACA. So it had demonstrable returns.

Nobody knows what the wall will deliver.

 

[OrphanSlug]

I've been hearing that refrain from those opposed to it since the whole hubbub started. Mainly from Democrats. It's become a mantra by now.

So, I have a question for those that state this.

Where were you when the majority of American's did not want Obamacare, in particular the mandate?

Of course don't think that the hypocrisy shown by Democrats on this issue is based solely on the Democrats side. Republicans are just as guilty. When the majority of Americans did not want Obamacare Republicans were going around saying the same mantra. When it comes to The Wall Republicans are ignoring that little aspect just as Democrats ignored it for Obamacare.

This just shows one of the many reasons that Party Ideology is a hazard to this country and why I wish to God that Americans would stop voting for Party and start looking at and voting on the Issues.

Context is everything.

The majority of Americans did not want the mandate I agree, but the overwhelming majority of Americans did want pre-existing conditions covered, removal of lifetime limits, what have you.

The majority of Americans (including Democrats) want border security, but the overwhelming majority do not agree with shutting down government to get a wall.

The hypocrisy we are seeing is in how we get to the majority of Americans wanting this, or not wanting that.

Politically speaking we are seeing an awful game being played that ends up punishing all the wrong people (government workers having to work without pay or not even working at all.) The mantra seems to ignore how we got to this point with the shutdown over this wall.

The irony is we already spend on border security. We already spend almost $40 billion per year on physical barriers, enforcement infrastructure, detection technology, agents, vehicles and equipment, processing centers, port of entry protections, etc. The $5 billion for a wall (or fence, or whatever the hell it is called today) ends up being dubious. There are parts of the border that have a wall, other parts more fenced, others probably little to nothing but patrolling.

The whole conversation about "border security" is off the rails, and most of the mantra from both sides is devoid of what we actually have down there and why.

 

[KevinKohler]

The ACA, for all its faults, actually brought the uninsured rates in the country down to less than 10% of the none-elderly population during Obama's Presidency. Over 20 million Americans got insurance thanks to the ACA. So it had demonstrable returns.

Nobody knows what the wall will deliver.

Exactly what people knew about the ACA when it get passed. Remember? Had to pass the thing, to find out what's in it. I believe that was a quote...from someone...

 

[Acadia]

Exactly what people knew about the ACA when it get passed. Remember? Had to pass the thing, to find out what's in it. I believe that was a quote...from someone...

Hmm...sounds familiar

 

[Acadia]

FYI - For the wall 39%, against the wall 46%. a plurality against. Most Americans aren't against or in favor as both sides boast. The seven point difference in reality isn't all that much. Question 18.

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/f0al8raalq/econTabReport.pdf

As for Obamacare at the time the senate and house voted on it.

Below are the polls thanks to RCP of public opinion on the ACA when the Senate passed it in November of 2009
CNN/Opinion Research 12/2-12/3 36% for 61% Against/Oppose +25
Rasmussen Reports 11/29 - 11/29 41% for 53% Against/Oppose +12
Gallup 11/20-11/22 44% for 49% Against/Oppose +5
Ipsos/McClatchy 11/19 - 11/22 34% for 46% Against/Oppose +12
Rasmussen Reports 11/21 - 11/22 38% for 56% Against/Oppose +18
FOX News 11/17 - 11/18 35% for 51% Against/Oppose +16
PPP (D) 11/13 - 11/15 40% for 52% Against/Oppose +12

Below are the polls thanks to RCP of public opinion on the ACA when the House passed it in March of 2010
Bloomberg 3/19 - 3/22 38% for 50% Against/Oppose +12
CNN/Opinion Research 3/19 - 3/21 39% for 59% Against/Oppose +20
CBS News 3/18 - 3/21 37% for 48% Against/Oppose +11
Rasmussen Reports 3/19 - 3/20 41% for 54% Against/Oppose +13
Quinnipiac 3/16 - 3/21 36% for 54% Against/Oppose +18
Democracy Corps (D) 3/15 - 3/18 40% for 52% Against/Oppose +12
FOX News 3/16 - 3/17 35% 55% Against/Oppose +20

It comes out to approximately 38% for, 53% against. A majority, not a plurality against. A 15 point difference instead of 7. Of course the Democrats paid the price of not listening to America as a whole in 2010.

I also agree, the core tenet of both major parties is hypocrisy. You can also look at how almost every Democrat opposed raising the debt ceiling during Bush, but almost every Democrat supported raising it during Obama. Vice Versa is true of the Republicans. Almost all of them supported raising the debt ceiling during Bush, opposed it during Obama. No core values. Either you're for or against, a change in presidents shouldn't make one iota of a difference. That is unless your core party values are in the class A hypocrite column.

Sadly, partisan politics is getting worse. It's worth noting that strong opposition to the wall is decreasing, while approval (while still minority) has increased over that past year. That, in the face of constantly hearing about how walls are immoral and don't work and what's the Dems' talking point today? Oh, right, it's a "vanity project".

 

[roughdraft274]

Exactly what people knew about the ACA when it get passed. Remember? Had to pass the thing, to find out what's in it. I believe that was a quote...from someone...

The public, if they cared to find out, could know of just about everything in the ACA at the time. Nancy said that in reference to the fact that republicans were lying about death panels. When you have almost half the country believing lies about death panels then of course, it's hard to make it popular. She obviously meant we need to pass it so that people can find out what's actually in the bill vs. all the lies they are hearing from talk radio and nutjob dumbass's like Sarah "**** for brains" Palin.

This isn't debateable. We don't even have an exact plan from the Trump admin of exactly where and what kind of walls we will build, no CBO studies on prices (because no plans exist), nor any studies of how effective they'd be in actually reducing illegal immigration.

 

[tres borrachos]

Exactly what people knew about the ACA when it get passed. Remember? Had to pass the thing, to find out what's in it. I believe that was a quote...from someone...

Yes, it delivered insurance coverage to 20 million people. And a lot more which others in this thread mentioned. It allowed my sister in law to live a few years longer with her cancer because the million dollar lifetime limit was removed.

Please tell me what the wall will deliver. Specifically. How many people will it keep out? How much has the CBO projected it will save the taxpayers?

 

[tres borrachos]

The public, if they cared to find out, could know of just about everything in the ACA at the time. Nancy said that in reference to the fact that republicans were lying about death panels. When you have almost half the country believing lies about death panels then of course, it's hard to make it popular. She obviously meant we need to pass it so that people can find out what's actually in the bill vs. all the lies they are hearing from talk radio and nutjob dumbass's like Sarah "**** for brains" Palin.

This isn't debateable. We don't even have an exact plan from the Trump admin of exactly where and what kind of walls we will build, no CBO studies on prices (because no plans exist), nor any studies of how effective they'd be in actually reducing illegal immigration.

My husband and I are still waiting for the death panels that Palin said were coming.

 

[roughdraft274]

My husband and I are still waiting for the death panels that Palin said were coming.

Any minute now. Any minute. I'm sure there's language in the bill tucked away that the death panels don't start up for a decade after the bill is passed. :roll:

 

[roughdraft274]

Yes, it delivered insurance coverage to 20 million people. And a lot more which others in this thread mentioned. It allowed my sister in law to live a few years longer with her cancer because the million dollar lifetime limit was removed.

Please tell me what the wall will deliver. Specifically. How many people will it keep out? How much has the CBO projected it will save the taxpayers?

Exactly. Keep asking for studies and numbers.

I frequently do estimates and studies for the chemical plants that we do engineering for. I have projects that the all in cost will be less than a million bucks, some as little as 250k, and my company does more work to figure out the exact cost, the benefits to the plant, the duration, the details of how to get it done, the possible problems etc for these projects than we've seen coming out of the white house regarding this 5 billion dollar expenditure. It is astounding that we don't have any of this.

 

[tres borrachos]

Exactly. Keep asking for studies and numbers.

I frequently do estimates and studies for the chemical plants that we do engineering for. I have projects that the all in cost will be less than a million bucks, some as little as 250k, and my company does more work to figure out the exact cost, the benefits to the plant, the duration, the details of how to get it done, the possible problems etc for these projects than we've seen coming out of the white house regarding this 5 billion dollar expenditure. It is astounding that we don't have any of this.

There are no studies. We can ask until we're blue in the face, and they won't come.

I have plenty of issues with the ACA. But at least we had studies by the CBO and other groups, and what was predicted (uninsured rate below 10%) came to fruition.

I live and die by studies and facts. I've yet to see one from Trump or one of his loyal fans.

 

[KevinKohler]

Yes, it delivered insurance coverage to 20 million people. And a lot more which others in this thread mentioned. It allowed my sister in law to live a few years longer with her cancer because the million dollar lifetime limit was removed.

Please tell me what the wall will deliver. Specifically. How many people will it keep out? How much has the CBO projected it will save the taxpayers?

OH, I don't support the wall. Wasted effort, IMO. However...when I see hypocracy, I point it out.

 

[tres borrachos]

OH, I don't support the wall. Wasted effort, IMO. However...when I see hypocracy, I point it out.

Hypocrisy.

I don't remember a lot of your posts pointing out the hypocrisy exhibited by Trump, but I'm sure you made hundreds of them.

There is no comparison to what Pelosi said, which was explained to you by another poster, and what Trump is doing today, without any studies, any CBO numbers, etc.

I don't support or not support a wall. I don't care about it at all. I'm so sick of hearing about it.

 

[KevinKohler]

Hypocrisy.

I don't remember a lot of your posts pointing out the hypocrisy exhibited by Trump, but I'm sure you made hundreds of them.

There is no comparison to what Pelosi said, which was explained to you by another poster, and what Trump is doing today, without any studies, any CBO numbers, etc.

I don't support or not support a wall. I don't care about it at all. I'm so sick of hearing about it.

You can talk CBO projections all day long...no one that voted for ACA read the damn thing, including Obama.

As for Trumps hypocrisy, I have. The man attacked Obama repeatedly for vacations and what not, then does the same thing. A lot of the other stuff is noise from a media that is heavily against him. Pointing out his evils, though those exact same evils existed and were manifest in previous presidents, including Obama.


Bottom line is, he's a president. Just like all the ones before, though he suffers more from foot in mouth than any I can think of.

 

[tres borrachos]

You can talk CBO projections all day long...no one that voted for ACA read the damn thing, including Obama.

As for Trumps hypocrisy, I have. The man attacked Obama repeatedly for vacations and what not, then does the same thing. A lot of the other stuff is noise from a media that is heavily against him. Pointing out his evils, though those exact same evils existed and were manifest in previous presidents, including Obama.


Bottom line is, he's a president. Just like all the ones before, though he suffers more from foot in mouth than any I can think of.

Obama didn't vote on the ACA. He was President then. The President doesn't vote on legislation.

I don't know who read what. Did you work for every Congressional rep and Senator and know what they or their staffers read? I didn't, so I don't know whose staffer read what. I'm sure most didn't read every word of it. Just like I'm sure most of the Republican lawmakers didn't read every word of Trump's wonderful tax break bill. Or maybe they did, I don't know. Not that it matters - it still doesn't change the fact that Pelosi said something that really hasn't got anything to do with what we're discussing.

Bottom line, he's the President, yes. But I didn't think that was up for debate.

 

[Greenbeard]

I've been hearing that refrain from those opposed to it since the whole hubbub started. Mainly from Democrats. It's become a mantra by now.

So, I have a question for those that state this.

Where were you when the majority of American's did not want Obamacare, in particular the mandate?

Of course don't think that the hypocrisy shown by Democrats on this issue is based solely on the Democrats side. Republicans are just as guilty. When the majority of Americans did not want Obamacare Republicans were going around saying the same mantra. When it comes to The Wall Republicans are ignoring that little aspect just as Democrats ignored it for Obamacare.

This just shows one of the many reasons that Party Ideology is a hazard to this country and why I wish to God that Americans would stop voting for Party and start looking at and voting on the Issues.

Obamacare had the votes. The wall doesn’t.

That was true last session under GOP control and it’s true now that the voters have weighed in to install a Dem House to check Trump.

 

[Perotista]

Sadly, partisan politics is getting worse. It's worth noting that strong opposition to the wall is decreasing, while approval (while still minority) has increased over that past year. That, in the face of constantly hearing about how walls are immoral and don't work and what's the Dems' talking point today? Oh, right, it's a "vanity project".

Yes, for the good of the political party has overtaken the for the good of the country. I haven't followed the polls for the wall, so I don't know what they were a year ago. I'll take your word for it. Most political issues are dynamic and change all the time.

 

[Grokmaster]

According to liberals, most Americans didn't want Trump for president, either.

Fortunately, we don't abide by mob rule.


On that note, however...I am NOT in favor of the wall. Go after the reasons people are willing to come here illegally in the first place. Cure the disease, don't treat the symptoms.

PLUS the wall....

 

[Grokmaster]

Obama didn't vote on the ACA. He was President then. The President doesn't vote on legislation.

I don't know who read what. Did you work for every Congressional rep and Senator and know what they or their staffers read? I didn't, so I don't know whose staffer read what. I'm sure most didn't read every word of it. Just like I'm sure most of the Republican lawmakers didn't read every word of Trump's wonderful tax break bill. Or maybe they did, I don't know. Not that it matters - it still doesn't change the fact that Pelosi said something that really hasn't got anything to do with what we're discussing.

Bottom line, he's the President, yes. But I didn't think that was up for debate.

He SIGNED IT. Der...

 

[Mr Person]

Obama didn't vote on the ACA. He was President then. The President doesn't vote on legislation.

I don't know who read what. Did you work for every Congressional rep and Senator and know what they or their staffers read? I didn't, so I don't know whose staffer read what. I'm sure most didn't read every word of it. Just like I'm sure most of the Republican lawmakers didn't read every word of Trump's wonderful tax break bill. Or maybe they did, I don't know. Not that it matters - it still doesn't change the fact that Pelosi said something that really hasn't got anything to do with what we're discussing.

Bottom line, he's the President, yes. But I didn't think that was up for debate.

It's a bit worse. See, he remembers this bit:

Exactly what people knew about the ACA when it get passed. Remember? Had to pass the thing, to find out what's in it. I believe that was a quote...from someone...

That he would say that shows he never actually bothered to find out what the full quote was. He's only regurgitating the little slice carved out by heavily biased media (a complaint he has no doubt aimed at MSNBC or the like at some point).

The full quote, which is quite different, was:



Imagine an economy where people could follow their aspirations, where they could be entrepreneurial, where they could take risks professionally because personally their families [sic] health care needs are being met. Where they could be self-employed or start a business, not be job-locked in a job because they have health care there, and if they went out on their own it would be unaffordable to them, but especially true, if someone has a child with a pre-existing condition. So when we pass our bill, never again will people be denied coverage because they have a pre-existing condition. We have to do this in partnership, and I wanted to bring [you] up to date on where we see it from here. The final health care legislation that will soon be passed by Congress will deliver successful reform at the local level. It will offer paid for investments that will improve health care services and coverage for millions more Americans. It will make significant investments in innovation, prevention, wellness and offer robust support for public health infrastructure. It will dramatically expand investments into community health centers. That means a dramatic expansion in the number of patients community health centers can see and ultimately healthier communities. Our bill will significantly reduce uncompensated care for hospitals. You’ve heard about the controversies within the bill, the process about the bill, one or the other. But I don’t know if you have heard that it is legislation for the future, not just about health care for America, but about a healthier America, where preventive care is not something that you have to pay a deductible for or out of pocket. Prevention, prevention, prevention–it’s about diet, not diabetes. It’s going to be very, very exciting. But we have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it, away from the fog of the controversy.

FACT CHECK: Did Nancy Pelosi Say Obamacare Must be Passed to 'Find Out What Is in It'?







Basically, not only was it an irrelevant whattaboutism not made for purposes of comparison, it was simply wrong.

 

[KevinKohler]

It's a bit worse. See, he remembers this bit:



That he would say that shows he never actually bothered to find out what the full quote was. He's only regurgitating the little slice carved out by heavily biased media (a complaint he has no doubt aimed at MSNBC or the like at some point).

The full quote, which is quite different, was:



Imagine an economy where people could follow their aspirations, where they could be entrepreneurial, where they could take risks professionally because personally their families [sic] health care needs are being met. Where they could be self-employed or start a business, not be job-locked in a job because they have health care there, and if they went out on their own it would be unaffordable to them, but especially true, if someone has a child with a pre-existing condition. So when we pass our bill, never again will people be denied coverage because they have a pre-existing condition. We have to do this in partnership, and I wanted to bring [you] up to date on where we see it from here. The final health care legislation that will soon be passed by Congress will deliver successful reform at the local level. It will offer paid for investments that will improve health care services and coverage for millions more Americans. It will make significant investments in innovation, prevention, wellness and offer robust support for public health infrastructure. It will dramatically expand investments into community health centers. That means a dramatic expansion in the number of patients community health centers can see and ultimately healthier communities. Our bill will significantly reduce uncompensated care for hospitals. You’ve heard about the controversies within the bill, the process about the bill, one or the other. But I don’t know if you have heard that it is legislation for the future, not just about health care for America, but about a healthier America, where preventive care is not something that you have to pay a deductible for or out of pocket. Prevention, prevention, prevention–it’s about diet, not diabetes. It’s going to be very, very exciting. But we have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it, away from the fog of the controversy.

FACT CHECK: Did Nancy Pelosi Say Obamacare Must be Passed to 'Find Out What Is in It'?







Basically, not only was it an irrelevant whattaboutism not made for purposes of comparison, it was simply wrong.

Sucks when people take snippets of what someone says and uses it out of context, doesn't it?

 

[eohrnberger]

Sucks when people take snippets of what someone says and uses it out of context, doesn't it?

Neither side is particularly better than the other on that count.
That being said, seem rather rampant the last 2 years or so.

How often the headlines reversed with the patience of just waiting 24 - 48 hours.