Majority Favors Limiting Abortion to first 20 Weeks - Women more than Men[W:86]

[nota bene]

Re: Majority Favors Limiting Abortion to first 20 Weeks - Women more in favor than Me

I think she's the worst. She along with the others call all the pro-lifers here women haters who want to enslave women, but if we ever talk about it, they act like they would never say anything so disrespectful and hyperbolic.

There's plenty of blame to go around. Why don't all of us who are sane and reasonable take the pledge not to name-call and otherwise make our posts about personalities?

 

[Scrabaholic]

Re: Majority Favors Limiting Abortion to first 20 Weeks - Women more in favor than Me

I'm so tired of the accusations of lying in this forum. Adds nothing but flames to the discourse.

Tough. If someone is lying about me, I will call them out on it.

 

[Scrabaholic]

Re: Majority Favors Limiting Abortion to first 20 Weeks - Women more in favor than Me

I think she's the worst. She along with the others call all the pro-lifers here women haters who want to enslave women, but if we ever talk about it, they act like they would never say anything so disrespectful and hyperbolic.

Please stop lying about what I have said or not said.

 

[Peter King]

Re: Majority Favors Limiting Abortion to first 20 Weeks - Women more in favor than Me

Uh-oh. That's a lot of people for Scrab and Minnie to give the death penalty to. And a lot of men for joko to castrate, presumably before Scrab and Minnie execute them.

who exactly talks about murder here regularly? The anti-choice people.

Who talks about putting women in prison for having an abortion? The anti-choice people.

Who talks about putting people in life for being accessories to abortion? The anti-choice people.

We don't want to castrate men or execute. I would think that most people who are progressive enough for supporting pro-choice are likely progressive enough to oppose the death penalty.

It is the Christian moral crowd who talks about an eye for an eye and who work so hard to deny women their constitutional right for privacy of their own body, who are conservative enough to want things like the death penalty.

 

[Bob Blaylock]

Re: Majority Favors Limiting Abortion to first 20 Weeks - Women more in favor than Me

who exactly talks about murder here regularly? The anti-choice people.

It is the “pro-choice” side that openly defends and advocates murder of the very most innocent and defenseless of all human beings. Denying that what you advocate is murder does not change what it is, nor does it change what you are for supporting it.

 

[AGENT J]

Re: Majority Favors Limiting Abortion to first 20 Weeks - Women more in favor than Me

no surprise here at all most people i meet in real life are fine with abortion with limits and most talk about viability so this only goes right in stride with that. There is ZERO surprise and theres ZERO interesting info or stats here :shrug:

as far as the argument "war on women" i've never seen anybody make that argument based on a viability limit "alone" ever, not once. Not saying it hasnt happened but it must be super rare and this hardly does anything to go against the arguments i have heard using that "catch phrase"

i have a better question are there any self proclaimed pro-lifers here that are ok with viability (20-21) weeks being the cut off? any?

 

[Dr. Chuckles]

Re: Majority Favors Limiting Abortion to first 20 Weeks - Women more in favor than Me

I think she's the worst. She along with the others call all the pro-lifers here women haters who want to enslave women, but if we ever talk about it, they act like they would never say anything so disrespectful and hyperbolic.

there is some truth to this

 

[Peter King]

Re: Majority Favors Limiting Abortion to first 20 Weeks - Women more in favor than Me

It is the “pro-choice” side that openly defends and advocates murder of the very most innocent and defenseless of all human beings. Denying that what you advocate is murder does not change what it is, nor does it change what you are for supporting it.

It is your opinion that it is murder, murder is when one human being takes the life of another human being. A ZEF is not a human being, it does not have any form of viability at the moment of abortion and the ZEF also does not have personhood.

It is your very narrow subjective opinion that abortion is murder. Ending a pregnancy is not murder and it is such twisted views that make it "normal" for some of the anti-choice crowd use that as a justification for violence against people and it is not right. You might feel that abortion should be outlawed but that does not justify violence because people who have an abortion or who perform abortions are doing something legal and constitutionally guaranteed.

You may not like it but the constitution and the Supreme court do not agree with your views and also do not agree with you that it is murder.

 

[Bob Blaylock]

Re: Majority Favors Limiting Abortion to first 20 Weeks - Women more in favor than Me

It is your opinion that it is murder, murder is when one human being takes the life of another human being. A ZEF is not a human being, it does not have any form of viability at the moment of abortion and the ZEF also does not have personhood.

It is nothing short of raw, evil bigotry, to deny that these most innocent and defenseless children are human beings, or that they have the same right to life as all other human beings. Yours is a sick, evil position; and there is no spin that your can put on it to hide what this tells us about your own personal character.

 

[Peter King]

Re: Majority Favors Limiting Abortion to first 20 Weeks - Women more in favor than Me

It is nothing short of raw, evil bigotry, to deny that these most innocent and defenseless children are human beings, or that they have the same right to life as all other human beings. Yours is a sick, evil position; and there is no spin that your can put on it to hide what this tells us about your own personal character.

Well. it is your opinion that they are children. They could grow into children but at the time of the abortion it is not a child, it is nothing more than a ZEF.

A ZEF does not have the same right to life because it does not have a life. It is nothing more than developing cells and there is no spin on that.

You may feel that it is a sick and evil position but it no more evil than your interference in what happens in the womb of a woman which I think is much more evil and sick. You may feel that abortion is murder but guess what, nobody is forcing you to have one. You however would love to have the power to destroy women by forcing them to have children they do not want to have. You would want the power to destroy the lives of countless actual kids that would most likely grow up in abject poverty, high risk of ending up in jail and most often abusive lives in broken homes.

There are already more than enough children in broken, poor, uneducated, violent, broken, abusive homes. And then I am not even talking of children who live in homes and foster care, being moved from family to family, home to home.

You have the freedom to hate the fact that there is abortion and it is your right to never have one. But it is also the right of women to choose to have an abortion and not be attacked by people who want to impose their morals upon a public that does not want to live according to their moral hangups. The constitution gives women the freedom to choose and to make sure that you do not get to decide what happens inside their bodies and the Supreme Court has to be thanked for saving the country from intolerant moralistic individuals that want to impose their views upon the US population.

 

[JayDubya]

Re: Majority Favors Limiting Abortion to first 20 Weeks - Women more in favor than Me

who exactly talks about murder here regularly? The anti-choice people.

I don't know who you're talking about; everyone likes the concept of freedom of choice, especially me.

Who talks about putting women in prison for having an abortion? Who talks about putting people in life for being accessories to abortion?

Anyone with a working moral compass, a sense of justice, respect for human rights and equality.

We don't want to castrate men or execute. I would think that most people who are progressive enough for supporting pro-choice are likely progressive enough to oppose the death penalty.

Well think again. Your thanker apparently thinks we should be executed for being anti-abortion.

 

[Peter King]

Re: Majority Favors Limiting Abortion to first 20 Weeks - Women more in favor than Me

I don't know who you're talking about; everyone likes the concept of freedom of choice, especially me.

No, forbidding abortion is actually not only going against the concept of freedom of choice but wants to abolish that freedom of choice.

Anyone with a working moral compass, a sense of justice, respect for human rights and equality.

No, people who do not respect freedom of choice and want everybody to goose step to their extreme views about abortion. There is no respect for human life, no sense of justice (because the law sides with the women who want the freedom to have an abortion), pro-choice supporters have just as good a moral compass (it may be the pro-lifers that have the twisted moral compasses).

Well think again. Your thanker apparently thinks we should be executed for being anti-abortion.

I do not think that and virtually every pro-choice person does not think that. Someone might have said that but I do seriously doubt he/she actually thinks that, unlike some anti-choicers/pro-lifers who have actually murdered people, bombed clinics and perpetrated acts of violence.

 

[JayDubya]

Re: Majority Favors Limiting Abortion to first 20 Weeks - Women more in favor than Me

No, forbidding abortion is actually not only going against the concept of freedom of choice but wants to abolish that freedom of choice.

Abortion has nothing to do with freedom of choice as a concept. Freedom of choice is, primarily, an economic concept.

Alluding to it when talking about whether or not hiring a killer should be legal has always been complete hogswollop.

No, people who do not respect freedom of choice and want everybody to goose step to their extreme views about abortion. There is no respect for human life, no sense of justice (because the law sides with the women who want the freedom to have an abortion), pro-choice supporters have just as good a moral compass (it may be the pro-lifers that have the twisted moral compasses).

Not really, no. To be frank, at best, when you want it to be legal to kill innocents in aggression, your moral compass is broken and you are an amoral person. Didn't say IMmoral, note, and there is a difference. The monsters enabled to kill without fear of legal recourse are immoral - you guys are just their stooges, their little helpers.

If you want it to be legal to kill innocent humans in aggression, then no, you have no sense of justice. You do not respect equality, as you want some humans to be able to hire someone to kill another human legally. You do not respect human rights, as the victim has a right to his or her life as much as you do.

I do not think that and virtually every pro-choice person does not think that.

I don't particularly care - I wasn't talking about you or to you. I was stating what others have said and "thanked."

Someone might have said that but I do seriously doubt he/she actually thinks that...

If they didn't mean it, then they were trolling. Is that supposed to be better?

 

[choiceone]

Re: Majority Favors Limiting Abortion to first 20 Weeks - Women more in favor than Me

If that's an argument for killing innocent children, then it is a very, very poor one. Abortion victims, for the most part, aren't selected for that fate based on any indication that they are likely to be disabled, or otherwise burdensome to society. They are selected because their mothers find their existence to be personally inconvenient.

If your argument had any virtue, then it would be far more ethical and rational to wait until after people are born, and have given some clear indication of what their fate is likely to be. Round up and kill those who are severely disabled, or otherwise burdensome to society, only after they prove to be so.

It isn't an argument for killing innocent children, because zygotes, embryos, and fetuses are neither innocent in the sense of being harmless nor children by my definition. The unborn are not children because women make children by growing the material for making children into children, and they do that by risking their lives and health. The fact that you do not give women credit for making them is a form of heinous disrespect. The person who is in the process of writing a book has the right to stop writing it.

 

[choiceone]

Re: Majority Favors Limiting Abortion to first 20 Weeks - Women more in favor than Me

Except you are wrong. If abortion were illegal, then women would make sure they use birth control ergo unwanted pregnancies would not be occurring nearly as much because there would be no escape hatch for them.

As long as some men are pigs, there will be women and girls who get pregnant against their will.

 

[choiceone]

Re: Majority Favors Limiting Abortion to first 20 Weeks - Women more in favor than Me

Literally everything you said here except for that last sentence is baseless.

A) The vast majority of abortions were not of those with genetic "defects". In fact with no abortion we would be more likely to have far more producers than we would have net recipients, meaning that as a proportion those who are condemned by the nature of their birth to depend on others would be less of a net drain on the system. Furthermore, your conclusion does not follow your presupposition - in a system such as the one you describe our overburdened and straining social welfare system would have already collapsed, and the ability of the government to provide a huge new entitlement such as single payer would be roughly nil.

B) Women are born more than men; nature's way of allowing for death in childbirth. Except, thanks to modern medicine, women don't die in childbirth a anything resembling the 'natural' rate - far, far, from it, in fact. This means that as the number of births would be significantly higher (carrying with it a higher number of female infants) even as the number of birth-deaths plummeted, that our ratio of women to men would, in fact, climb slightly. It is abortion which produces fewer women to men, as so many engage in sex-selective abortion, especially in cultures that more heavily value sons over daughters. Feel free to do a search for "China's Bare Branches", and you'll see the same effects in an extreme case, but only an exaggeration of our disparity, not a difference in type.

C) The "Abortion reduces crime" shibboleth became popular after the Freakonomics guys came up with it, and was then utterly destroyed by someone who actually studies the history of violence, Steve Pinker. It's Pop-Social-Science.

D) Again, see (B), we would not be facing a surplus of young men - that is the issue that is faced by countries who perform lots of abortions (such as China), not countries that do not perform abortions. That being said, killing off surpluses of young men through warfare is a tactic used by states who feature no significant political feedback mechanism with punitive power (autocracies), not representative governments.

I never said that the majority of abortions are for genetic or even morphological defects that develop during pregnancy. I said that some of the abortions women had early in pregnancy, for which they may have had and may have given other reasons, would have had such defects, so there would have been more seriously disabled and deformed infants born. I said that more women, who have already been born and are persons, would have died in late pregnancy and childbirth. I don't care that you think women should be impregnated and drop dead at a greater rate because you don't give a s*** about them as persons and would instead prefer that male fetuses with birth defects and genetic cruel streaks be brought to birth by the breeders you clearly despise. I care about the women.

We would have a surplus of young men.
1) we would have a surplus of all people and be an overpopulated country - that is the situation that leads unconsciously to warmongering and has done so for millenia - it was never a conscious tactic, but rather an evolutionary strategy.
2) More women and girls would die in childbirth. In societies seriously lacking in modern medical care for women in childbirth, the average age of death of women does not exceed about 40, the average age of female death in Japan before WWII. In some African societies, girls and women about to give birth say goodbye to their families, because so many of them do not live through it.
3) More women would leave the US and emigrate to other countries such as Sweden and Canada to the extent possible, so we would have stupider women here, and they would give birth to stupider children that inherited their stupid genes.


China has a surplus of young men relative to young women, but it also has a surplus of young people, and that will not stop until the rural stupid uneducated and socially irresponsible people are finally changed into less rural, more educated, social responsible people. It is true that those stupid rural people want sons and abort daughters - they've been doing that for well over a millenium. In our society, we don't have that problem in spite of all the attempts of right wing anti-abortion fanatics to pretend that we do. Gender is not a reason for abortion that is significantly considered by the overwhelming number of those who do have elective abortions here. We would therefore merely have overpopulation in general.

You are right that the social welfare necessary in such a system would have collapsed. The result would be a society resembling that of overpopulated Japan in the early twentieth century, which was engaging in serious imperialism for economic reasons. The overpopulated society would be a more violent one. The able would be killing off the disabled born people. There would be more and more violence against women, whom men would hold responsible for pregnancies due to rape, male irresponsibility, etc. Since we would have stupider women, perhaps this last would be for the best.

I will protect born women from men like you even beyond the end of my breathing.

 

[choiceone]

Re: Majority Favors Limiting Abortion to first 20 Weeks - Women more in favor than Me

Except you are wrong. If abortion were illegal, then women would make sure they use birth control ergo unwanted pregnancies would not be occurring nearly as much because there would be no escape hatch for them.

Educated women with money and their daughters would have Canada, Mexico, Women on Waves, the whole underground railroad to Canada and illegal abortion, which already has developed its network in anticipation of the unconscionable laws of right wing idiots, and the possibility of emigration to Sweden.

 

[wbcoleman]

Re: Majority Favors Limiting Abortion to first 20 Weeks - Women more in favor than Me

Abortion has nothing to do with freedom of choice as a concept. Freedom of choice is, primarily, an economic concept.

Alluding to it when talking about whether or not hiring a killer should be legal has always been complete hogswollop.



Not really, no. To be frank, at best, when you want it to be legal to kill innocents in aggression, your moral compass is broken and you are an amoral person. Didn't say IMmoral, note, and there is a difference. The monsters enabled to kill without fear of legal recourse are immoral - you guys are just their stooges, their little helpers.

If you want it to be legal to kill innocent humans in aggression, then no, you have no sense of justice. You do not respect equality, as you want some humans to be able to hire someone to kill another human legally. You do not respect human rights, as the victim has a right to his or her life as much as you do.



I don't particularly care - I wasn't talking about you or to you. I was stating what others have said and "thanked."



If they didn't mean it, then they were trolling. Is that supposed to be better?

You believe that the fetus is a human life. Fine. But that is a religious belief or, at least, a faith commitment. My religion specifically teaches that the soul is NOT implanted any time near conception, and while your assertions are wonderful as an expression of your deeply-held beliefs, they are not acceptable as a legislative program.

 

[choiceone]

Re: Majority Favors Limiting Abortion to first 20 Weeks - Women more in favor than Me

What do you want to bet the ideological overlap between those who are willing to hawk the "abortion reduces crime" claim and those who were up in arms over Bill Bennets "If you wanted to reduce crime you could just abort all black babies" is?

That is not true. Right now, right-wing white-dominated legislatures have been making anti-abortion laws that are themselves against the law as interpreted by the SC for 40 years. They want to break the law. They don't care if they break the law. They are the main criminals in this society, and they are the terrorists.

 

[roughdraft274]

Re: Majority Favors Limiting Abortion to first 20 Weeks - Women more in favor than Me

It is interesting to me that A) you have a significant majority in favor of that position and B) within that majority, women are more prevalent than men. I think that this informs the various debates surrounding the State level efforts to limit abortion past 20 weeks, as well as the discussion of the ridiculous charges that wishing to limit abortion somehow constitutes a "war on women" :roll:

The big discussion hasn't been that states are limiting it to 20 weeks. In texas for example that was a very minor part of the bill. The part of the bill that virtually eliminated abortion providers from actually doing their job was what the main issue was.

 

[choiceone]

Re: Majority Favors Limiting Abortion to first 20 Weeks - Women more in favor than Me

I think she's the worst. She along with the others call all the pro-lifers here women haters who want to enslave women, but if we ever talk about it, they act like they would never say anything so disrespectful and hyperbolic.

You are not someone who wants to enslave women - just to push back the time limit for abortion other than for the reasons of saving the health and life of the woman and in cases of serious fetal disability and deformity. But there are quite a few people on this forum who would fight you on the cases of serious fetal disability and deformity discovered at 20-21 weeks and would force women to give birth to babies that do not even have any brains. Had I ever been pregnant with such a monstrosity, I would rather have committed suicide in abject shame than do such a disservice to humanity and God. And those people who would force women to give birth to those babies or throw them in prison are woman haters and are the people truly disrespectful to humanity on these threads.

 

[choiceone]

Re: Majority Favors Limiting Abortion to first 20 Weeks - Women more in favor than Me

Where did I lie about what other people said?

In this thread, I noted you said we deserve execution for disagreeing with your abortion stance. It was horrible. You said that, this week. It's not something you can edit or change anymore.

So yeah, I saw this polling data and thought to myself, darn, that's a lot of women you apparently think ought to be executed for thought crime.


The only other possibility would be that you posted those inflammatory remarks in falsehood, in bad faith, but that would be you admitting to trolling. So... rock and a hard place, really.

You don't deserve execution. You are just stupid. So you deserve to get educated and reform or, on the other hand, deserve a physical war. I's volunteer to risk my life in that war just to make the expression of that stupidity stop.

 

[RabidAlpaca]

Re: Majority Favors Limiting Abortion to first 20 Weeks - Women more in favor than Me

You are not someone who wants to enslave women - just to push back the time limit for abortion other than for the reasons of saving the health and life of the woman and in cases of serious fetal disability and deformity. But there are quite a few people on this forum who would fight you on the cases of serious fetal disability and deformity discovered at 20-21 weeks and would force women to give birth to babies that do not even have any brains. Had I ever been pregnant with such a monstrosity, I would rather have committed suicide in abject shame than do such a disservice to humanity and God. And those people who would force women to give birth to those babies or throw them in prison are woman haters and are the people truly disrespectful to humanity on these threads.

Those people are a vanishingly small minority. Frankly, this is why we need direct democracy. Something that radical would not pass, because the vast majority of the public think that's barbaric.

 

[choiceone]

Re: Majority Favors Limiting Abortion to first 20 Weeks - Women more in favor than Me

It is the “pro-choice” side that openly defends and advocates murder of the very most innocent and defenseless of all human beings. Denying that what you advocate is murder does not change what it is, nor does it change what you are for supporting it.

Get it straight.

The overwhelming majority of pro-choice people, if not all of them, do not believe that zygotes, embryos, and fetuses are human beings. They define "human being" to mean a born human.

They know perfectly well that the word innocent, outside of the law, carries an implication of harmlessness, and they all know that even zygotes have the capacity to kill immune cells in a woman, that all the unborn do kill and attack and starve immune cells in a woman, and therefore that not one of them is completely harmless.

That you refuse to recognize these facts is because you don't care whether or not women or girls are harmed by pregnancy. Apparently, since they have all had sex, whether or not they were raped and whether or not the rape victims among them are 10 year old little girls, they're not worth considering equal persons any more because only girls lucky enough not to be abused by men are innocent in your book.

And the day women figure out how many of you there are, they just may be willing to do anything to avoid having sex with any man ever. Then you can produce your own offspring instead of abusing women's bodies by dirtying them with your own.

 

[Scrabaholic]

Re: Majority Favors Limiting Abortion to first 20 Weeks - Women more in favor than Me

there is some truth to this

Please stop lying about me.