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Majority Favors Limiting Abortion to first 20 Weeks - Women more than Men[W:86]

Re: Majority Favors Limiting Abortion to first 20 Weeks - Women more in favor than Me

This is a decision to be made between a woman and her doctor; no more and no less.

Doctors don't kill for money, and we don't care about the privacy of any other contract killing.
 
Re: Majority Favors Limiting Abortion to first 20 Weeks - Women more in favor than Me

Yup. A significant portion of my generation was wiped out before we even had a chance to breathe (or, in some instances, immediately thereafter).

I would seriously be interested in what the unemployment rates would be if they were all still here.
 
Re: Majority Favors Limiting Abortion to first 20 Weeks - Women more in favor than Me

:shrug: 0>1

I don't know how to say it without it being more obvious, but that is empirically incorrect.
 
Re: Majority Favors Limiting Abortion to first 20 Weeks - Women more in favor than Me

I would seriously be interested in what the unemployment rates would be if they were all still here.

:shrug: Malthus has been proven wrong time and again, so the argument that it would necessarily be higher by that number is ridiculous. Since (most) people are net-productive, perhaps lower; but you couldn't build a solid case for that other than it-makes-sense.
 
Re: Majority Favors Limiting Abortion to first 20 Weeks - Women more in favor than Me

:shrug: Malthus has been proven wrong time and again, so the argument that it would necessarily be higher by that number is ridiculous. Since (most) people are net-productive, perhaps lower; but you couldn't build a solid case for that other than it-makes-sense.

If no abortions had occurred since 1973 -

The population of the US would include a much higher proportion of seriously disabled people, including seriously mentally disabled people. There would have been a need for much greater public welfare, both for all the children born with serious birth defects and all the women permanently disabled in late pregnancy and childbirth. Hence, we would probably have a social democracy now, with nationalized health care, so you can forget conservative economic values.

There would be a lower proportion of women, because more women would have died in late pregnancy or childbirth. The number that would have died would not just be equal to those who had abortions in late pregnancy to save their lives, because some of the women who have had abortions in early pregnancy for other reasons would have had dangerous late pregnancies had they continued them. And of course, others would have been permanently disabled by late pregnancy/childbirth.


The crime rate would probably have vastly increased because US culture has no long history of adapting to domestic overpopulation and poverty without the capacity to migrate to less populated places.

Our government would surely have pursued a policy of continuous war with a revival of the draft to kill off young men, as that has been a standard human means of reducing the population of a society to reduce poverty throughout history.

Winter is Coming is a perfect motto for you.
 
Re: Majority Favors Limiting Abortion to first 20 Weeks - Women more in favor than Me

So, then, abortion is a social virtue.
 
Re: Majority Favors Limiting Abortion to first 20 Weeks - Women more in favor than Me

If no abortions had occurred since 1973 -

The population of the US would include a much higher proportion of seriously disabled people, including seriously mentally disabled people. There would have been a need for much greater public welfare, both for all the children born with serious birth defects and all the women permanently disabled in late pregnancy and childbirth. Hence, we would probably have a social democracy now, with nationalized health care, so you can forget conservative economic values.

There would be a lower proportion of women, because more women would have died in late pregnancy or childbirth. The number that would have died would not just be equal to those who had abortions in late pregnancy to save their lives, because some of the women who have had abortions in early pregnancy for other reasons would have had dangerous late pregnancies had they continued them. And of course, others would have been permanently disabled by late pregnancy/childbirth.


The crime rate would probably have vastly increased because US culture has no long history of adapting to domestic overpopulation and poverty without the capacity to migrate to less populated places.

Our government would surely have pursued a policy of continuous war with a revival of the draft to kill off young men, as that has been a standard human means of reducing the population of a society to reduce poverty throughout history.

Winter is Coming is a perfect motto for you.

"You know nothing, Jon Snow!"

No, really: That was excellent. Thank you.
 
Re: Majority Favors Limiting Abortion to first 20 Weeks - Women more in favor than Me

New Quinnipiac Poll



Now that's interesting.

When a woman discovers she is pregnant, it doesn't take long to figure out whether she wants to continue the pregnancy or not - which is one reason why most abortions are in the first trimester.

I know very few women who would consider an abortion after the first four months ( or even after the first 10 - 12 weeks), regardless of whether it is legal or not unless there was a serious health problem identified.
 
Re: Majority Favors Limiting Abortion to first 20 Weeks - Women more in favor than Me

So, then, abortion is a social virtue.

Don't you just love how they spin everything?
 
Re: Majority Favors Limiting Abortion to first 20 Weeks - Women more in favor than Me

When a woman discovers she is pregnant, it doesn't take long to figure out whether she wants to continue the pregnancy or not - which is one reason why most abortions are in the first trimester.

I know very few women who would consider an abortion after the first four months ( or even after the first 10 - 12 weeks), regardless of whether it is legal or not unless there was a serious health problem identified.

They have early abortions ...the sooner the better ...unless there was a serious Health problem identified.
I agree completely
 
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Re: Majority Favors Limiting Abortion to first 20 Weeks - Women more in favor than Me

If no abortions had occurred since 1973 -

The population of the US would include a much higher proportion of seriously disabled people, including seriously mentally disabled people. There would have been a need for much greater public welfare, both for all the children born with serious birth defects and all the women permanently disabled in late pregnancy and childbirth. Hence, we would probably have a social democracy now, with nationalized health care, so you can forget conservative economic values.

If that's an argument for killing innocent children, then it is a very, very poor one. Abortion victims, for the most part, aren't selected for that fate based on any indication that they are likely to be disabled, or otherwise burdensome to society. They are selected because their mothers find their existence to be personally inconvenient.

If your argument had any virtue, then it would be far more ethical and rational to wait until after people are born, and have given some clear indication of what their fate is likely to be. Round up and kill those who are severely disabled, or otherwise burdensome to society, only after they prove to be so.
 
Re: Majority Favors Limiting Abortion to first 20 Weeks - Women more in favor than Me

We do not know how many abortions are performed because of genetic/fetal abnlrmalities.

No one tracks the number of abortions performed for medical reasons, but obstetricians say several factors are most likely contributing to a growth in their frequency, including broader availability of new screening technologies and more pregnancies among women over 35, who are at greater risk of carrying a fetus with chromosomal abnormalities.

About a dozen tests for genetic mutations that could cause diseases or disabilities in a child are now regularly offered to pregnant women and their partners, depending on their ethnicity and conditions that run in their families.

More than 450 conditions, including deafness, dwarfism and skin disease, can be diagnosed by testing fetal cells, with more than 100 tests added in the last year alone. African-Americans are widely screened for sickle-cell anemia, and a panel that now includes nine tests for diseases common to Ashkenazi Jews has virtually eliminated the birth of children in the United States with Tay-Sachs, a fatal early childhood genetic disorder.

Next month, the Baylor College of Medicine plans to introduce a pilot program with perhaps the largest panel of prenatal tests ever offered. For $2,000, a pregnant woman will be able to have her fetus tested for some 50 conditions that cause mental retardation.

Quest Diagnostics, a leading provider of medical tests, said prenatal and genetic mutation tests were one of the fastest-growing parts of its business.

''People are going to the doctor and saying, 'I don't want to have a handicapped child, what can you do for me?''' said Charles Strom, medical director of Quest's genetic testing center.

read more:

BURDEN OF KNOWLEDGE: Tracking Prenatal Health; In New Tests for Fetal Defects, Agonizing Choices for Parents - New York Times
 
Re: Majority Favors Limiting Abortion to first 20 Weeks - Women more in favor than Me

It just goes to show how ridiculous the rhetoric is from these people. They act like anybody who wants to limit abortion in any way whatsoever is a minority and a terribly ill willed megalomaniac who wants to enslave womankind.

I see both you and JD are lying about what people say or don't say.
 
Re: Majority Favors Limiting Abortion to first 20 Weeks - Women more in favor than Me

I see both you and JD are lying about what people say or don't say.

I'm so tired of the accusations of lying in this forum. Adds nothing but flames to the discourse.
 
Re: Majority Favors Limiting Abortion to first 20 Weeks - Women more in favor than Me

If no abortions had occurred since 1973 -

The population of the US would include a much higher proportion of seriously disabled people, including seriously mentally disabled people. There would have been a need for much greater public welfare, both for all the children born with serious birth defects and all the women permanently disabled in late pregnancy and childbirth. Hence, we would probably have a social democracy now, with nationalized health care, so you can forget conservative economic values.

There would be a lower proportion of women, because more women would have died in late pregnancy or childbirth. The number that would have died would not just be equal to those who had abortions in late pregnancy to save their lives, because some of the women who have had abortions in early pregnancy for other reasons would have had dangerous late pregnancies had they continued them. And of course, others would have been permanently disabled by late pregnancy/childbirth.


The crime rate would probably have vastly increased because US culture has no long history of adapting to domestic overpopulation and poverty without the capacity to migrate to less populated places.

Our government would surely have pursued a policy of continuous war with a revival of the draft to kill off young men, as that has been a standard human means of reducing the population of a society to reduce poverty throughout history.

Winter is Coming is a perfect motto for you.

Except you are wrong. If abortion were illegal, then women would make sure they use birth control ergo unwanted pregnancies would not be occurring nearly as much because there would be no escape hatch for them.
 
Re: Majority Favors Limiting Abortion to first 20 Weeks - Women more in favor than Me

If no abortions had occurred since 1973 -

The population of the US would include a much higher proportion of seriously disabled people, including seriously mentally disabled people. There would have been a need for much greater public welfare, both for all the children born with serious birth defects and all the women permanently disabled in late pregnancy and childbirth. Hence, we would probably have a social democracy now, with nationalized health care, so you can forget conservative economic values.

There would be a lower proportion of women, because more women would have died in late pregnancy or childbirth. The number that would have died would not just be equal to those who had abortions in late pregnancy to save their lives, because some of the women who have had abortions in early pregnancy for other reasons would have had dangerous late pregnancies had they continued them. And of course, others would have been permanently disabled by late pregnancy/childbirth.

The crime rate would probably have vastly increased because US culture has no long history of adapting to domestic overpopulation and poverty without the capacity to migrate to less populated places.

Our government would surely have pursued a policy of continuous war with a revival of the draft to kill off young men, as that has been a standard human means of reducing the population of a society to reduce poverty throughout history.

Winter is Coming is a perfect motto for you.

Literally everything you said here except for that last sentence is baseless.

A) The vast majority of abortions were not of those with genetic "defects". In fact with no abortion we would be more likely to have far more producers than we would have net recipients, meaning that as a proportion those who are condemned by the nature of their birth to depend on others would be less of a net drain on the system. Furthermore, your conclusion does not follow your presupposition - in a system such as the one you describe our overburdened and straining social welfare system would have already collapsed, and the ability of the government to provide a huge new entitlement such as single payer would be roughly nil.

B) Women are born more than men; nature's way of allowing for death in childbirth. Except, thanks to modern medicine, women don't die in childbirth a anything resembling the 'natural' rate - far, far, from it, in fact. This means that as the number of births would be significantly higher (carrying with it a higher number of female infants) even as the number of birth-deaths plummeted, that our ratio of women to men would, in fact, climb slightly. It is abortion which produces fewer women to men, as so many engage in sex-selective abortion, especially in cultures that more heavily value sons over daughters. Feel free to do a search for "China's Bare Branches", and you'll see the same effects in an extreme case, but only an exaggeration of our disparity, not a difference in type.

C) The "Abortion reduces crime" shibboleth became popular after the Freakonomics guys came up with it, and was then utterly destroyed by someone who actually studies the history of violence, Steve Pinker. It's Pop-Social-Science.

D) Again, see (B), we would not be facing a surplus of young men - that is the issue that is faced by countries who perform lots of abortions (such as China), not countries that do not perform abortions. That being said, killing off surpluses of young men through warfare is a tactic used by states who feature no significant political feedback mechanism with punitive power (autocracies), not representative governments.
 
Re: Majority Favors Limiting Abortion to first 20 Weeks - Women more in favor than Me

Well, that's how it was before Roe v. Wade. But societal restraints generally no longer exist that were in place back then.
 
Re: Majority Favors Limiting Abortion to first 20 Weeks - Women more in favor than Me

The "Abortion reduces crime" shibboleth became popular after the Freakonomics guys came up with it, and was then utterly destroyed by someone who actually studies the history of violence, Steve Pinker. It's Pop-Social-Science.

Beside that, the ethical error ought to be obvious here. If we can reliably identify some category of persons who are disproportionately likely to commit crimes, and if we kill people in that category before they have a chance to commit crimes, then it can indeed be argued that doing so would “reduce crime”; but to do so, you have to ignore the criminality that is inherent in killing these people in the first place. In any ethical sense, the killing of these people would amount to far greater crime than is prevented by killing them; unless it can be proven that on average, each of those so targeted would have committed crimes equal to at least one first-degree murder.
 
Re: Majority Favors Limiting Abortion to first 20 Weeks - Women more in favor than Me

Beside that, the ethical error ought to be obvious here. If we can reliably identify some category of persons who are disproportionately likely to commit crimes, and if we kill people in that category before they have a chance to commit crimes, then it can indeed be argued that doing so would “reduce crime”; but to do so, you have to ignore the criminality that is inherent in killing these people in the first place. In any ethical sense, the killing of these people would amount to far greater crime than is prevented by killing them; unless it can be proven that on average, each of those so targeted would have committed crimes equal to at least one first-degree murder.

What do you want to bet the ideological overlap between those who are willing to hawk the "abortion reduces crime" claim and those who were up in arms over Bill Bennets "If you wanted to reduce crime you could just abort all black babies" is?
 
Re: Majority Favors Limiting Abortion to first 20 Weeks - Women more in favor than Me

It just goes to show how ridiculous the rhetoric is from these people. They act like anybody who wants to limit abortion in any way whatsoever is a minority and a terribly ill willed megalomaniac who wants to enslave womankind.

I do not have an issue with limiting the weeks in which abortion can be performed. As long as it is safe, it does not interfere with the legal right of women to have an abortion and there are no roadblocks to make it very difficult for women to have an abortion, then I have no problem with bringing down the limit for purely elective abortions to be brought back to 20 weeks or even 18/16 weeks. Later abortions due to severe, crippling and deadly handicaps of the fetus and to save the life of the mother must still be allowed after that date though.
 
Re: Majority Favors Limiting Abortion to first 20 Weeks - Women more in favor than Me

I'm so tired of the accusations of lying in this forum. Adds nothing but flames to the discourse.

I think she's the worst. She along with the others call all the pro-lifers here women haters who want to enslave women, but if we ever talk about it, they act like they would never say anything so disrespectful and hyperbolic.
 
Re: Majority Favors Limiting Abortion to first 20 Weeks - Women more in favor than Me

I see both you and JD are lying about what people say or don't say.

Where did I lie about what other people said?

In this thread, I noted you said we deserve execution for disagreeing with your abortion stance. It was horrible. You said that, this week. It's not something you can edit or change anymore.

So yeah, I saw this polling data and thought to myself, darn, that's a lot of women you apparently think ought to be executed for thought crime.


The only other possibility would be that you posted those inflammatory remarks in falsehood, in bad faith, but that would be you admitting to trolling. So... rock and a hard place, really.
 
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