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Maddow Fires Back At O'Reily

well if it won't help one school my god, it will never work for the millions of other schools. :doh:






Cool, then lets just keep folks in bad schools in bad schools then..... great idea. :doh:

No, the one school is just an example to punctuate the point. To various degrees, private schools lose the advantage to being private the more of the general population tey let in.

But, how about we fix bad schools? There are moe than two options you know. ;)
 
No, the one school is just an example to punctuate the point. To various degrees, private schools lose the advantage to being private the more of the general population tey let in.


Any proof or evidence for this or is this once again your "feelings" masquerading as fact?



But, how about we fix bad schools? There are moe than two options you know. ;)



You fix the parents, disband the teachers union, for starters. Offer vouchers so they compete for students.
 
Any proof or evidence for this or is this once again your "feelings" masquerading as fact?

I think it is common logic. People paying good money tend to be vocal. When the general population comes in, so do the problems they bring. Paying custmoers will complain, and not allow the advantage to be lost. I don't think that is very disputable.

Not only that, but many will never even apply for vouchers, leaving the most needy behind. With less funds and ability to help. Again, this is logical.

But I suspose I could find someone else to say it if that impresses you more.





You fix the parents, disband the teachers union, for starters. Offer vouchers so they compete for students.

remember, private schools don't have to meet standards public schools do. Competition will lead to new schools, done on the cheap. Diplomas and not standards are likelt to be the result, Rent to Own education. Only engaged parents guard aganst these things, meaning many won't.

Yes, parents are a problem. Maybe unions as well, though I can't speak to them. Most the complaints I've seen are less than convincing. But poverty, health, environemtn, and many other factors effect education of children. Many are hard to control. And sometimes it is like bailing out the Titanic with a tea cup. But, we can save a limited few, of seek to give a larger number a chance.

I vote to try and save a larger number.
 
I think it is common logic. People paying good money tend to be vocal. When the general population comes in, so do the problems they bring. Paying custmoers will complain, and not allow the advantage to be lost. I don't think that is very disputable.


So the answer is no., no proof, just "boo's opinion is fact" illogic we have come to know and love.



Not only that, but many will never even apply for vouchers, leaving the most needy behind. With less funds and ability to help. Again, this is logical.


Speculation and who's fault is that?


But I suspose I could find someone else to say it if that impresses you more.


You mean like actually back up your bloviating? Please by all means... impress me. the Good Reverend is waiting to be suprised "impressed"


remember, private schools don't have to meet standards public schools do. Competition will lead to new schools, done on the cheap. Diplomas and not standards are likelt to be the result, Rent to Own education. Only engaged parents guard aganst these things, meaning many won't.


They'll beat the kids, steal from their parents. child labor camps!!!!! oh the horror.... private enterprize iz teh evil!!!!!!! :roll:




Yes, parents are a problem. Maybe unions as well, though I can't speak to them. Most the complaints I've seen are less than convincing. But poverty, health, environemtn, and many other factors effect education of children. Many are hard to control. And sometimes it is like bailing out the Titanic with a tea cup. But, we can save a limited few, of seek to give a larger number a chance.

I vote to try and save a larger number.


so crappy teachers kept in place because of Unions, less convincing? :lol:
 
You know, I will say this. I think Boo's assumption that his ideals are right simply because it's common knowledge speaks about how a lot of the left feel these days. It's basically, "I'm right because I'm me."

That doesn't work, boo. If you say something you better back it up with facts. Republicans on this board seem to always fall back on facts with their basis. Now their sources are commonly thrown out by the left (the lefts tactic of avoidance of a subject) but the fact is facts are more commonly thrown out by the right here than by the left. The left says "it's common knowledge" the right says "go to bls.gov". Which sounds more credible to you?

This is the problem in our country today. People think their ideas are right simply because they are their ideas and come hell or high water they won't be convinced they are wrong. This country is in debt up to its eyeballs, with no end in sight, with a president who spent more in 18 months than Bush spent in 8 years, and people are still defending Obama's spending plans, and worse, attacking Bush's spending. Since when does spending get you out of debt? WHEN HAS IT EVER GOTTEN YOU OUT OF DEBT TO SPEND?
 
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That doesn't work, boo. If you say something you better back it up with facts. Republicans on this board seem to always fall back on facts with their basis.

Okay, I'll bite.

Now their sources are commonly thrown out by the left (the lefts tactic of avoidance of a subject) but the fact is facts are more commonly thrown out by the right here than by the left. The left says "it's common knowledge" the right says "go to bls.gov". Which sounds more credible to you?

Prove to me that, as you have so boldly stated--that "facts are more commonly thrown out by the right here than by the left." Since Republicans always back-up their facts (according to you) I expect some non-partisan links that I can peruse.

Thanks!
 
That's quite a head start for whites.

See, here's something I have to take issue with...

I hear this whole "whites had a headstart" argument all the time and I just don't get it. Is there a finish line we're going for? Did the race just start in the past 250 years? Because by my counting, Africans had the head start way before whites did. And if we're talking in terms of steady progress, Asians have done remarkably better than whites in many arenas.

Why should other races come to a stop if one happens to be falling behind?
 
Government makes laws that say you can't discriminate based on race, gnender or religion. Government seeks equality in this way. They also look at the head start whites had on blacks and seek to help them catch up. Nothing unreasonable about this.

That's called "reparations" and the only way that can be done, is by discriminating against white people who had nothing to do with discriminating against black people in the first place.

The second class status given to black people in our past is the single greatest flaw, mistake, tragedy, (or whatever else you want to call it) in the history of this great nation. But my grandfather always told me that "two wrongs, don't make a right", and that's precisely what your doing when you try and fix past discrimination against one group, by discriminating against another.

And it moves us toward equality.

I disagree. Every bit of equality that can ever be achieved through the government, has already been achieved. They created a level playing field for people of all races through legislation, and that's the extent of their capabilities. The fact is, equal opportunity exists in America today not because it's being forced upon us through some government mandate... It exists today because it's become woven into the fabric of American society. It's now up to each individual to work hard and take advantage of that equality, because that's something the government can't provide. It's called "the American dream."

Taking money from people who earned it, and giving it to people who haven't, doesn't create equality. It won't make the poor wealthy, or make under achievers successful. What it does for the recipients, is take away, or greatly diminish their incentive to work hard and strive for success. What it does to the people it's taken from, is reduce the amount of money they can contribute to strengthening the American economy (such as jobs, investments and major purchases).

You see my friend, nothing motivates a person like desperation. We have an instinct that kicks in when our survival is threatened and it not only motivates us to do whatever it takes to get out of the situation we're in, but it also serves as a constant reminder of the consequences of complacency and irresponsibility. How can you expect a person to work hard, make sacrifices and strive to become a successful and independent person, when the government offers them food, shelter and a few bucks in their pocket to do something much easier.... nothing? If people are given a choice, they will always take the easy way out.

Economic or social equality are governed by human nature, and no matter how hard the government tries, that is something they will never be able to change or control.
 
Okay, I'll bite.



Prove to me that, as you have so boldly stated--that "facts are more commonly thrown out by the right here than by the left." Since Republicans always back-up their facts (according to you) I expect some non-partisan links that I can peruse.

Thanks!

Um, what part of "opinion" do you not understand? It's my opinion and I'm entitled to it. You don't like my opinion? Guess what? My give a damn's broken. I don't have to find you a link for ****.
 
Rachael Madcow vs. Bill O'Racist? Damn, let me get some popcorn and a beer. I gotta see this one. :mrgreen:
 
Um, what part of "opinion" do you not understand? It's my opinion and I'm entitled to it. You don't like my opinion? Guess what? My give a damn's broken. I don't have to find you a link for ****.

You are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own reality. Your claim for fact based posting is directly contradicted by your egregious lack of a factual base.
 
You are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own reality. Your claim for fact based posting is directly contradicted by your egregious lack of a factual base.

Bingo!... we have a winner here. There's no way you can be an intelligent liberal for getting this. :2razz:
 
as if your inability to discern is our fault
man up



Seriously who? Surely you don't mean o'reilly?

anti-2nd amendment.
pro-bailouts
anti-death penalty


among other non conservative views.



so, yes, one of us needs to man up bubba, and apparently it's not me. :shrug:
 
See, here's something I have to take issue with...

I hear this whole "whites had a headstart" argument all the time and I just don't get it. Is there a finish line we're going for? Did the race just start in the past 250 years? Because by my counting, Africans had the head start way before whites did. And if we're talking in terms of steady progress, Asians have done remarkably better than whites in many arenas.

Why should other races come to a stop if one happens to be falling behind?

Often where you end depends largely one where you start. So, when a race starts out with most of the wealth and property, allowing for all the advantages these things entail, and another group starts out with no wealth, property or adequate education, they are behind. When your tradition and histroy is more educated, more privledged, the odds are in your favor that you will continue that legacy. After all, you have the example to follow, the family to push you, and the resources to do what is needed.


If however, your family was not educated, has no legacy of success, no proven family support, fewer resources, you start out behind. Odds favor those advantaged both in the short run and the long run.

This is a head start.

And it is easy for those with the advantages to not see them as advantages. That's why the saying I grew on was such a good, "walk a mile in someone's shoes . . . ".
 
What are the "flat out made up scare stories" she says Fox reports on?

And Bill O'Reilly is right. African Americans have overwhelmingly voted Democrat for a very long time. Democrats generally are for social justice and redistribution of wealth. What did he say that was incorrect?

dems are for social justice.....true. redistribution of wealth? not so much.
 
So the answer is no., no proof, just "boo's opinion is fact" illogic we have come to know and love.






Speculation and who's fault is that?


You mean like actually back up your bloviating? Please by all means... impress me. the Good Reverend is waiting to be suprised "impressed"





They'll beat the kids, steal from their parents. child labor camps!!!!! oh the horror.... private enterprize iz teh evil!!!!!!! :roll:







so crappy teachers kept in place because of Unions, less convincing? :lol:

Arguments are always based on opinion. And what we seek is support. Now, we can quote experts, and I can do that. But we can also build a logical case, and experts only lend to it.

Now, fault? Parents mostly. Care to argue all parents are good, attentive and enggaed?

Support:

All of these arguments presuppose one thing: that the schools are the problem. Look at some of the best private schools. Why do they work? One big factor is that they can say 'NO!' They can set rules, require students to follow rules, and expel students who don't follow those rules. Is there parental support? I know of an example of a child who would be considered just rambunctious in public schools. He probably would not get much more than a trip to the principal's office. However, when a private school threatened to kick the child out, his parents were not willing to suffer that embarrassment! They had accepted the rules of the school. They realized the consequences, and they acted on them. What are the consequences in public schools? Hardly any.

Vouchers - Do Vouchers Betray Public Education

Vouchers

Are Vouchers the Solution for Our Failing Public Schools? by Rep. Ron Paul

These are just the first three of a search. There are more. But the fact is we can argue using logic. Many predispose that competition always improves quality. This is what the indivivual craftsman, who produces much better quality is doing better today than the mass produced product. This is why no one buys discount items and never puts cost over quality. Truth is competition also looks for ways to sale an inferior product to a less wealthy customer. And how to cut corners, even if it means less quality. We also see that many times the less quality wins the battle. So, it is not illogical to forsee an educational competition that becomes getting a diploma without the needed education as the criteria. Remember, private schools are not as regulated.

Nor is it illogical to forsee that private schools do better because of the ability to pick thier student population. And that they too would be concerned about what taking the general population would do to their ability to achieve. If they are not hurting for bodies, they don't need the general population.

Nor is it illogical to forsee that those most needing help will have less resources,less help, and will be for all intents and purposes left behind.


Now, as for the union. Admittedly, I know very little about the teachers union, but I suspect they are a union. This means they negotiate contracts which includes a procedure for firing. I see no problem with this. Nor do I believe the problem you note is that large a problem. More problematic is the inability to attract good teachers to problem areas. Too often a school has to take what they can get. And teachers place lack of respect as a top reason for leaving the profession, even over pay. Too many work too hard to demonize teachers and theunion and work too little to consider more serious problems IMHO.
 
Often where you end depends largely one where you start. So, when a race starts out with most of the wealth and property, allowing for all the advantages these things entail, and another group starts out with no wealth, property or adequate education, they are behind. When your tradition and histroy is more educated, more privledged, the odds are in your favor that you will continue that legacy. After all, you have the example to follow, the family to push you, and the resources to do what is needed.


If however, your family was not educated, has no legacy of success, no proven family support, fewer resources, you start out behind. Odds favor those advantaged both in the short run and the long run.

This is a head start.

And it is easy for those with the advantages to not see them as advantages. That's why the saying I grew on was such a good, "walk a mile in someone's shoes . . . ".

I think it's a bunch namby pamby bull****, myself. I have known, in my life, highly disadvantaged whites who became great people. I've known blacks who did the same. Frankly, it's the individual who is responsible for his own success or failure.

I also see zero need to acknowledge this whole weepy, "woe is them", disadvantaged race bull****. In America, no one is truly disadvantaged unless they choose to be so.
 
I think it's a bunch namby pamby bull****, myself. I have known, in my life, highly disadvantaged whites who became great people. I've known blacks who did the same. Frankly, it's the individual who is responsible for his own success or failure.

I also see zero need to acknowledge this whole weepy, "woe is them", disadvantaged race bull****. In America, no one is truly disadvantaged unless they choose to be so.

Of course. There is always an acception. And the more priviledged class always sees those not so priviledged as whinny. But when we talk about the whole, odds are those most advantaged will do better. This really can't be disputed.
 
I think it's a bunch namby pamby bull****, myself. I have known, in my life, highly disadvantaged whites who became great people. I've known blacks who did the same. Frankly, it's the individual who is responsible for his own success or failure.

I also see zero need to acknowledge this whole weepy, "woe is them", disadvantaged race bull****. In America, no one is truly disadvantaged unless they choose to be so.



In horse racing, a longshot wins from time-to-time. But they still started out with 50-1 odds.
 
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