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Love & Cheating

Orion

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I apologize, I didn't watch the film as I don't have time. I just wanted to comment on love and cheating, because it happened to me recently. There is a real lack of honour among a lot of young people in my age group. I don't know how cheating works among older people (35+) but it seems like among the younger generation, everyone is constantly looking for the better deal. It's to the point that it's not even a secret.

I don't think that traditional ideals of relationships are necessarily realistic or effective anymore. Our modern world has become more complex then that. Traditional roles work for some people, but on the whole I think they are overly simplified ways of looking at human bonding. We don't all fit into neat, tidy compartments with assigned duties. Also, the notion of relationships happening in stages or according to a certain time table is rather bizarre to me. (i.e. on the first date you do this, the second you do this; you must wait exactly 6 months to be intimate; once you are together for 2 years, consider marriage, etc.)

On the other hand, completely abandoning notions of monogamy or discarding other human beings who have formed emotional bonds with you is also careless. It sort of reminds me of consumerism... looking for the best product, the best deal, and casually disregarding what you already have in order to get to the 'next level'. I keep coming back to the word "honour"... honouring the other person, yourself, your feelings, and what it is you need, and being UP FRONT about that; and also, doing the honourable thing in morally questionable situations.
 
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Jetboogieman

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I apologize, I didn't watch the film as I don't have time. I just wanted to comment on love and cheating, because it happened to me recently. There is a real lack of honour among a lot of young people in my age group. I don't know how cheating works among older people (35+) but it seems like among the younger generation, everyone is constantly looking for the better deal. It's to the point that it's not even a secret.

I don't think that traditional ideals of relationships are necessarily realistic or effective anymore. Our modern world has become more complex then that. Traditional roles work for some people, but on the whole I think they are overly simplified ways of looking at human bonding. We don't all fit into neat, tidy compartments with assigned duties. Also, the notion of relationships happening in stages or according to a certain time table is rather bizarre to me. (i.e. on the first date you do this, the second you do this; you must wait exactly 6 months to be intimate; once you are together for 2 years, consider marriage, etc.)

On the other hand, completely abandoning notions of monogamy or discarding other human beings who have formed emotional bonds with you is also careless. It sort of reminds me of consumerism... looking for the best product, the best deal, and casually disregarding what you already have in order to get to the 'next level'. I keep coming back to the word "honour"... honouring the other person, yourself, your feelings, and what it is you need, and being UP FRONT about that; and also, doing the honourable thing in morally questionable situations.

****in eh.
 

tacomancer

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I don't have time to watch, either, but I wanted to comment.

Love is not how you feel about another person. Love is how you treat another person. Cheating on somebody, having relations with someone else without permission, is not loving them.

Its both. Its the thrill of seeing that person, even if you are simply coming home from work and its the commitment to see it through when something crappy is going on. Its pretty hard to have one without the other.
 

Hoplite

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There is a real lack of honour among a lot of young people in my age group. I don't know how cheating works among older people (35+) but it seems like among the younger generation, everyone is constantly looking for the better deal. It's to the point that it's not even a secret.
I disagree. I think it's more that the younger generation isnt buying into the ideal that we once had in our society of a monogamous heterosexual relationship being THE best way to make yourself happy. Through the wide proliferation of information that we currently have and the exposure to other ways of thought, the younger generation has decided on a more self-fulfilling endgame goal rather than what tradition tells us we should go for.

We are starting to discover that, no, what we believed for so long to be the ideal really doesnt work for everyone and we're still trying to work out for ourselves all the different ways to engage in a relationship that makes us happy.

I don't think that traditional ideals of relationships are necessarily realistic or effective anymore. Our modern world has become more complex then that. Traditional roles work for some people, but on the whole I think they are overly simplified ways of looking at human bonding. We don't all fit into neat, tidy compartments with assigned duties. Also, the notion of relationships happening in stages or according to a certain time table is rather bizarre to me. (i.e. on the first date you do this, the second you do this; you must wait exactly 6 months to be intimate; once you are together for 2 years, consider marriage, etc.)
On this, I agree completely. That I think is where a lot of problems are coming from because we're still sort of daydreaming about the traditional relationship but we're faced with the reality that that kind of set-up doesnt always work.

On the other hand, completely abandoning notions of monogamy or discarding other human beings who have formed emotional bonds with you is also careless. It sort of reminds me of consumerism... looking for the best product, the best deal, and casually disregarding what you already have in order to get to the 'next level'. I keep coming back to the word "honour"... honouring the other person, yourself, your feelings, and what it is you need, and being UP FRONT about that; and also, doing the honourable thing in morally questionable situations.
I think that may be the case with some people, but I think we need to be careful to not try to tar people who may not even really know what they want. They get into bad relationships because they have no idea what will really make them happy and they keep landing in bad situations. I dont think we should lump people who are making mistakes because they dont know where to go in with people who are deliberately callous or jerks in a relationship.
 

Orion

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I disagree. I think it's more that the younger generation isnt buying into the ideal that we once had in our society of a monogamous heterosexual relationship being THE best way to make yourself happy. Through the wide proliferation of information that we currently have and the exposure to other ways of thought, the younger generation has decided on a more self-fulfilling endgame goal rather than what tradition tells us we should go for.

We are starting to discover that, no, what we believed for so long to be the ideal really doesnt work for everyone and we're still trying to work out for ourselves all the different ways to engage in a relationship that makes us happy.

As I already said, I don't think the traditional model is effective for most people anymore. Almost all things to do with traditional marriage were about carving out a livelihood and forming stability within the short life you had for practical survival. Right now, more people than ever before have their basic needs addressed and so they have the luxury to ignore older models. That said, just because we have the luxury of trying to explore and experiment with different kinds of relationships does not mean the way that people are going about it is healthy. The mentality of instant gratification is epidemic in today's world.

I disagree with what you say about monogamy. Monogamy, in some form, is a more stable situation, even if it's monogamy that has open aspects to the relationship. Even if you both go through phases where there is intimacy with others (something that I am personally not in favour of, but I could understand), having that one person remain consistent is important to a healthy dynamic. I don't see how it's beneficial to whore around your entire life, not forming attachments with anyone. I seriously question the emotional stability of those people. With yonger people I think it's more about Maslow's hierarchy of needs... they realize they can have sex with many different people and it's enjoyable for a time until their emotional needs are unmet... then they seek something more.

The whole counter-culture to monogamy that is happening is just as bad as the pro-traditional culture. The two are completely out of balance with human needs. One is an extreme and one is a rebellion in response to an extreme.

On this, I agree completely. That I think is where a lot of problems are coming from because we're still sort of daydreaming about the traditional relationship but we're faced with the reality that that kind of set-up doesnt always work.

At this point we should probably clarify what we mean when we say "traditional relationship". I am mostly referring to courtship, dating, specific notions of timelines and expectations, love, and then marriage. My approach to relationships is to let them unfold organically without applying idealisms to them, because trying to do that only confuses the other person. Your ideal may be different than theirs. It is better to have no ideal and just let your relationship evolve into its own unique thing, and assess needs and ideas along the way. My beef is that people don't seem to give that enough time to happen... they are already off chasing the next shiny object because it looks prettier to them, or there are more immediate benefits. It's instant gratification culture at its worst.

I think that may be the case with some people, but I think we need to be careful to not try to tar people who may not even really know what they want. They get into bad relationships because they have no idea what will really make them happy and they keep landing in bad situations. I dont think we should lump people who are making mistakes because they dont know where to go in with people who are deliberately callous or jerks in a relationship.

I am not trying to say that one type of relationship is best for everyone. My problem is that many people are afraid to give any kind of investment beyond momentary notions, and they expect other people to just deal with it when the moment passes. How can love between two people possibly develop in the face of that kind of aloofness? I don't think it's healthy.
 
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Catz Part Deux

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I disagree. I think it's more that the younger generation isnt buying into the ideal that we once had in our society of a monogamous heterosexual relationship being THE best way to make yourself happy.

Clue bat to the head of the younger (clearly incredibly self-involved) generation: It isn't just about you.

Jesus Christ.

Monogamy isn't just about the two people in the marriage. It's about the little people who are dependent on both of those people to be stable, consistent, and PRESENT. It's about the fabric of the entire community. Monogamy, to date, provides the most stable and supportive environment for raising children. Infidelity destroys people....and it's not just the sex...it's the lying, hiding, skulking, and scumbaggery that comes along with those people who are so entitled that they believe that anything is acceptable as long as they are sexually gratified.

I ****ing hate cheaters.
 
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Paschendale

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Life is too short not to do what makes you happy. But at the same time, you shouldn't ruin another person's chance for happiness. If you don't want to be monogamous, you don't have an obligation to be. But you do have one to be honest with a partner who is expecting if of you. Do what you want, but don't be a douche.
 

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Clue bat to the head of the younger (clearly incredibly self-involved) generation: It isn't just about you.
If YOU aren't happy in a relationship, no one in that relationship is going to be happy.

Monogamy isn't just about the two people in the marriage. It's about the little people who are dependent on both of those people to be stable, consistent, and PRESENT. It's about the fabric of the entire community. Monogamy, to date, provides the most stable and supportive environment for raising children. Infidelity destroys people....and it's not just the sex...it's the lying, hiding, skulking, and scumbaggery that comes along with those people who are so entitled that they believe that anything is acceptable as long as they are sexually gratified.
Monogamy is the accepted norm in our society but I do dispute that it's the healthiest way to raise children. I agree that a constant parade of men/women through a home for sexual gratification only is not a healthy set-up, but I dont see why a relationship involving more than one person or a relationship where one or more partners is allowed to experiment sexually outside of the relationship would be damaging to a child, provided all other factors were taken care of.
 

Catz Part Deux

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If YOU aren't happy in a relationship, no one in that relationship is going to be happy.

Happiness is a flexible emotion. I can adjust my happiness level by working at it. This is 1960s hippyspeak that is really quite full of ****. Happiness is a choice. And, being an adult is not always a happy prospect.

To quote Al Swearengen, of Deadwood:

In life you have to do a lot of things you don't ****ing want to do. Many times, that's what the **** life is... one vile ****ing task after another.

Welcome to marriage and parenting, 101. It ain't all sunshine and roses.

Monogamy is the accepted norm in our society but I do dispute that it's the healthiest way to raise children.

There are reams of evidence that clearly demonstrate that you are wrong, but feel free to prove your claim. What evidence can you provide that shows that other forms of parenting are healthier than monogamy?

I'm going to enjoy watching you engage in an uphill slog here.

I agree that a constant parade of men/women through a home for sexual gratification only is not a healthy set-up, but I dont see why a relationship involving more than one person or a relationship where one or more partners is allowed to experiment sexually outside of the relationship would be damaging to a child, provided all other factors were taken care of.

Please feel free to provide data that suggests that sexual experimentation outside of marriage improves the overall health of the marriage. I know some couples in open relationships. In EVERY SINGLE INSTANCE, these are the last people who need the drama of inserting additional partners into an already distressed relationship. Now, clearly, that's just my experiences. However, you need to provide some hard evidence that these experimental marriage forms are workable. I doubt such evidence exists.

But there are tons of studies that show that divorce and/or separation is almost always detrimental to children. AND, there are multiple studies that suggest that children are at much higher risk of being sexually and physically assaulted by non-parents in their homes. That's enough for me. :)

I'm going to suggest that you have zero experiences with marriage, and probably haven't had more than a couple of relationships lasting longer than 2 or 3 years. Your experience with marital happiness is freaking limited. And thus, your posts on the subject should be taken with a bushel of salt.
 
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Paschendale

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If YOU aren't happy in a relationship, no one in that relationship is going to be happy.

Monogamy is the accepted norm in our society but I do dispute that it's the healthiest way to raise children. I agree that a constant parade of men/women through a home for sexual gratification only is not a healthy set-up, but I dont see why a relationship involving more than one person or a relationship where one or more partners is allowed to experiment sexually outside of the relationship would be damaging to a child, provided all other factors were taken care of.

Love is the healthiest way to raise children. And financial stability. Everything else is negotiable.
 

Hoplite

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Happiness is a flexible emotion. I can adjust my happiness level by working at it. This is 1960s hippyspeak that is really quite full of ****. Happiness is a choice. And, being an adult is not always a happy prospect.

To quote Al Swearengen, of Deadwood:



Welcome to marriage and parenting, 101. It ain't all sunshine and roses.
So a person should just accept an unhappy relationship because "being an adult isnt always happy"? That's....a horribly depressing thought.


There are reams of evidence that clearly demonstrate that you are wrong, but feel free to prove your claim. What evidence can you provide that shows that other forms of parenting are healthier than monogamy?

I'm going to enjoy watching you engage in an uphill slog here.
The fact that perfectly healthy individuals can come out of blended families and very screwed up ones can come out of nuclear families and vice versa. This indicates there are FAR more factors at play than just the presence of a mother and father. But all factors being equal, there is no logical reason children brought up in blended families do any better or worse than children brought up in nuclear families, assuming all other factors are the same.

Please feel free to provide data that suggests that sexual experimentation outside of marriage improves the overall health of the marriage. I know some couples in open relationships. In EVERY SINGLE INSTANCE, these are the last people who need the drama of inserting additional partners into an already distressed relationship. Now, clearly, that's just my experiences. However, you need to provide some hard evidence that these experimental marriage forms are workable. I doubt such evidence exists.
The evidence is that MANY people have these kinds of relationships and their relationship still exists. The fact that such relationships DO exist is proof of concept.

But there are tons of studies that show that divorce and/or separation is almost always detrimental to children. AND, there are multiple studies that suggest that children are at much higher risk of being sexually and physically assaulted by non-parents in their homes. That's enough for me. :)
I dont dispute any of that, however I dont see what it has to do with the OP.

I'm going to suggest that you have zero experiences with marriage, and probably haven't had more than a couple of relationships lasting longer than 2 or 3 years. Your experience with marital happiness is freaking limited. And thus, your posts on the subject should be taken with a bushel of salt.
Y'know, you CAN talk to someone WITHOUT being a huge jerk. It IS possible.
 

Orion

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So a person should just accept an unhappy relationship because "being an adult isnt always happy"? That's....a horribly depressing thought.

I think her point is that if you have other commitments and investments, like children, it's not as easy as simply walking away because you are unhappy right now. Happiness is a state of being and it's not tied to external circumstance. Often times people expect their partner to 'make' them happy, otherwise they will look for something better. This kind of ultimatum-style thinking shows a complete misunderstanding of what relationships are. You exist separately, but together, and you support each other through thick and thin. You don't just take off because the going gets tough. That isn't love. And to pre-empt the rebuttal I know you are going to make: of course it's normal to end a relationship if it's consistently unhealthy. But we're not talking about that right now. I am referring to the laissez-faire style of relations that people tend to have these days.

The fact that perfectly healthy individuals can come out of blended families and very screwed up ones can come out of nuclear families and vice versa. This indicates there are FAR more factors at play than just the presence of a mother and father. But all factors being equal, there is no logical reason children brought up in blended families do any better or worse than children brought up in nuclear families, assuming all other factors are the same.

How is that logical? Parents have to work to provide unless they were born with a silver spoon in their mouth, which means a single parent's opportunity cost of working is the time to be directly involved with his/her children. Absentee parents make for dysfunctional childrearing. This is solidly confirmed across the board in many studies and has been for a long time now. Monogamous, two-parent households will always be, in general, more stable than single parent households. Obviously there are exceptions to the rule, like two completely dysfunctional people staying together "for the children" or other such non-sense, but on the whole, monogamy increases success of family planning.

Anyway, this is a complete divergence from what my original post was about. I'm 25 and not looking to raise a family right now. I was talking about monogamy from the standpoint of individual stability in relationships, and people's seeming failure to invest in any kind of long-term commitment or emotional bonding. The laissez-faire thinking is trying to be the counter-culture to the monogamy of the baby boomer generation because many of us witnessed what a dismal failure that was for our parents; but now we are flipping to the polar opposite behaviour where a lot of people don't seem to want to form roots or long-term ties at all and that is just as unhealthy.

There has to be a middle ground.

The evidence is that MANY people have these kinds of relationships and their relationship still exists. The fact that such relationships DO exist is proof of concept.

There are always going to be successful instances in any kind of scenario, but you can't ignore the trends either.

Y'know, you CAN talk to someone WITHOUT being a huge jerk. It IS possible.

True.
 

Hoplite

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I think her point is that if you have other commitments and investments, like children, it's not as easy as simply walking away because you are unhappy right now. Happiness is a state of being and it's not tied to external circumstance. Often times people expect their partner to 'make' them happy, otherwise they will look for something better. This kind of ultimatum-style thinking shows a complete misunderstanding of what relationships are. You exist separately, but together, and you support each other through thick and thin. You don't just take off because the going gets tough. That isn't love. And to pre-empt the rebuttal I know you are going to make: of course it's normal to end a relationship if it's consistently unhealthy. But we're not talking about that right now. I am referring to the laissez-faire style of relations that people tend to have these days.
On that I mostly agree.

Even considering externalities, sacrificing yourself if you are truly in a position where you're unhappy can have extremely serious un-intended side effects. For instance, if you're in a marriage where you've determined you dont love the other person but you want to stay for the sake of kids or something similar, your partner and the kids WILL pick up on that and your relationship will eventually sour. Yes splitting up is hard on kids, but sometimes staying in a sinking relationship is even harder on them.

How is that logical? Parents have to work to provide unless they were born with a silver spoon in their mouth, which means a single parent's opportunity cost of working is the time to be directly involved with his/her children. Absentee parents make for dysfunctional childrearing. This is solidly confirmed across the board in many studies and has been for a long time now. Monogamous, two-parent households will always be, in general, more stable than single parent households. Obviously there are exceptions to the rule, like two completely dysfunctional people staying together "for the children" or other such non-sense, but on the whole, monogamy increases success of family planning.
Then wouldn't a polyamorous family consisting of three or four individuals be even better than monogamy if your concern is time to work and provide? The problem is there is SO much more than JUST having time for your kids. That's a BIG part of it, but not the only part by far.

Anyway, this is a complete divergence from what my original post was about.
It is, I'd rather keep this thread on-topic.

I'm 25 and not looking to raise a family right now. I was talking about monogamy from the standpoint of individual stability in relationships, and people's seeming failure to invest in any kind of long-term commitment or emotional bonding. The laissez-faire thinking is trying to be the counter-culture to the monogamy of the baby boomer generation because many of us witnessed what a dismal failure that was for our parents; but now we are flipping to the polar opposite behaviour where a lot of people don't seem to want to form roots or long-term ties at all and that is just as unhealthy.

There has to be a middle ground.
I agree

There are always going to be successful instances in any kind of scenario, but you can't ignore the trends either.
Is there a trend of consistent failure in polyamorous or open relationships that is greater than that of monogamous relationships, taking into account that there are FAR more monogamous relationships than there are of non-traditional relationships?
 

Orion

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On that I mostly agree.

Even considering externalities, sacrificing yourself if you are truly in a position where you're unhappy can have extremely serious un-intended side effects. For instance, if you're in a marriage where you've determined you dont love the other person but you want to stay for the sake of kids or something similar, your partner and the kids WILL pick up on that and your relationship will eventually sour. Yes splitting up is hard on kids, but sometimes staying in a sinking relationship is even harder on them.

I know, but again that is not really what I personally was talking about. At least if you tried and failed, the end result is that you tried. How many people are content to just go through life colliding with bodies but having no lasting substance?

Then wouldn't a polyamorous family consisting of three or four individuals be even better than monogamy if your concern is time to work and provide? The problem is there is SO much more than JUST having time for your kids. That's a BIG part of it, but not the only part by far.

That would seem logical, but polyamorous situations aren't helpful either... mostly because there aren't fixed parental roles. More partners can appear while others disappear. It creates a transient environment for children. They need fixed parental figures.

Is there a trend of consistent failure in polyamorous or open relationships that is greater than that of monogamous relationships, taking into account that there are FAR more monogamous relationships than there are of non-traditional relationships?

Heh... you need only talk to most polyamorous people to see that there is something not right going on. I think, if done properly, polyamory can work... such as if you have a fixed number of partners and don't deviate from those individuals, and they all know about each other. Polyamory has been abused as a term though... people think it means they can be with whoever they want while having non-disclosure. That isn't polyamory, it's cheating and dishonourable.
 

Harry Guerrilla

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So a person should just accept an unhappy relationship because "being an adult isnt always happy"? That's....a horribly depressing thought.

Not to be rude, but there is a lot of depressing stuff, that comes with adulthood.

I don't think anyone here is begrudging multi-partner relationships but Catz is merely saying that you have to do stuff in life, that you won't like, sometimes for your partner.

That is life, for real.
Just because you may be unhappy for 1 day, 1 week or 1 month doesn't mean it's permanent.
Relationship partners have that happen, even after being together for years.
You're supposed to work through all that, not just throw your hands up and quit.
 

Catz Part Deux

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So a person should just accept an unhappy relationship because "being an adult isnt always happy"? That's....a horribly depressing thought.

This is a strawman. I never suggested such. If your relationship is unhappy, do the best you can to fix it. Don't just walk away. Further, happiness is transient. You can cultivate it inside your soul, but if you expect a relationship or another person to provide this for you, you're doomed to disappointment. It doesn't work like that.

Being an adult is tough stuff. It means dealing with disappointment, upsets, and occasionally, unhappiness.

Sometimes, relationships are unfixable. I would never suggest that a woman or man remain in a relationship where there is violence, abuse, or chronic infidelity.. On the other hand, I see people get married with unrealistic expectations all the time and then throw up their hands because they are unwilling to engage in the standard self-sacrifice and work that maintaining a relationship requires.

Your posts are filled with...for lack of a better word...CRAP...that suggests that you have little real world experience with adulthood and the demands of marriage.

To clarify: My happiness or lack thereof is not dependent upon another person. It is entirely dependent on me, as an adult. Whether I am happy/fulfilled is dependent on me.

The fact that perfectly healthy individuals can come out of blended families and very screwed up ones can come out of nuclear families and vice versa. This indicates there are FAR more factors at play than just the presence of a mother and father. But all factors being equal, there is no logical reason children brought up in blended families do any better or worse than children brought up in nuclear families, assuming all other factors are the same.

There are always statistical anomalies. I asked you to prove your contention: That blended or polyamorous families are more/as successful as monogamous families. Relying on statistical anomalies is not evidence. Kids grow up in all kinds of horrific circumstances, but that doesn't mean that those circumstances are good for kids, or are the ideal we should be striving for.

The evidence is that MANY people have these kinds of relationships and their relationship still exists. The fact that such relationships DO exist is proof of concept.

I don't think you understand the concept of evidence. What percentage of these relationships split up? is this higher or lower than monogamous couples? What are the outcomes with children?

The simple fact of the matter is broken relationships expose children to increased risk. Children whose parents divorce suffer multiple problems. The more adults you add to that equation, the greater the possibility of further trauma.

Beyond that, raising children is a difficult, frustrating task, and it is even more frustrating if they aren't your biological offspring:

Young children who live in households with one or more unrelated adults are nearly 50 times as likely to die from an inflicted injury, usually being shaken or struck, as children living with two biologic parents, report researchers from the University of Missouri-Columbia and the University of Chicago in the November 2005 issue of the journal Pediatrics. Unrelated adults in the home associated with child-abuse deaths - University of Chicago Medical Center

I dont dispute any of that, however I dont see what it has to do with the OP.

Your contention is that polyamory or other similar relationships aren't detrimental to children. The evidence suggests (strongly) that you are inaccurate. Like I said...the best situation for children is two married, monogamous parents without assorted lovers/slaves/boyfriends/girlfriends, etc. to cause disruption.

Y'know, you CAN talk to someone WITHOUT being a huge jerk. It IS possible.

Your posts demonstrate sloppy thinking and a narcissistic worldview. I'm not going to apologize for dismantling it, even if that is painful for you.
 
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Korimyr the Rat

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Love is the healthiest way to raise children. And financial stability. Everything else is negotiable.

And like all things that are negotiable, the "everything else" you refer to has a price.
 

Hoplite

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I know, but again that is not really what I personally was talking about. At least if you tried and failed, the end result is that you tried. How many people are content to just go through life colliding with bodies but having no lasting substance?
A lot of people live their lives that way.

That would seem logical, but polyamorous situations aren't helpful either... mostly because there aren't fixed parental roles. More partners can appear while others disappear. It creates a transient environment for children. They need fixed parental figures.
Most polyamorous relationships DO involve a stable romantic relationship, just involving more than two people.

Heh... you need only talk to most polyamorous people to see that there is something not right going on. I think, if done properly, polyamory can work... such as if you have a fixed number of partners and don't deviate from those individuals, and they all know about each other. Polyamory has been abused as a term though... people think it means they can be with whoever they want while having non-disclosure. That isn't polyamory, it's cheating and dishonourable.
I think you addressed your own point. Being polyamorous is directly antithetical to lying and cheating as polyamorous relationships are built on the concepts of openness and trust. When you start cheating and lying, you move out of the realm of polyamory.

Not to be rude, but there is a lot of depressing stuff, that comes with adulthood.
I agree, however I dont see a reason to forcibly subject yourself to a situation that you CAN fix where you are extremely unhappy. Situations like that are part of why people cheat; they feel trapped in their current relationship so they step out.

I don't think anyone here is begrudging multi-partner relationships but Catz is merely saying that you have to do stuff in life, that you won't like, sometimes for your partner.
I understand and agree with that. However I think it's a bad idea to stay in an unhappy relationship as, sooner or later, it will bite you in the ass.

That is life, for real.
Just because you may be unhappy for 1 day, 1 week or 1 month doesn't mean it's permanent.
Relationship partners have that happen, even after being together for years.
You're supposed to work through all that, not just throw your hands up and quit.
No one is talking about throwing up their hands and quitting. If you're in a relationship that you know is fundamentally incompatible with how you are, that probably wont change. Yes its possible to re-kindle a relationship, but the hard truth of it is that most people dont know how. I'm simply arguing that if you are in a relationship where you have tried and failed to cope as well as turn the situation around to no avail, the thing to do is get OUT, not just sit down and accept that you're doomed forever in that relationship.
 

cpwill

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I disagree. I think it's more that the younger generation isnt buying into the ideal that we once had in our society of a monogamous heterosexual relationship being THE best way to make yourself happy. Through the wide proliferation of information that we currently have and the exposure to other ways of thought, the younger generation has decided on a more self-fulfilling endgame goal rather than what tradition tells us we should go for.

We are starting to discover that, no, what we believed for so long to be the ideal really doesnt work for everyone and we're still trying to work out for ourselves all the different ways to engage in a relationship that makes us happy.

see, i think that's our problem. we've been taught that we have to pursue this Great God Perfect Happiness, that someone else will Make Us Happy; that they will be the Perfect One For Us, our One True Love or whatever. it's crap.

we have been raised to be instant-gratification-seeking ingrates who expect / demand that another do something for us, which is completely antithetical to how a successful relationship based on reality works. if you want a successful relationship you both have to be mature enough to realize that your happiness and joy will be a complete byproduct of you seeking to do that something for them. But our parents never taught us this, they became the Divorce Generation instead because they, too, were too busy chasing their Perfect Personal Gratification :roll: of course our relationships are going to be F*****d.

thanks baby boomers; another way you've screwed this country up.


Generation Me: Why Today's Young Americans Are More Confident, Assertive, Entitled--and More Miserable Than Ever Before
 
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Hoplite

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thanks baby boomers; another way you've screwed this country up.
Lets not get hasty. In all fairness, a hyper-monogamous society IS an efficient way of maintaining social order and thus a society in adverse conditions. And you could definitely do worse than a nuclear family unit as a means of raising and protecting children in less advanced societies. Monogamy isnt a bad choice for developing societies and it's a good safety mechanism for society to enforce a social order.

That said, what protected our societies during their development can become a hindrance. As our society grows, evolves, and learns, we start to focus more on other things and we begin to understand that the human need for affection, love, and sex can be met through other means with no detrimental effect to our society provided we have the wisdom to act responsibly.
 

Catz Part Deux

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see, i think that's our problem. we've been taught that we have to pursue this Great God Perfect Happiness, that someone else will Make Us Happy; that they will be the Perfect One For Us, our One True Love or whatever. it's crap.

we have been raised to be instant-gratification-seeking ingrates who expect / demand that another do something for us, which is completely antithetical to how a successful relationship based on reality works. if you want a successful relationship you both have to be mature enough to realize that your happiness and joy will be a complete byproduct of you seeking to do that something for them. But our parents never taught us this, they became the Divorce Generation instead because they, too, were too busy chasing their Perfect Personal Gratification :roll: of course our relationships are going to be F*****d.

thanks baby boomers; another way you've screwed this country up.

Preach it, Brutha Will.
 

Catz Part Deux

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As our society grows, evolves, and learns, we start to focus more on other things and we begin to understand that the human need for affection, love, and sex can be met through other means with no detrimental effect to our society provided we have the wisdom to act responsibly.

Yeah. There are zero studies that suggest that your new social experiment is healthy for children. NONE. So, again, it's all about you, and has nothing to do with what is in the best interests of the children.
 

Aunt Spiker

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From my person experiences with this subject:

People seem to enter (all age groups, by the way) into relationships with false pre-tenses or expectation - and when that relationship pans out to be different than they hoped for it's hard to accept.

Take me for example: I entered into my marriage firmly set on having a 50/50 relationship - we all share all duties equally: both work, both take turns cooking and cleaning - a bit 'family' atmosphere in which there are no differences of function due to gender: we both mow the lawn, change tires, pay the bills, go grocery shopping.

The reality is things just don't work that way - whether you like it or not - someone will work more hours, be sick more often, be bad at keeping up with paying the bills, be forgetful, be less concerned with how often the laundry is fully taken care of.

:shrug:

You need to figure out what you do well - and do that.
The other needs to figure out what they do well - and do that.

The compromise should come when you both don't enjoy, like or do something well - but it still needs to get done. Might as well suffer together.

It took me years to accept that there was no point in me working because childcare took up my *entire* paycheck that I worked hard to earn. . . I had to sacrifice my *want* to work with the *practicality* of it - it was impractical and thus pointless.

Thus - I ended up taking on duties by myself. We shifted into the classic "Stay at home Mom / Working Dad" atmosphere - and it took me years to accept it and do it without being bitter every day.

That's just the way the cookie crumbled. And it wasn't a good tasting cookie for me, either. I considered what my life would be like without being married often (cheating? no - I didn't consider that) but being single? Yep - thought about it. As if being divorced and with 4 kids would somehow fix our situation or something (rather stupid, I know).
 
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