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Louisiana's bold bid to privatize schools

Supoort that. Stupid is stupid, be it local or federal. And without centralized standards, one area can be great and another horrendous. Remember, it used to be the way you want it and there are reasons why that changed.

How is the USA doing, worldwide, with these wonderful "centarlized" standards?

After all, we top the world in per student spending but...

Links: Statistics on American K-12 Public Education - The Broad Foundation - Education

Why Can't U.S. Students Compete With the Rest of the World? - Newsweek and The Daily Beast

Education in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
For some things centralized standards make wonderful sense. But centralized planning nearly always fails.

And now it is time to change it back. I wonder if public sector unions are the reason why education is so generally bad.

I don't know of any centralized planning. Give me an example of what you're speaking of. Feds don't plan for local schools.
 

You should know those doing better than us have centralized standards. This suggests the problem isn't in the standards being centralized.
 
You should know those doing better than us have centralized standards. This suggests the problem isn't in the standards being centralized.

What nonsense. So our standards are wonderful yet they are just not followed? Why do you insist on making posts with NO POINT? Please do tell us just how we can constantly spend more yet manage to achieve worse results? I am sick of excuses (illogic?) that all is outside of the control of those that we have placed in control, yet changes to those in control are not waranted. Explain that, using plain concise declarative statements, not silly riddles or questions.
 
What nonsense. So our standards are wonderful yet they are just not followed? Why do you insist on making posts with NO POINT? Please do tell us just how we can constantly spend more yet mamage to achieve worse results? I am sick of excuses (illogic?) that all is outside of the control of those that we have placed in control, yet changes to those in control are not waranted. Explain that, using plain concise declarative statements, not silly riddles or questions.

It's a simple truth. Those that are better than us have centralized standards. This is a clear point. If they are centralized, and are doing better, how can you blame being centralized as the problem. Wouldn't it sugegst that the problem muct lay elsewhere?

Trying to figure out what is really the problem is not making excuses. I sometimes worry that your side misses what is in your examples. Stossel for example present schools that were run ina socailistc nature, and got praise from republicans. Nothing I have said is difficult to follow. What you claim doesn't make sense once you realize those above us have centralized standards. Can't you see this?
 
It's a simple truth. Those that are better than us have centralized standards. This is a clear point. If they are centralized, and are doing better, how can you blame being centralized as the problem. Wouldn't it sugegst that the problem muct lay elsewhere?

Trying to figure out what is really the problem is not making excuses. I sometimes worry that your side misses what is in your examples. Stossel for example present schools that were run ina socailistc nature, and got praise from republicans. Nothing I have said is difficult to follow. What you claim doesn't make sense once you realize those above us have centralized standards. Can't you see this?

Again, you bob, weave and spew generalized nonsense. It is federal meddling that makes massive amounts of time and energy be WASTED in all public schools. Teachers should TEACH, parents should PARENT. Schools are not intended to teach basic social behavior, discipline and monitor child nutrition or play family councellor. All of these goofy side missions that turn schools into nannies, day care and life mentors are detracting from the REAL mission which is to simply teach students actual educational content. If "students" do not behave and allow the others in the class an opportunity to learn them they should be removed, and their parents told to get them in shape to attend school NEXT YEAR. We have far too many side missions and no expectation that "students" will behave; teachers spend far too much time playing parent and nanny with "no child left behind" nonsense to leave enough time to actually teach the lesson plan.
 
Yeah, I've read this a few times before already. This does not show planning. It may show involvement, creating rules, standards, such. Not planning. Schools are run locally.

NONSENSE. The article specifically addresses the LACK of local control. The federal rules are CLEAR, follow them TO THE LETTER or lose funding.
 
Again, you bob, weave and spew generalized nonsense. It is federal meddling that makes massive amounts of time and energy be WASTED in all public schools. Teachers should TEACH, parents should PARENT. Schools are not intended to teach basic social behavior, discipline and monitor child nutrition or play family councellor. All of these goofy side missions that turn schools into nannies, day care and life mentors are detracting from the REAL mission which is to simply teach students actual educational content. If "students" do not behave and allow the others in the class an opportunity to learn them they should be removed, and their parents told to get them in shape to attend school NEXT YEAR. We have far too many side missions and no expectation that "students" will behave; teachers spend far too much time playing parent and nanny with "no child left behind" nonsense to leave enough time to actually teach the lesson plan.

No, being specific isn't weaving and bobing. He said, and you entered the conversation, that the feds ran the schools. That is simply not true.

As for teaching basic social behavior, it's hard to get through the school day with students who don't understand basic social behavior. And this has been taiught in schools from the begining. We were also taught citizenship. Use to get a grade for it.

What is lacking is good personal education from home concerning respect and proper manners. Too many teachers are forced to deal with assholes (many parents) who don't know how to behave. This is not the federal governments fault, nor is it a by product of centralized standards (you've gone far a field).

You also overstate what you call side issues. Most are done in context of actual core material. You know, math, science, English, logic, and government. Though much more logic should be addressed in all subjects. Just saying . . . .

And teachers do plan lessons.

You might also look at the role the state and parents play in what teachers are expecrted to do.
 
NONSENSE. The article specifically addresses the LACK of local control. The federal rules are CLEAR, follow them TO THE LETTER or lose funding.

Only on certian issues, not in running the school. You must make proper distinctions. And, btw, as with NCLB, they are free to lose funding. They can also lobby for different rules.
 
I don't know of any centralized planning. Give me an example of what you're speaking of. Feds don't plan for local schools.
My perspective is that the Feds have essential control over every important aspect of education. Perhaps I am wrong. Do the feds decide what a fifth grader must know before he or she can be moved into the sixth grade? Do the feds decide that imbeciles and idiots will be taught no matter the cost? Do the feds determine how much space each child must have, give direction for how long the schools day must be? Do the feds determine that some subjects must be taught?
I do have a major assumption. 70 plus billion dollars buys a great deal of meddling. Add additional unfunded mandates that the states and local taxpayers must fund and there is way less local autonomy that I would like.
 
My perspective is that the Feds have essential control over every important aspect of education. Perhaps I am wrong. Do the feds decide what a fifth grader must know before he or she can be moved into the sixth grade? Do the feds decide that imbeciles and idiots will be taught no matter the cost? Do the feds determine how much space each child must have, give direction for how long the schools day must be? Do the feds determine that some subjects must be taught?
I do have a major assumption. 70 plus billion dollars buys a great deal of meddling. Add additional unfunded mandates that the states and local taxpayers must fund and there is way less local autonomy that I would like.

Good points so Boo will NEVER reply, see post #181 links. Not only that, but federal funding is tied to MAKING many students be designated as "special", since over 40% of federal aid is for "special" students. Wonder why so many misbehaving morons are now labeled ADHD? Hmm...
 
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No, being specific isn't weaving and bobing. He said, and you entered the conversation, that the feds ran the schools. That is simply not true.
I did not say that the federal government runs local schools. I said that central planning is the danger. The Feds directly spend around 70 billion dollars each year to influence what happens in schools. There are probably a dozen major laws and hundreds of other laws that directly and indirectly compel local schools to act one way or another, to do or not do things.

Money from Heaven always comes with Heavenly strings. Some of them are ropes.
 
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My perspective is that the Feds have essential control over every important aspect of education. Perhaps I am wrong. Do the feds decide what a fifth grader must know before he or she can be moved into the sixth grade? Do the feds decide that imbeciles and idiots will be taught no matter the cost? Do the feds determine how much space each child must have, give direction for how long the schools day must be? Do the feds determine that some subjects must be taught?
I do have a major assumption. 70 plus billion dollars buys a great deal of meddling. Add additional unfunded mandates that the states and local taxpayers must fund and there is way less local autonomy that I would like.

What is important is subjective. But they do not run the daily opperations of a school. And yes, they determine the standards, though schools are free to dumb down (and many do), allow parents to decide things like how many points a student gets even when they don't do an assignment (52% here), and how they will accomplish meeting the standards set by the government. They are told how to do it.

I again mention, as no one has addressed it, the schools ahead of us have centralized standards. Explain how they do that if being centralized is the problem.
 
Good points so Boo will NEVER reply, see post #181 links. Not only that, but federal funding is tied to MAKING many students be designated as "special", since over 40% of federal aid is for "special" students. Wonder why so many misbehaving morons are now labeled ADHD? Hmm...

I've seen your links, but do not see how they address what I'm we're discussing. They do not answer the question I posed to you. If centralized standards are the problem, why do those above us succeed with centralized standards?
 
Well, by "privatize" they still mean "state funded". Just the parents get to pick the provider. So, not a really accurate headline by Reuters but hey :D It's the policies that count.


States are our laboratories, it will be interesting to see how Education in Louisiana, Indiana, and Florida fare following conservative reforms in each.




I also find it interesting they keep re-hitting the "it's gonna be business owners and preachers educating kids" bit, given that teachers will continue to educate children. The article itself is pretty clearly biased as hell, but hey :thumbs: again, it's the policies that matter. Louisiana saw great things post-Katrina with freeing up education, I guess they want to build on that success.

I'm not keen on tax dollars being used to finance religious institutions
 
I've seen your links, but do not see how they address what I'm we're discussing. They do not answer the question I posed to you. If centralized standards are the problem, why do those above us succeed with centralized standards?

What "I'm we're" discussing is WHY U.S. public education spends the MOST of all the nations yet scores in WELL BELOW most of them. The links posted CLEARLY showed massive federal "centralized standards/control/planning". You insist on playing little sissy word games that say "we have standards, they have standards so standards are not the issue", which is simply FLUFF. The standards of those "above" us say enforce discipline and teach students, our standards say play parent and teach in your spare time. That is like saying they use numbers, and we use numbers so any of those numbers should answer THE given math problem.

Clearly our "central" educational standards/planning RESULTS in spendng more to get inferior results, hardly a success story; the mission (and topic of this thread) is how to change that. You seem to want to just spew random assumptions and fluff to PRETEND to be discussing something when, in fact, you say nothing at all, simply repeat the same silly (unsubstantiated) assertions and pose silly questions like "if we have X and they have X, then why is Z?". You seem to want to play "debate master" and make silly judgements on what is "proper" and "on point" in other posts, yet NEVER supply any original thoughts or ideas, simply poo poo those ideas of others as "off topic" or "wrong" and pose silly questions.
 
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What "I'm we're" discussing is WHY U.S. public education spends the MOST of all the nations yet scores in WELL BELOW most of them.

Clearly our "central" educational standards/planning RESULTS in spendng more to get inferior results, hardly a success story;

Could you please present the evidence that the USA scores well below most nations in the world in education standards? That is a ridiculous and absurd statement.

There is no central educational system in the USA. We have thousands upon thousands of different educational systems.
 
What "I'm we're" discussing is WHY U.S. public education spends the MOST of all the nations yet scores in WELL BELOW most of them. The links posted CLEARLY showed massive federal "centralized standards/control/planning". You insist on playing little sissy word games that say "we have standards, they have standards so standards are not the issue", which is simply FLUFF. The standards of those "above" us say enforce discipline and teach students, our standards say play parent and teach in your spare time. That is like saying they use numbers, and we use numbers so any of those numbers should answer THE given math problem.

Clearly our "central" educational standards/planning RESULTS in spendng more to get inferior results, hardly a success story; the mission (and topic of this thread) is how to change that. You seem to want to just spew random assumptions and fluff to PRETEND to be discussing something when, in fact, you say nothing at all, simply repeat the same silly (unsubstantiated) assertions and pose silly questions like "if we have X and they have X, then why is Z?". You seem to want to play "debate master" and make silly judgements on what is "proper" and "on point" in other posts, yet NEVER supply any original thoughts or ideas, simply poo poo those ideas of others as "off topic" or "wrong" and pose silly questions.

Us ranks 37 th in spending.

Education spending (% of GDP) statistics - countries compared - Nationmaster
 
What "I'm we're" discussing is WHY U.S. public education spends the MOST of all the nations yet scores in WELL BELOW most of them. The links posted CLEARLY showed massive federal "centralized standards/control/planning". You insist on playing little sissy word games that say "we have standards, they have standards so standards are not the issue", which is simply FLUFF. The standards of those "above" us say enforce discipline and teach students, our standards say play parent and teach in your spare time. That is like saying they use numbers, and we use numbers so any of those numbers should answer THE given math problem.

Clearly our "central" educational standards/planning RESULTS in spendng more to get inferior results, hardly a success story; the mission (and topic of this thread) is how to change that. You seem to want to just spew random assumptions and fluff to PRETEND to be discussing something when, in fact, you say nothing at all, simply repeat the same silly (unsubstantiated) assertions and pose silly questions like "if we have X and they have X, then why is Z?". You seem to want to play "debate master" and make silly judgements on what is "proper" and "on point" in other posts, yet NEVER supply any original thoughts or ideas, simply poo poo those ideas of others as "off topic" or "wrong" and pose silly questions.

BTW, I'm sorry you don't like logical questions. When you make an assertion that being centralized is the problem (something that really isn't what we have), I think itis fair to point out that the schools ahead of us are in fact centralized. This fact suggests, logically, that there is a different problem. So far, you've made assertions you have not supported, like the US spends more than any other nation. All I want is for you to address the points made and not merely run around saying you're right without addressing the points before you.
 
Could you please present the evidence that the USA scores well below most nations in the world in education standards? That is a ridiculous and absurd statement.

There is no central educational system in the USA. We have thousands upon thousands of different educational systems.

Links of USA ranking in world K-12 education:

Statistics on American K-12 Public Education - The Broad Foundation - Education

International Education Rankings Suggest Reform Can Lift U.S. | ED.gov Blog

U.S. Falls In World Education Rankings, Rated 'Average'

http://www.neha.org/pdf/JEH/columns/JEH3.11_MgED_World_Rankings_of_the_U.S_Education_NEHA.pdf
 
BTW, I'm sorry you don't like logical questions. When you make an assertion that being centralized is the problem (something that really isn't what we have), I think itis fair to point out that the schools ahead of us are in fact centralized. This fact suggests, logically, that there is a different problem. So far, you've made assertions you have not supported, like the US spends more than any other nation. All I want is for you to address the points made and not merely run around saying you're right without addressing the points before you.

US education spending link: K-12 Spending Per Student in the OECD | Mercatus
 
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