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Looted art from Germany in Russia - should it be returned?

Sanddune

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Merkel tells Putin Germany wants looted art returned | Reuters

An old Russian-German disagreement on Art looted by Soviet soldiers from German museums after WW2 resurfaced today. Merkel and Putin visited an exhibition in St. Petersburg, with some looted artefacts, like the treasure of Eberswalde, a collection of golden objects from the bronze age found near Berlin in 1913. The German position is that it should be returned to Germany to its former owners. The Russian position is that those artefacts are to be kept in Russia as compensation for the loss of cultural heritage suffered by Russia in WW2.

What do you think?
 

ecofarm

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Why does Putin keep stealing stuff?
 

Lord of Planar

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Merkel tells Putin Germany wants looted art returned | Reuters

An old Russian-German disagreement on Art looted by Soviet soldiers from German museums after WW2 resurfaced today. Merkel and Putin visited an exhibition in St. Petersburg, with some looted artefacts, like the treasure of Eberswalde, a collection of golden objects from the bronze age found near Berlin in 1913. The German position is that it should be returned to Germany to its former owners. The Russian position is that those artefacts are to be kept in Russia as compensation for the loss of cultural heritage suffered by Russia in WW2.

What do you think?
1) I think Putin has a point. However, it would be a nice gift to return them to Germany.

2) Is this the cause of the superbowl ring joke?
 

Sanddune

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1) I think Putin has a point. However, it would be a nice gift to return them to Germany.
Actually there even has been an agreement between Russia and Germany in 1992 that the art would be returned. Yeltsin apparently was going to return it, but it didn't happen and at some point people in Russia started seeing it as a trophy and a proof of victory and keeping it became a question of national honor. Germany on the other hand insists that according to international law, the artefacts have to be returned.

I think it's a good first step that the artefacts are in an exhibition and can be seen now.

Good will from both sides is needed, and right now there is good will from neither side. Russia should respect Germany's claim to its own cultural heritage and Germany should give up its lawyerish position of insisting on international law and and also see the moral issues involved. The Germans could limit themselves to claiming a selection of the artefacts which are really important for Germany's cultural roots and identity, rather than arguing from a legal perspective. Russia should give those back, maybe in return for a collection of Russian artworks from German museums, and the Russians could keep, for example, Priam's treasure (originally from Troy, discovered by the German Schliemann) as a "trophy".

I think part of the problem is that every museum generally does everything to hold onto everything it has. That's why so many Egyptian treasures are in London, Paris, and Berlin and not in Cairo where they belong.

2) Is this the cause of the superbowl ring joke?
Didn't even know about the superbowl ring to be honest but it's a funny story ;)
 

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Why does Putin keep stealing stuff?
Cause him and his Satellites in Europe are assholes. They have stolen the famous clock of Prizren from the "Clock Tower" in the last 1999 war. Now its just a tower without a clock. The clock's location is in a previous Dardanian land in Nish which is now under Serbia ever since the Balkans war when we were cleansed from there (this one not telelvised unfortunately!).
 

ecofarm

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Didn't even know about the superbowl ring to be honest but it's a funny story ;)
It's funnier when people start treads about it being Cold war propaganda directed against Putin. The story has a way of illustrating ones disconnect.
 

RabidAlpaca

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Any prominent museum in the world is full of artifacts from all over the globe, not just the country of the owners.

I don't think Russia has any real obligation to give it back. You'll find a million foreign artifacts in German museums, and I doubt they'd give any of that back.

And if we somehow all have the oligation to give back what we took in the war, Germany needs to give us 6 years and the 416,000 human lives.
 
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Sanddune

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Any prominent museum in the world is full of artifacts from all over the globe, not just the country of the owners.

I don't think Russia has any real obligation to give it back. You'll find a million foreign artifacts in German museums, and I doubt they'd give any of that back.

And if we somehow all have the oligation to give back what we took in the war, Germany needs to give us 6 years and the 416,000 human lives.
Actually I remember that there has been a disagreement between Germany and Egypt on a bust of Nofretete. This kind if issue is morally a bit fuzzy I think. I wonder what all the Greeks and Egyptians feel like who have their heritage scattered across the world?

Well apparently Germany cannot give back any American lives just like Americans can't give back Vietnamese, Filipino, or Japanese lives. But looted art can be given back, and in case of WW2, the art looted by German troops was given back as far as it hadn't been destroyed in the war. There is a point to be made that the Russians should honor their treaties, that countries are entitled to their cultural heritage, and that keeping the art means justifying the looting of private property after the fact. At the same time it has to be recognized that Russia has also lost a lot of cultural heritage due to the German invasion in WW2.

I think this whole issue would be a good possibility to send a signal of good relations between Russia and Germany if it weren't for the politicians on both sides. A compromise should be found, for instance Germany could take care of refurbishing one or two Russian churches in return for a few pieces of art we really want back. That is, IF it really is about the art itself. In any case, looted German art has partly been given back to East Germany decades ago already, so maybe we just have to wait for the right political "weather" (and for a pair of leaders more harmonious than Putin and Merkel). I guess with Gerhard Gazprom Schrjodr it would have been easier to deal with the "flawless democrat" Vladimir... ;)
 

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1) I think Putin has a point. However, it would be a nice gift to return them to Germany.

2) Is this the cause of the superbowl ring joke?
Putin's argument is crap, because The Soviets did more damage to Russian culture during WW2 than the Germans did.
 

Sanddune

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Putin's argument is crap, because The Soviets did more damage to Russian culture during WW2 than the Germans did.
Well the point about Nazi Germany having destroyed a lot in Russia is a valid one, but taking it as a justification of looting is not imo. And in any case, looted German cultural heritage cannot replace destroyed Russian heritage, because it will not become Russian heritage.
 

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Merkel tells Putin Germany wants looted art returned | Reuters

An old Russian-German disagreement on Art looted by Soviet soldiers from German museums after WW2 resurfaced today. Merkel and Putin visited an exhibition in St. Petersburg, with some looted artefacts, like the treasure of Eberswalde, a collection of golden objects from the bronze age found near Berlin in 1913. The German position is that it should be returned to Germany to its former owners. The Russian position is that those artefacts are to be kept in Russia as compensation for the loss of cultural heritage suffered by Russia in WW2.

What do you think?
As a Russian, my answer is no. And i couldn't care less about Yeltzin's agreements from the 90's.

Cheers,
Fallen.
 

Sanddune

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As a Russian, my answer is no. And i couldn't care less about Yeltzin's agreements from the 90's.

Cheers,
Fallen.
So you don't think your country should honour its agreements?
 
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CanadaJohn

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If these items were stolen from German people/families or if the items were stolen by Germany from people/families, then I would support the items being returned to the heirs of the rightful owners. If, however, these items were the property of the German state, purchased or acquired by the state legally, then I would support Russia retaining the items as "to the victor, go the spoils of war".
 

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If these items were stolen from German people/families or if the items were stolen by Germany from people/families, then I would support the items being returned to the heirs of the rightful owners. If, however, these items were the property of the German state, purchased or acquired by the state legally, then I would support Russia retaining the items as "to the victor, go the spoils of war".
I think some were state-owned, some were privately owned.
 

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I think some were state-owned, some were privately owned.
In my view, the privately owned should be returned to the heirs of their rightful owners.

Another issue, in my view, would be whether or not the items are related to Germany history or culture and not just antiquities or art pieces collected from other cultures but owned by Germans. If the German state owned a relic from ancient Egypt, as an example, I would say Russia should either be returned to Egypt or it could be retained in Russia.
 

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So you don't think your country should honour its agreements?
No. Not the agreements made by man that with his family and team sold out Russia to criminals and oligarchs, plunging the rest pf population in to deadly wars, poverty and corruption.

Fallen.
 

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In my view, the privately owned should be returned to the heirs of their rightful owners.

Another issue, in my view, would be whether or not the items are related to Germany history or culture and not just antiquities or art pieces collected from other cultures but owned by Germans. If the German state owned a relic from ancient Egypt, as an example, I would say Russia should either be returned to Egypt or it could be retained in Russia.
That I certainly agree with. I think the German government should limit itself to asking for those objects which are important for German history and culture, like for example artefacts from the Merowingians, possibly in return for compensation of some form. A strictly legalistic perspective doesn't seem to be helpful.
 

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No. Not the agreements made by man that with his family and team sold out Russia to criminals and oligarchs, plunging the rest pf population in to deadly wars, poverty and corruption.

Fallen.
What you are lacking is a sense of national honour and self-respect. Otherwise, you would say that even if he was drunk when he signed it (which he probably was ;)) the agreement should be honoured.
 

Fallenangel

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What you are lacking is a sense of national honour and self-respect. Otherwise, you would say that even if he was drunk when he signed it (which he probably was ;)) the agreement should be honoured.
No mate, what you are lacking is the understanding of what the man and his "team" has done to literally destroy my country.
It has nothing to do with whether he was drunk or not when he signed it.

...So you can shove your "honor" and "self-respect" to you know where, and look for your national heritage somewhere else.

Fallen.
 

Sanddune

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No mate, what you are lacking is the understanding of what the man and his "team" has done to literally destroy my country.
It has nothing to do with whether he was drunk or not when he signed it.
...So you can shove your "honor" and "self-respect" to you know where, and look for your national heritage somewhere else.
Fallen.
Sure, Yeltsin ruined your country and now the only things you have left is ancient artefacts which the red army looted from Germany after the war. :lamo
This is hilarious.
 
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Fallenangel

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Sure, Yeltsin ruined your country and now the only things you have left is ancient artefacts which the red army looted from Germany after the war. :lamo
This is hilarious.

No, Yeltizin and his team destroyed my country, period.

Btw I'm sure that these people below would of course agree with your moronic views of Yeltzin's role and "achievements" in Russia's history. Not.

DETAIL_PICTURE_577794.jpg

chechnya_russia41.jpg

rossiya-90-yh.jpg



90-e_04.jpg

Fallen.
 

Sanddune

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No, Yeltizin and his team destroyed my country, period.

Btw I'm sure that these people below would of course agree with your moronic views of Yeltzin's role and "achievements" in Russia's history. Not.

View attachment 67149384

View attachment 67149385

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Fallen.
I wasn't actually praising Yeltsin in general. In any case that doesn't really have anything to do with the question of returning robbed art. Anyway it's a good first step that the pieces of art can be seen by the public now. Patience is needed.
 
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Rainman05

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Russia stole a lot of stuff from a lot of people. Fat chance getting it back.
 
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