lol (1 Viewer)

[bub]

I believed that you were all extremists on this forum.

But I found a forum with Baptists, and most of you are really moderate compared to them!

To my question "so you say that women and blacks are inferior, and you are not tolerant" they answered those are the Holy words of God. He does not speak about tolerance :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

WOOOOOOAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

I believed tolerance was an universal valor. It shocked me to discover that in the USA, it is not universal. In Saudi Arabia I would have understood, but in the USA??????

And I also believed racism was universally condemned, especially by believers. Once more, I was wrong.

Those guys think they are still in the middle age, say we will all burn in hell because we are poor sinners, and forgive their own excesses because they say it's written in a book. Frightening. The Mollah Omar would not have done better.

 

[Rev.]

I believed that you were all extremists on this forum.

But I found a forum with Baptists, and most of you are really moderate compared to them!

:rofl When I get tired of being the most liberal on the Christian forums I hang out on, I come here where I get to be the most conservative.

To my question "so you say that women and blacks are inferior, and you are not tolerant" they answered those are the Holy words of God. He does not speak about tolerance

Well, let's see...the idea that blacks are inferior comes out of Genesis with an account of Noah and his sons. One of Noah's sons discovered Noah drunk and naked and went and told his brothers. The two brothers grabbed Noah's robe, backed into the tent and covered him with it. when Noah found out what had happened, he pronounced a curse on the tattling son...that his descendants would be slaves to the other brothers descendants. Later, we read in the geneological record that the cursed son's descendants settled in Cush (in Africa...). Doesn't take a rocket scientist to extrapolate from there...

However, to interpret that account as Biblical justification for racism would be incorrect. Jesus is an equal opportunity Saviour.

I believed tolerance was an universal valor. It shocked me to discover that in the USA, it is not universal. In Saudi Arabia I would have understood, but in the USA??????

Ahhhh...the sticky wicket for Christians. Understand that Christians are "holy, the elect, the set apart ones." It's not about being exclusive, it's about being distinct (properly understood). The Bible calls us "peculiar."

The world has taken the word "tolerant" and made it to mean "everything is good." But everything is NOT good. What the world is apparently blind to is in their admiration of tolerance, they become intolerant because they don't tolerate anyone who is not tolerant. Bottom line: everyone is intolerant of SOMETHING. In my opinion, tolerance should not be such a valued virtue since it is impossible to attain.

And I also believed racism was universally condemned, especially by believers. Once more, I was wrong.

Some theological viewpoints support racism, others don't. Christianity is not completely homogenous.

Those guys think they are still in the middle age, say we will all burn in hell because we are poor sinners, and forgive their own excesses because they say it's written in a book. Frightening. The Mollah Omar would not have done better.

Curious: what excesses?

 

[bub]

Well, let's see...the idea that blacks are inferior comes out of Genesis with an account of Noah and his sons. One of Noah's sons discovered Noah drunk and naked and went and told his brothers. The two brothers grabbed Noah's robe, backed into the tent and covered him with it. when Noah found out what had happened, he pronounced a curse on the tattling son...that his descendants would be slaves to the other brothers descendants. Later, we read in the geneological record that the cursed son's descendants settled in Cush (in Africa...). Doesn't take a rocket scientist to extrapolate from there...

However, to interpret that account as Biblical justification for racism would be incorrect. Jesus is an equal opportunity Saviour.

Please please please...the Bible is a story. It may say that x or y is inferior, but if you take the Kuran or the Torah, it says the contrary (z or w is inferior), so you can't justify untolerance when you compare with other cultures.

And no scientist has ever said that since x is descendant of y, he has to be a slave. They just says that humans evoluted in Africa and then spread in Eurasia. We all come from the same ancestors so we are equal.

Ahhhh...the sticky wicket for Christians. Understand that Christians are "holy, the elect, the set apart ones." It's not about being exclusive, it's about being distinct (properly understood).

I'm also Christian (however, more and more atheist. Just go and see what the Baptist say, you'll understand...) but the argument of the elected people is just st*pid. Every people may argue it has been elected, and there isn't any rational proof. So it's simply irrelevant.

The world has taken the word "tolerant" and made it to mean "everything is good." But everything is NOT good.

Yes, intolerance is not good. As long as a cultural practice does not harm you, you must not reject it a priori. You don't like gays/foreigners? OK, go and speak with them, explain your point of view and share arguments. But don't say "x or y is a sin because it's written there, there and there" without having met them.

Some theological viewpoints support racism, others don't. Christianity is not completely homogenous.

OK, but racism...I don't know any educated people who is racist or who thinks that he is superior to x or y because x or y was born in another country/ born woman.

Curious: what excesses?

Mainly untolerance and racism, but if you give me 10 minutes to read their forum I will find much more, such as strong prejudices and rejecting of everything that is not American and patriotic. And also arrogance towards the latters.

In my country (yes we have freedom of speech, even more than you I think but I don't want to argue about this) it is forbidden to say racist/anti-gay/anti-x things on TV. Is it the same in the States?

 

[Rev.]

Please please please...the Bible is a story. It may say that x or y is inferior, but if you take the Kuran or the Torah, it says the contrary (z or w is inferior), so you can't justify untolerance when you compare with other cultures.

And no scientist has ever said that since x is descendant of y, he has to be a slave. They just says that humans evoluted in Africa and then spread in Eurasia. We all come from the same ancestors so we are equal.

Where, oh where in my post did I say I agree with racism? Because I can explain a POV does not mean I embrace it as my own.

I'm also Christian (however, more and more atheist. Just go and see what the Baptist say, you'll understand...) but the argument of the elected people is just st*pid. Every people may argue it has been elected, and there isn't any rational proof. So it's simply irrelevant.

I know what the Baptists say...which is why I'm not Baptist. I do not believe in Predestination the way they do, therefore I understand "elect" differently. Don't keep Christianity in such a small box.

Yes, intolerance is not good. As long as a cultural practice does not harm you, you must not reject it a priori. You don't like gays/foreigners? OK, go and speak with them, explain your point of view and share arguments. But don't say "x or y is a sin because it's written there, there and there" without having met them.

Being gay or a person of another race is not a "cultural practice." How society reacts toward the gay or minority person is a "cultural practice." And ALL "cultural practices" involve a level of intolerance.

Once upon a time, society accepted smoking as okay. Now it is intolerant of smokers and makes them stand out on the street. Once upon a time, society allowed young children to work for wages. Now it is intolerant of child labor. Once upon a time, you could not find a single retail establishment that was open on Sundays. Now Sundays are big shopping days.

Intolerance exists. Period. Just look at your intolerance of certain Christian viewpoints.

OK, but racism...I don't know any educated people who is racist or who thinks that he is superior to x or y because x or y was born in another country/ born woman.

Rockerfellar was one. Teddy Roosevelt was another. So was Winston Churchhill. We are a product of our times...and so were they.

Mainly untolerance and racism, but if you give me 10 minutes to read their forum I will find much more, such as strong prejudices and rejecting of everything that is not American and patriotic. And also arrogance towards the latters.

The American brand of Christianity is unique...don't judge it all by Fundamentalism.

In my country (yes we have freedom of speech, even more than you I think but I don't want to argue about this) it is forbidden to say racist/anti-gay/anti-x things on TV. Is it the same in the States?

I honestly don't know...our family doesn't subscribe to cable and we have no reception otherwise.

We did rent All In the Family through Netflix and watched it with our older kids. We had to explain all the racist comments to our kids because our kids just didn't get it...society has progressed!!!

 

[GarzaUK]

tolerance is very much a secular concept

 

[Wyrmdog]

I believed that you were all extremists on this forum.

But I found a forum with Baptists, and most of you are really moderate compared to them!

To my question "so you say that women and blacks are inferior, and you are not tolerant" they answered those are the Holy words of God. He does not speak about tolerance :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

WOOOOOOAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

I believed tolerance was an universal valor. It shocked me to discover that in the USA, it is not universal. In Saudi Arabia I would have understood, but in the USA??????

The more you learn about the USA the more you'll realize that very little here is universal. It gets painted as such as often as not and we are just as often misrepresented by the media and popular entertainment as any other nation. Without actually spending time in the United States or with Americans, you can end up with a very skewed outlook. The same is true of Americans when dealing with people of other nationalities. Our exposure is usually limited and seen through a very few specific lenses.

The only cure for ignorance is understanding.

And I also believed racism was universally condemned, especially by believers. Once more, I was wrong.

Those guys think they are still in the middle age, say we will all burn in hell because we are poor sinners, and forgive their own excesses because they say it's written in a book. Frightening. The Mollah Omar would not have done better.

Religions are quite often conservative in nature. It preserves the institution. But if you continue to try and learn about Christianity you'll come to find there are some sects that are appallingly liberal in the eyes of some of their fellow Christians. Most Christian sects I'm familiar with speak against racism and have little tolerance of it.

Sects that are Biblical literalists are more likely to be tolerant of racism, but even that isn't a guarantee.

And bear in mind that racism isn't the sole province of religion. Political and cultural motivations are also historically rampant.

 

[bub]

At the beginning that made me laugh to speak to them, then I saw they were serious and I was scared.

Now I am worried because people told me there were many sects in the USA and I did not believe them (oh yes, the I knew the mormons but they are kind), I see that some are much less sympathic than the mormons and I was very astonished to see how self-confident they are with their valors, while I believed racism and untolerance were fought everywhere.

What could I answer to them? If I give a rational atheist argument, they answer (it's not a joke!!!) that I should read the holy Bible, the only true one, the words of God...and that if I don't I'll burn in hell...woawwww I'm really taken aback!!!

This week I'll be very busy (still 6 exams to pass) but next week I'll come back and try to make a true debate with rational arguments with them, at least to understand their point.

 

[Schweddy]

The only cure for ignorance is understanding.

Indeed!

 

[faithful_servant]

I believed that you were all extremists on this forum.

But I found a forum with Baptists, and most of you are really moderate compared to them!

To my question "so you say that women and blacks are inferior, and you are not tolerant" they answered those are the Holy words of God. He does not speak about tolerance :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

WOOOOOOAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

I believed tolerance was an universal valor. It shocked me to discover that in the USA, it is not universal. In Saudi Arabia I would have understood, but in the USA??????

And I also believed racism was universally condemned, especially by believers. Once more, I was wrong.

Those guys think they are still in the middle age, say we will all burn in hell because we are poor sinners, and forgive their own excesses because they say it's written in a book. Frightening. The Mollah Omar would not have done better.

Could you provide us with a link to this site, so that we can see if it's a nutbag site or a mainstream one? There's lot's of nuts out there and being a Christian doesn't exclude you from the club. As far we know, you're visiting the Christian version of the DU.

 

[Wyrmdog]

What could I answer to them? If I give a rational atheist argument, they answer (it's not a joke!!!) that I should read the holy Bible, the only true one, the words of God...and that if I don't I'll burn in hell...woawwww I'm really taken aback!!!

Bear in mind that you're on their forum and that they didn't come to you, you went to them. I'd suggest that it would work out better if you simply try for understanding. I doubt there will be much agreeing. Whatever you do, don't try to change their minds or berate them with logic. Religion doesn't work that way and people tend to 'turtle' when their beliefs are under attack, even just perceived attack.

Don't take that to mean you can't ask probing or potentially uncomfortable questions, but remember that a Baptist forum is likely primarily for the Baptists to discuss things with each other and you should afford them as much civility as possible, even if you think they're being offensive. You'll learn more.

P.S. I don't mean to imply you're being uncivil, just that sometimes what you might see as rational a religious person might interpret as antagonistic purely from a standpoint of mutual misunderstanding and previous negative experiences.

 

[bub]

Myes I should not have posted too fast. My first posts look agressive.

But in their answers they always stay calm. That's even more disturbing to me, I'm nearly arguing with them and they call me "Friend"...it's like sects in movies!

They are not offensive at all but some of their ideas (superiority of white men...I believed this way of thinking disappeared in 1945!) are too...opposite to my most fundamental values.

And when I say that they are not tolerant (their answer is that there isn't the word tolerance in the bible...that surprised me even more) I am myself not tolerant towards them!!!

I'll calm down before coming back there!

 

[Rev.]

At the beginning that made me laugh to speak to them, then I saw they were serious and I was scared.

To tell you the truth, they scare me, too, sometimes.

Now I am worried because people told me there were many sects in the USA and I did not believe them (oh yes, the I knew the mormons but they are kind), I see that some are much less sympathic than the mormons and I was very astonished to see how self-confident they are with their valors, while I believed racism and untolerance were fought everywhere.

Ah, but here in America, it is fashionable for each person to have his own revelation of God...whether it matches with scripture or not, that is irrelevant. The result is there are many many different denominations, each equally convinced that it has the inside track on God. I can't say I've seen much passionate discussion about racism in the church, but the issues around women continue to simmer and are especially hot wherever I happen to be sitting :2razz:

What could I answer to them? If I give a rational atheist argument, they answer (it's not a joke!!!) that I should read the holy Bible, the only true one, the words of God...and that if I don't I'll burn in hell...woawwww I'm really taken aback!!!

You can only argue with a Christian from scripture. PM me when you get ready to post and I'll help you out.