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Livingston and anti-semitism of British Labour Party

Wiggen

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For some reason I can't go to that thread. No idea why.
 

William Rea

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The Holocaust Centre documents that there was a negotitation for sending Jews to Palestine...

http://www.yadvashem.org/odot_pdf/Microsoft Word - 3231.pdf

There is no question that Germany wanted to expel the Jews and that no one else in Europe or America wanted them hence discussions along the lines of the Lublin and Madagascar plans.

Aside from being a bit clumsy, tell me exactly what Livingstone said that is factually incorrect? (and I am no fan of Livingstone whatsoever).
 

Chagos

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The Holocaust Centre documents that there was a negotitation for sending Jews to Palestine...

http://www.yadvashem.org/odot_pdf/Microsoft Word - 3231.pdf

There is no question that Germany wanted to expel the Jews and that no one else in Europe or America wanted them hence discussions along the lines of the Lublin and Madagascar plans.

Aside from being a bit clumsy, tell me exactly what Livingstone said that is factually incorrect? (and I am no fan of Livingstone whatsoever).
In defence of Naz Shah

No. It’s completely over the top [but] it’s not antisemitic. Let’s remember, when Hitler won his election in 1932 his policy then was that Jews should be moved to Israel. He was supporting Zionism. [He then] went mad and ending up killing 6 million Jews

Timeline: events leading to Ken Livingstone suspension | Politics | The Guardian

I'd call it a case of expressing blatant ignorance on what the actual so-called "cooperation" of Hitler was about. The main aim was to ruin German Jewry altogether, by grabbing most of their funds in a simple rip-off deal.

Primarily it was supposed to serve the breaking of the international anti-Nazi boycott
 

gunner

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The Holocaust Centre documents that there was a negotitation for sending Jews to Palestine...

http://www.yadvashem.org/odot_pdf/Microsoft Word - 3231.pdf

There is no question that Germany wanted to expel the Jews and that no one else in Europe or America wanted them hence discussions along the lines of the Lublin and Madagascar plans.

Aside from being a bit clumsy, tell me exactly what Livingstone said that is factually incorrect? (and I am no fan of Livingstone whatsoever).

In the context of what seems to be creeping into the Labour Party, it was an abhorrent thing to say. The relationship between the Jews and Hitler can, and should only be discussed in relation to the slaughter of millions of innocent people.
 

William Rea

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In defence of Naz Shah

No. It’s completely over the top [but] it’s not antisemitic. Let’s remember, when Hitler won his election in 1932 his policy then was that Jews should be moved to Israel. He was supporting Zionism. [He then] went mad and ending up killing 6 million Jews

Timeline: events leading to Ken Livingstone suspension | Politics | The Guardian

I'd call it a case of expressing blatant ignorance on what the actual so-called "cooperation" of Hitler was about. The main aim was to ruin German Jewry altogether, by grabbing most of their funds in a simple rip-off deal.

Primarily it was supposed to serve the breaking of the international anti-Nazi boycott

Why is it ignorance? It is documented fact that Zionists at the time were promoting a return to Israel and that Hitler was at least discussing terms for this, regardless of motive.
 
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William Rea

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In the context of what seems to be creeping into the Labour Party, it was an abhorrent thing to say. The relationship between the Jews and Hitler can, and should only be discussed in relation to the slaughter of millions of innocent people.

Why? Why is this the only context in which it can be discussed? What context in the Labour Party? Are we heading towards another da Mooslims scenario here or is it going to be da libruls this time?
 
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gunner

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About time: Labour anti-Semitism row: Jeremy Corbyn to launch inquiry - Labour anti-Semitism row: Jeremy Corbyn to launch inquiry - BBC News

Why? Why is this the only context in which it can be discussed? What context in the Labour Party? Are we heading towards another da Mooslims scenario here or is it going to be da libruls this time?

See above (inquiry into alleged anti-semitism). Why are you bringing up Muslims? Funny, George Galloway was defending his comments last night. If you really can't see why conflating Hitler with Jews, in this way, then there are no depths to your insensitivity......and manipulation of facts.

Jeremy Corbyn facing 'coup attempt' over anti-Semitism row as ministers hold talks with plotters

UK Jewish leaders seek clarification on Jeremy Corbyn's policies

UK Jewish leaders seek clarification on Jeremy Corbyn's policies | UK news | The Guardian
 
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William Rea

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See above (inquiry into alleged anti-semitism). Why are you bringing up Muslims? Funny, George Galloway was defending his comments last night. If you really can't see why conflating Hitler with Jews, in this way, then there are no depths to your insensitivity......and manipulation of facts.

Jeremy Corbyn facing 'coup attempt' over anti-Semitism row as ministers hold talks with plotters

UK Jewish leaders seek clarification on Jeremy Corbyn's policies

UK Jewish leaders seek clarification on Jeremy Corbyn's policies | UK news | The Guardian

I'm trying not to be an ass about this but, it is really difficult. I don't understand what those who are criticising Labour actually want? My question was perhaps thinking that the number of Muslims in Labour was part of the problem? PEW research suggests that perhaps 10% of the British public view Jews unfavourably are you suggesting that all of these people are in the Labour party and no other political party in Britain?

How exactly did you leap to conflating Hitler with Jews? The fact is that the Zionists actually entered into negotiations with the Nazi regime, is it wrong to point that out?

I'll ignore the cheap shot about how sensitive I am or am not and pretty much disengage from you gunner. Your posting attitude is tabloidesque at best and it hasn't changed much over the months.
 

gunner

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Why? Why is this the only context in which it can be discussed? What context in the Labour Party? Are we heading towards another da Mooslims scenario here or is it going to be da libruls this time?

I'm trying not to be an ass about this but, it is really difficult. I don't understand what those who are criticising Labour actually want? My question was perhaps thinking that the number of Muslims in Labour was part of the problem? PEW research suggests that perhaps 10% of the British public view Jews unfavourably are you suggesting that all of these people are in the Labour party and no other political party in Britain?

How exactly did you leap to conflating Hitler with Jews? The fact is that the Zionists actually entered into negotiations with the Nazi regime, is it wrong to point that out?

I'll ignore the cheap shot about how sensitive I am or am not and pretty much disengage from you gunner. Your posting attitude is tabloidesque at best and it hasn't changed much over the months.

Pot kettle!
 

William Rea

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PM Netanyahu’s Speech at the 37th Zionist Congress
20/10/2015

'And this attack and other attacks on the Jewish community in 1920, 1921, 1929, were instigated by a call of the Mufti of Jerusalem Haj Amin al-Husseini, who was later sought for war crimes in the Nuremberg trials because he had a central role in fomenting the final solution. He flew to Berlin. Hitler didn’t want to exterminate the Jews at the time, he wanted to expel the Jews. And Haj Amin al-Husseini went to Hitler and said, "If you expel them, they'll all come here." "So what should I do with them?" he asked. He said, "Burn them." And he was sought in, during the Nuremberg trials for prosecution. He escaped it and later died of cancer, after the war, died of cancer in Cairo.'

The Prime Minister of Israel states that up until the early 1940s Hitler wanted to expel rather than murder. Where is the outrage? Or is it only wrong when Non-Jews say it?

I will ask this thread in general again. What did Livingstone say that was factually incorrect?

I've also linked to another thread where selective reporting caused some issues.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/europe/252101-hillsborough-reactions.html
 

Chagos

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Why is it ignorance? It is documented fact that Zionists at the time were promoting a return to Israel and that Hitler was at least discussing terms for this, regardless of motive.
In view of what was already known of the background at the time, it was a lousy example to pick. The motive was plunder and I'd be surprised if Livingstone is unaware of this. His ignorance consisted of citing merely the fact that the Nazis were doing a deal and presenting it in a manner as though they were in the least bit interested in the further plight of the very citizens they were plundering.

Absurd is the notion that the holocaust that followed was due to an onset of insanity on Hitler's part.

Nevertheless I see the whole uttering less as a sign of anti-semitic sentiment than as a colossal blunder caused by speaking before thinking.
 

Chagos

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Higgins86

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I'm no fan of Livingston but on this issue I agree with him. Israel has become the very thing that they were nearly wiped out by and I think Livingston probably speaks for most British people in regards to how we feel about Israel.
 

Apocalypse

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How exactly did you leap to conflating Hitler with Jews? The fact is that the Zionists actually entered into negotiations with the Nazi regime, is it wrong to point that out?

That doesn't mean Hitler had "supported the Zionist movement", that's like saying that because of the Molotov-Ribbentrop agreement we can say Hitler had supported Communism or the Soviet Union as it had seen to the interest of Communism and of the USSR, economically and geographically. In what universe is the twisting of history in such brutal manners about Hitler and his relation to his Jewish population not antisemitism? You really believe he has supported Zionism? What next, you're going to say Hitler was celebrating Passover every goddamned year?
 

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I'm no fan of Livingston but on this issue I agree with him. Israel has become the very thing that they were nearly wiped out by and I think Livingston probably speaks for most British people in regards to how we feel about Israel.

Fortunately no, the majority of the British public are not yet antisemites. You'll have to wait several decades before you can establish the fourth Reich I'm afraid, Higgins.
 

Higgins86

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Fortunately no, the majority of the British public are not yet antisemites. You'll have to wait several decades before you can establish the fourth Reich I'm afraid, Higgins.

So disagreeing with your horrendous humanitarian record makes you anti semetic?
 

Infinite Chaos

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- I think Livingston probably speaks for most British people in regards to how we feel about Israel.

I don't recognise this among the Brits I work with daily and I'm really surprised to read that from you?
 

Higgins86

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I don't recognise this among the Brits I work with daily and I'm really surprised to read that from you?

You think most of the UK supports Israel's humanitarian record?
I mean we have never been close allies with Israel.
 

Infinite Chaos

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You think most of the UK supports Israel's humanitarian record?
I mean we have never been close allies with Israel.

I don't think many Brits even know where Israel is let alone know much about her. I'd say the same about most other countries including the number of Brits who even know how many countries there are in the UK.

As for humanitarian record - this is going to get the thread shifted to the ME section but I have very few qualms about Israel's record - and she has been involved in humanitarian efforts around the world.
 

Higgins86

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I don't think many Brits even know where Israel is let alone know much about her. I'd say the same about most other countries including the number of Brits who even know how many countries there are in the UK.

As for humanitarian record - this is going to get the thread shifted to the ME section but I have very few qualms about Israel's record - and she has been involved in humanitarian efforts around the world.


It's a shame their humanitarian aid doesn't make it across to Gaza.

Now Livingston and Ms Sha didn't exactly word it great but I think people should be critical of Israel. many Brits including myself didn't grow up watching the new Israel fighting of their lives against an enemy which surrounded them on all sides. We grew up with an Israel who is heavily armed, funded by the US, engages in heavy bombing of civilian areas and uses intimation tactics to further their own cause.

They are bully's and stating that does not make one anti semetic.
 

Infinite Chaos

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It's a shame their humanitarian aid doesn't make it across to Gaza.

Where do you think all the spare parts, water etc come through?

As for the rest, I think you need to look at all the offers of peaceful cooperation and coexistence Israel has made since her inception. None of her offers of peace have been accepted; even now if the Gazans voted peacemakers in rather than Hamas people they would find progress happening pretty quickly.
 

Higgins86

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Where do you think all the spare parts, water etc come through?

As for the rest, I think you need to look at all the offers of peaceful cooperation and coexistence Israel has made since her inception. None of her offers of peace have been accepted; even now if the Gazans voted peacemakers in rather than Hamas people they would find progress happening pretty quickly.

They offer piece with one hand whilst they build more settlements with the other.
It's at the point now where even the US have stopped vocally supporting Israel, Obama has all but walked away from the table.
 
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