Life in the womb[W;94]

[Gaugingcatenate]

Re: Life in the womb

Actually you took care of the prolem by using the word "usually"... you see, I expect the person on the other end to do a little bit of thinking on their own, yanno? So, you can answer your own, I am still asking mine as stated...and for the conscious, with the implied.

Got it now, do we?

 

[minnie616]

Re: Life in the womb

....

Lets use this hypothetical thought experiment. Can a Siamese twin just arbitrarily kill its twin? Since they are attached and all? You think that would/should be legal? I ll leave you to digest that.

....

A better question is :

How can a conjoined twin kill his twin and survive?

Poison kills both since they are so intimately connected.
Stabbing or gunshot causes blood loss which will kill both.
Cutting off the air supply such as strangulation or other methods causes cell death in the twin , and as the cells die
toxins will kill the other twin.

Now they are both dead.

In the case of the fetus and the woman ...if the woman dies a pre-viable fetus will never survive even if removed quickly and given the best medical care including artificial life support.

The pre viable fetus is getting it's life functions from the live woman.

 

[Gaugingcatenate]

Re: Life in the womb

A better question is :

How can a conjoined twin kill his twin and survive?

Poison kills both since they are so intimately connected.
Stabbing or gunshot causes blood loss which will kill both.
Cutting off the air supply such as strangulation or other methods causes cell death in the twin , and as the cells die
toxins will kill the other twin.

Now they are both dead.

In the case of the fetus and the woman ...if the woman dies a pre-viable fetus will never survive even if removed quickly and given the best medical care including artificial life support.

The pre viable fetus is getting it's life functions from the live woman.

You are avoiding the question by going through these gyrations... use the hands to cut off oxygen to the head of the one twin [ the hands are in on it, they are accomplices to this deed]...and I do not believe you about the cells dying so the other one just dies of toxicity...what are your sources on that? So, now the one is brain dead and was killed by his twin.

So, is murder or what? It should be allowed in your book, eh?

As to the previable fetus, you are willing to concede then that only pre-viable babies should be allowed? I don't agree with that, all should be allowed to live. You are just bound and determined to make sure those babies are killed, aren't you?

 

[Gaugingcatenate]

Re: Life in the womb

A better question is :

How can a conjoined twin kill his twin and survive?

Poison kills both since they are so intimately connected.
Stabbing or gunshot causes blood loss which will kill both.
Cutting off the air supply such as strangulation or other methods causes cell death in the twin , and as the cells die
toxins will kill the other twin.

Now they are both dead.

In the case of the fetus and the woman ...if the woman dies a pre-viable fetus will never survive even if removed quickly and given the best medical care including artificial life support.

The pre viable fetus is getting it's life functions from the live woman.

You are avoiding the question by going through these gyrations... use the hands to cut off oxygen to the head of the one twin [ the hands are in on it, they are accomplices to this deed]...and I do not believe you about the cells dying so the other one just dies of toxicity...what are your sources on that? So, now the one is brain dead and was killed by his twin.

So, is it murder or what? It should be allowed in your book, eh?

As to the previable fetus, you are willing to concede then that only pre-viable babies should be allowed? I don't agree with that, all should be allowed to live. You are just bound and determined to make sure those babies are killed, aren't you?

 

[minnie616]

Re: Life in the womb

...

As to the previable fetus, you are willing to concede then that only pre-viable babies should be allowed? ...

If a woman has a miscarriage and the embryo or fetus dies , the woman almost aways lives.
Even though the unborn is attached to the woman via the placenta and umbilical cord her life is not conjoined with the unborn.
The unborn before viability however is complely dependant on the woman's life since if she dies and it is quickly removed no medical help or advanced artifical life saving equipment can save the pe viables life.

According to Fox News article I have posted there are only about 100 annual abortions in the US that take place at or after 24 weeks gestation.
They are the extreame cases to save the woman's life/ health.

 

[minnie616]

Re: Life in the womb

...and I do not believe you about the cells dying so the other one just dies of toxicity...what are your sources on that?

In the past, when one died the other conjoined twin soon died, because they usually shared a blood supply and sepsis sets in soon after death.

These conjoined twins died within hours of one another.

Chang & Eng Bunker (1811 - 1874)

Daisy & Violet Hilton (1908 - 1969)

 

[Scrabaholic]

Re: Life in the womb

In the past, when one died the other conjoined twin soon died, because they usually shared a blood supply and sepsis sets in soon after death.

These conjoined twins died within hours of one another.

Chang & Eng Bunker (1811 - 1874)

Daisy & Violet Hilton (1908 - 1969)

This is true, they have to be separated for the surviving one to make it. I've tried to find information corroborating this online, but all I could find was those sites where you can ask a question and anyone can answer. Maybe I'm using the wrong search terms, so if anyone else can find something, please post it.

 

[Gaugingcatenate]

Re: Life in the womb

If a woman has a miscarriage and the embryo or fetus dies , the woman almost aways lives.
Even though the unborn is attached to the woman via the placenta and umbilical cord her life is not conjoined with the unborn.
The unborn before viability however is complely dependant on the woman's life since if she dies and it is quickly removed no medical help or advanced artifical life saving equipment can save the pe viables life.

According to Fox News article I have posted there are only about 100 annual abortions in the US that take place at or after 24 weeks gestation.
They are the extreame cases to save the woman's life/ health.

So we agree that an abortion can occur to actually save the mother's life. Not the health of the mother, which is very ambiguous as it includes mental as well as physical, but only the life of the mother.

And we agree that the mother, even though the baby is attached, usually does not die if a miscarriage occurs, so the baby is not a "part of her" but only attached for the purposes of allowing the baby to live and grow. So it is a separate entity except for the mother extending to it life support. As the baby is most often strong and growing stronger, bigger with each second of life that passes, then it is incumbent upon the mother to continue giving nourishment, inside or outside the womb, so that her child may live. To suspend life support to a living human with all the prospects of doing nothing but improving is heinous. When the government makes murder legal, that, too, is heinous.

In looking at the figures quoted in Wiki, seems Canada had 2% after 21 weeks, England 1%, in the US from 2003 data, 1.4% [ for some reason the CDC does not calculate that as a part of annual study as per Wiki even though they show a chart with information provided by the CDC which seemingly does indicate that 1% for 2004, so who knows?].

If we were to estimate those amount given say 500K to 1 million performed annually here, that would be more like between 7,000 and 14,000.

 

[minnie616]

Re: Life in the womb

...

In looking at the figures quoted in Wiki, seems Canada had 2% after 21 weeks, England 1%, in the US from 2003 data, 1.4% [ for some reason the CDC does not calculate that as a part of annual study as per Wiki even though they show a chart with information provided by the CDC which seemingly does indicate that 1% for 2004, so who knows?].

If we were to estimate those amount given say 500K to 1 million performed annually here, that would be more like between 7,000 and 14,000.

Your figure was at or after 21 weeks gestation not at or after 24 weeks gestation which is the limit of viability. The Fox News article said less than 100 at or after 24 weeks gestation which is considered the age of viability ( even if the fetus is so malformed it will not survive ) unless the woman's life is at risk.
Abortions that occur after 21 weeks and before 24 weeks gestation are a case by case.
The doctor determines by certain criteria whether or not the fetus is considered viable and if it is viable an abortion will not occur.
Abortions that take place after 20 weeks gestation are much more dangerous for the woman and more risky for the doctor so they are reserved for fetal health or the health of the woman ( where irreparable damage to a major bodily function such as stroke, heart attack, paralysis from the neck down , etc. ) would occur if the pregnancy continued.

From the following May , 21, 2013 article.

A federal appellate panel struck down Arizona’s abortion law on Tuesday, saying it was unconstitutional “under a long line of invariant Supreme Court precedents” that guarantee a woman’s right to end a pregnancy any time before a fetus is deemed viable outside her womb — generally at 24 weeks.

The law, enacted in April 2012 despite vociferous protest by women’s and civil rights groups, made abortions illegal if performed 20 weeks after a woman’s last menstrual period, or roughly 18 weeks after fertilization, even if the woman learned that the fetus had no chance of surviving after birth. At 18 weeks, many fetal abnormalities can be detected through sonograms.

In its opinion, the panel of three judges assigned to the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit in San Francisco wrote that a fetus’s viability “varies from pregnancy to pregnancy,” which should be determined by doctors, not legislators.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/22/u...rtions-struck-down-in-federal-court.html?_r=1

 

[Gaugingcatenate]

Re: Life in the womb

Your figure was at or after 21 weeks gestation not at or after 24 weeks gestation which is the limit of viability. The Fox News article said less than 100 at or after 24 weeks gestation which is considered the age of viability ( even if the fetus is so malformed it will not survive ) unless the woman's life is at risk.
Abortions that occur after 21 weeks and before 24 weeks gestation are a case by case.
The doctor determines by certain criteria whether or not the fetus is considered viable and if it is viable an abortion will not occur.
Abortions that take place after 20 weeks gestation are much more dangerous for the woman and more risky for the doctor so they are reserved for fetal health or the health of the woman ( where irreparable damage to a major bodily function such as stroke, heart attack, paralysis from the neck down , etc. ) would occur if the pregnancy continued.

From the following May , 21, 2013 article.



http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/22/u...rtions-struck-down-in-federal-court.html?_r=1

Where is the proof of the only 100 abortions at of after 20 weeks stated earlier? And so you agree, absolutely no abortions after 20 weeks.

 

[minnie616]

Re: Life in the womb

Where is the proof of the only 100 abortions at of after 20 weeks stated earlier? ....

I stated the Fox News article said 100 abortions after 24 weeks gestation

...

According to Fox News article I have posted there are only about 100 annual abortions in the US that take place at or after 24 weeks gestation.
...

June 17, 2003
...
Of the 1.6 million abortions performed in the U.S. each year, 91 percent are performed during the first trimester (12 or fewer weeks' gestation); 9 percent are performed in the second trimester (24 or fewer weeks' gestation); and only about 100 are performed in the third trimester (more than 24 weeks' gestation),

Fast Facts: U.S. Abortion Statistics | Fox News

The stats since then have changed.
By 2012 the numbers of abortion were less than 1.2 million.
In 2014 the CDC reported less than I million.

Fewer than I.3 percent of legal abortions took place between 21 weeks gestation and 24 weeks gestation.

Some for maternal health , more for fetal health since fetal abnormalies usually do not show up until the 18-20 gestational week ultrasound. That only gives the parents with input from the doctor and tests to decide if they want to terminate the pregnancy since viabily usually occurs between 22 and 24 weeks.

In 2003 only about 100 abortions occur after 24 weeks gestation.

 

[jet57]

Re: Life in the womb

Of course, a polar bear fetus in the womb is polar bear but not a polar bear. And likewise an elephant fetus in the womb is elephant but not an elephant.

So, here's what I see as the real question: abortion has been going on throughout human history and until mass media, nobody knew when or where. So the fact remains that abortion is always going to be around, and whether you agree that it's a woman's right or not doesn't matter. What matters is it's not going away.

So as a human health issue what are WE going to do about it? In the broader United States, it's not a religious issue.

 

[JayDubya]

Re: Life in the womb

So, here's what I see as the real question: abortion has been going on throughout human history and until mass media, nobody knew when or where. So the fact remains that abortion is always going to be around, and whether you agree that it's a woman's right or not doesn't matter. What matters is it's not going away.

So as a human health issue what are WE going to do about it? In the broader United States, it's not a religious issue.

You're right. Despite the 13th Amendment and all that law enforcement, we still have human trafficking. Slavery is at least as old as human civilization, so I guess it's never going away. Let's just stop all that moralizing, repeal that useless amendment, and legalize the practice again.

Oh wait, no, let's just make an amendment to ban this human rights abuse too.

 

[jet57]

Re: Life in the womb

You're right. Despite the 13th Amendment and all that law enforcement, we still have human trafficking. Slavery is at least as old as human civilization, so I guess it's never going away. Let's just stop all that moralizing, repeal that useless amendment, and legalize the practice again.

Oh wait, no, let's just make an amendment to ban this human rights abuse too.

You're trying to debate apples an oranges, and that won't work for you. Abortion is a human health problem that deals with fetuses that are not walking around, so as a heath issue, what are WE going to do about it?

Can you answer that question please?

 

[JayDubya]

Re: Life in the womb

You're trying to debate apples an oranges, and that won't work for you. Abortion is a human healthy problem hat deals with fetuses that are not walking around, so as a heath issue, what are WE going to do about it?

Can answer that question please?

The human rights abuse of chattel slavery and the human rights abuse of elective abortion are not a matter of apples vs oranges. It's like red delicious and Mcintosh - both are apples, so fundamentally similar that it is undeniable.

What needs to be done about this human rights abuse is to ban it, and those who practice it anyway need to be put in prison as they deserve.

 

[jet57]

Re: Life in the womb

The human rights abuse of chattel slavery and the human rights abuse of elective abortion are not a matter of apples vs oranges. It's like red delicious and Mcintosh - both are apples.

Okay, you can't answer the question. It is beyond your ability to deal with apparently.

 

[JayDubya]

Re: Life in the womb

Okay, you can't answer the question. It is beyond your ability to deal with apparently.

I answered your question quite thoroughly.

 

[jet57]

Re: Life in the womb

I answered your question quite thoroughly.

Sorry, but you did not not. You avoided it with a diversion into the separate topic of human trafficking. That was not the issue or the question. The question I asked is this: as a human health issue, what are WE going to do about abortion? It's a very simple question that from what I can see is beyond your ability to deal with.

 

[JayDubya]

Re: Life in the womb

Sorry, but you did not not. You avoided it with a diversion into the separate topic of human trafficking. That was not the issue or the question. The question I asked is this: as a human health issue, what are WE going to do about abortion? It's a very simple question that from what I can see is beyond your ability to deal with.

The human rights issue of abortion has a solution, as already stated.

Contract killing is not a "health issue."

 

[jet57]

Re: Life in the womb

The human rights issue of abortion has a solution, as already stated.

Contract killing is not a "health issue."

I never saw anything that you have posted as a solution to a health issue. Do you have a solution to such a health issue or not?

 

[JayDubya]

Re: Life in the womb

I never saw anything that you have posted as a solution to a health issue. Do you have a solution to such a health issue or not?

You haven't brought up any health issues.

 

[jet57]

Re: Life in the womb

You haven't brought up any health issues.

Yeah, you have no solution. You never offered a solution and you're lying. You're a great example of why people fight so hard and vote to keep religious beliefs under the carpet in this country. No woman is going to die from a coat hanger as long as I have the vote.

So good luck.

 

[Removable Mind]

Re: Life in the womb

Actual Cases - Child Predator

I can post more but my heat aches when I post these stories which pro abortion clinics salivate over.

The "child predators" link is created by the folks below...

https://lifedynamics.com/

When one looks at the site above - it chimes right in with sites like LifeNews.com, etc, etc, etc....

 

[Peter King]

Re: Life in the womb

Denying the humanity of the youngest of our species is truly a sick thing.

Elevating 2 cells into a human being with all the rights that come with being a human being/person is also totally wrong and sick especially if you denounce women the right to decide of what to do with their own body.

 

[Removable Mind]

Re: Life in the womb

So, here's what I see as the real question: abortion has been going on throughout human history and until mass media, nobody knew when or where. So the fact remains that abortion is always going to be around, and whether you agree that it's a woman's right or not doesn't matter. What matters is it's not going away.

So as a human health issue what are WE going to do about it? In the broader United States, it's not a religious issue.

I agree that abortion will always exist, no matter what the law states.

However...I'm a little confused.

Are you stating that all abortions are performed because of a health issue? Or that part of those performed are because of health issues?

Abortion, in and of itself is a personal rights issue. Abortions should be defined, by law, as a legal medical procedure.

Those who use religious tenets as an instrument to decide whether or not they would have a medical procedure called abortion...is also a personal issue.

Some women do have to have abortions because of physical reasons. Some might suffer life long health problems if they don't have an abortion. Some women might die unless they have an abortion

But "most" women have other reasons for having an abortion, which are not directly connected to their personal health.

But our society needs to make damn sure that women have their medical procedures done in the safest environment possible.