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Lieberman's settlement bars Russian-Israeli families from buying homes

How about this current racist law we are currently discussing? Are you denying he is a hard liner?

What the hell is wrong with you?
This law is not made by Leiberman, lol, it is a council law by the settlement's council.
It just happens that this is the settlement where Leiberman comes from.
 
What the hell is wrong with you?
This law is not made by Leiberman, lol, it is a council law by the settlement's council.
It just happens that this is the settlement where Leiberman comes from.

Oh i assumed that Leiberman was somehow involved in its ability to come to pass.
Still, that doesn't change anything, he is a hardliner.
 
There is no indication that the public in Israel supports this attitude. I for one do not.
Likewise, there were no polls being made about this specific issue, so statistics cannot be offered.

In other words you only assume that this behaviour is not acceptable in Israel.
 
In other words you only assume that this behaviour is not acceptable in Israel.

Just like you can only assume that the majority of the children between the ages of 8 to 9 do not eat human beings for breakfast, since there were no polls made about it.
 
Just like you can only assume that the majority of the children between the ages of 8 to 9 do not eat human beings for breakfast, since there were no polls made about it.

You have come out with extreme accusations of racism towards Marywolfstonecraft about this. I know in my country if something is opposed, polls are not necessary. There is protest in the press. There are people outraged. That is what shows people do not agree with something. While I accept that you personally do not agree with this, unless their is active protest, it does appear it is in the main accepted. Your screams of 'racism' in such a situation do not seem appropriate.
 
You have come out with extreme accusations of racism towards Marywolfstonecraft about this. I know in my country if something is opposed, polls are not necessary. There is protest in the press. There are people outraged. That is what shows people do not agree with something. While I accept that you personally do not agree with this, unless their is active protest, it does appear it is in the main accepted. Your screams of 'racism' in such a situation do not seem appropriate.

Here's what she said:

Israeli Jews wish to preserve their separateness from others, to the extent of excluding them from business relationships, from the army (hmmm - reminds me a bit of the complaints against Islam), and also preventing intermarriage.

Change Israeli Jews with "Afro-Americans" and you might see this as racist, since it wouldn't be about Jews.
The generalizing of an entire group of people by their race, based on the action of a very small and tiny minority (a few dozens out of millions) is by all means racism.
Your claims that this is not racism are questionable, and are repulsive as to themselves.

By all means, just as you tend to speak generally of the UK as if you're representing it, filling every second post that you make with "We in the UK do..", then I can just as well say that we in Israel generally do not agree with such laws, as they are opposed to the values of democracy that our society is based on.
I also don't think that going out to the streets is the sole indication of not finding something appropirate, this is a bizarre assertion, you can't expect people to go to the streets because a few settlers have made a controversial law. I didn't see British people hitting the streets whenever someone got raped or robbed in Britain.
 
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Here's what she said:



Change Israeli Jews with "Afro-Americans" and you might see this as racist, since it wouldn't be about Jews.
The generalizing of an entire group of people by their race, based on the action of a very small and tiny minority (a few dozens out of millions) is by all means racism.
Your claims that this is not racism are questionable, and are repulsive as to themselves.

By all means, just as you tend to speak generally of the UK as if you're representing it, filling every second post that you make with "We in the UK do..", then I can just as well say that we in Israel generally do not agree with such laws, as they are opposed to the values of democracy that our society is based on.
I also don't think that going out to the streets is the sole indication of not finding something appropirate, this is a bizarre assertion, you can't expect people to go to the streets because a few settlers have made a controversial law. I didn't see British people hitting the streets whenever someone got raped or robbed in Britain.

My point is you move too quick with your shouts of racism. She asked that you provide information as to how she is wrong. She is new to the forum and may well be new to forums in general. As such she may not yet learnt the way to put things.

Your calls of racism while you can provide nothing to show that what she said was wrong is what I am querying.
 
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My point is you move too quick with your shouts of racism.
No I do not.
In the civilized world we consider the making of generalizations of an entire race based on the actions of a small minority to be racism.
If you were to make the claim that "Afro-Americans do not like having white people around them" it would be a racist claim.
She asked that you provide information as to how she is wrong.
Which is racist for itself, she has asked me to prove that not all Israeli Jews are following the thought line of those few settlers from the Nokdim settlement, am I really supposed to prove now that not all people who were born into a specific race in a specific country follow one single attitude laid by the small minority of those settlers?
Do you want me to provide for you proofs that not all of the Israeli Jews follow one single opinion?
Maybe I will also provide proof that not all of the Jews are greedy elitists who control our societies?
She is new to the forum and may well be new to forums in general. As such she has not yet learned the way to put things.
You mean that she has not yet learned how to hide her antisemitism. To laugh or to cry.
Your calls of racism while you can provide nothing to show that what she said was wrong is what I am querying.
No, it is you who defend pure racism while you cannot provide anything to show that the generalization of an entire race based on the actions of the few is not racism.
 
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Mira has asked who is opposing it. You cannot provide any evidence of opposition apart from the fact that you yourself do not agree with it. As such Mary...'s generalisation though put carelessly, has not been proven to be racist. If what she says is true, how can it be racism?

If there is opposition, how are you not able to provide one illustration of such?
 
As such Mary...'s generalisation though put carelessly, has not been proven to be racist. If what she says is true, how can it be racism?
Let's take it with a step-by-step attitude:

Here's what Mary has said:

Israeli Jews wish to preserve their separateness from others, to the extent of excluding them from business relationships, from the army (hmmm - reminds me a bit of the complaints against Islam), and also preventing intermarriage.

Here's the definition of racism:

According to the Oxford English Dictionary, racism is a belief or ideology that all members of each racial group possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race

By referring single attitudes (that are mainly wrong) to an entire group of people that is separated by its race is racism. That's the definition of the word.

What Mary said, that "Israeli Jews wish to preserve their separateness from others, to the extent of excluding them from business relationships, from the army, and also preventing intermarriage.", is the attributing of an attitude that perhaps could be attributed to a small minority of the group of people (even though that's wrong as well) to the entire group of people (Israeli Jews).
It is hence racism.

Here's don's reply to her for more information:
http://www.debatepolitics.com/middl...i-families-buying-homes-2.html#post1058852227

Now when someone comes up and makes a racist statement, and you in return defend the statement and say that it was not proven to be false, you yourself are making a racist statement.

That you ask me to prove to you that not all of the Israeli Jews follow this attitude is as racist as asking you to prove to me that not all of the English people in the UK believe that black people should be murdered for being black.
 
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I accept you have a problem with her saying 'Israeli Jews'. However I think this may well be more to do with inexperience on forums. I have all my life had great problems with US policy. I would often say 'the US'. Of course I was referring to policies not the US people. In life I have tended to get on with a lot of US people and I in no way dislike them as people. The policies of the US however I frequently do.

In the case of Israel you cannot say just Israel because there are Arab Israeli's and Jewish Israelis. She then made a differentiation. It was careless. However to come to the conclusion that because she was careless she is racist, I find unbecoming.


What Mary said, that "Israeli Jews wish to preserve their separateness from others, to the extent of excluding them from business relationships, from the army, and also preventing intermarriage.", is the attributing of an attitude that perhaps could be attributed to a small minority of the group of people (even though that's wrong as well) to the entire group of people (Israeli Jews).

What I am questioning is why you could not have simply told someone who is new to the forum what the situation was.

Don's reply is good.

Here is what I thought when I noticed your reply. People have already been accused of being antisemetic, I think by you as well as Gardiner. Now someone comes on who says something which does actually borderline on it and you go into a furore. I thought from already accusing people, when you meet something which is borderline you go ballistic, what would you actually do if you met someone who really was antisemetic.

Arguments are more easily won and people's opinions changed if they are provided with information as Don did rather than insults.
 
I accept you have a problem with her saying 'Israeli Jews'. However I think this may well be more to do with inexperience on forums. I have all my life had great problems with US policy. I would often say 'the US'. Of course I was referring to policies not the US people. In life I have tended to get on with a lot of US people and I in no way dislike them as people. The policies of the US however I frequently do.
Forgive me for finding way more sense in the fact that by saying "Israeli Jews" she has indeed referred to the general group of "Israeli Jews", since she has even later on asked me to base the claim that not all of the Israeli Jews follow the attitudes of this small minority of Settlers.
As don stated, that was an over-generalization made by her.
What I am questioning is why you could not have simply told someone who is new to the forum what the situation was.
Being new to the forum doesn't mean being new to this world.
If she was a 12 years old, I'll explain it to her, since she isn't, she's old enough to know that people's attitudes are not declared by their races.
Here is what I thought when I noticed your reply. People have already been accused of being antisemetic, I think by you as well as Gardiner. Now someone comes on who says something which does actually borderline on it and you go into a furore. I thought from already accusing people, when you meet something which is borderline you go ballistic, what would you actually do if you met someone who really was antisemetic.
Now I hope you understand how wrong you were and see that I was actually criticizing real and existing racism from this poster.
 
Now I hope you understand how wrong you were and see that I was actually criticizing real and existing racism from this poster.

She made a generalisation that is all. She states that she was saying this based on the article. Why based on the article which she was responding to, do you believe her use of the term 'Israel Jew' is racism.
 
She made a generalisation that is all.

A generalization by race is racism. You seem to have a problem with admitting that she has made a racist statement.

She states that she was saying this based on the article.

Where in this article do you find the statement that all of the Israeli Jews are promoting those attitudes?
In fact, the article proves otherwise, it proves that not all of the people who happened to live in Israel and have Jewish blood are following these attitudes, by stating that:

Haaretz said:
The decision came after a frenzied debate between residents over whether the entry of individuals not considered Jewish by religious law would lead to "assimilation" or improper behavior on the part of veteran residents and their children.

Meaning that even in the small settler community of the Nokdim settlement there were disagreements over this decision and it was labeled controversial, let alone amongst the entire Israeli-Jewish population.

Here's also the response of the Israeli association for civil rights on this decision, from the same article:

Haaretz said:
Gil Gan-Mor, an attorney heading the branch on housing rights at the Association for Civil Rights in Israel, said any decision not to accept a family as residents in a community on the basis of race, religion or sex is illegal discrimination.

I can't believe I just had to disprove that all of the Israeli Jews follow this attitude. I'm utterly disgusted right now, in unexplainable ways.

Why based on the article which she was responding to, do you believe her use of the term 'Israel Jew' is racism.

Attributing attitudes to an entire group of people that is separated by its race is considered racism.
Saying "Afro-Americans are thieves and rapists" is hence racist. Switch afro-Americans with Israeli-Jews and it remains racist. Switch the attitudes with other attitudes and it remains racist.
 
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A specific settlement constitutes only a small slice of Israel's population. To assume that the settlement's policies reflect those of all of Israel's Jewish people is a vast overgeneralization. The comment about excluding non-Jewish people from economic participation and the military is also incorrect.

regardless of that - what if it happened in the US?

would people be so quick to defend it?
 
What the hell?
Here is what you've stated, and I quote:

You've made a generalization, perhpas on the opinion of a very small minority (I do not even know who the hell you are referring to with those accusations), and have attributed those attitudes to an entire group of people (Israeli Jews).
Are you really asking me to prove to you that not all of the Israeli Jews are following such opinions? Do you even realize how wrong and immoral what you're saying here is?
By all means, take your own racism and shove it up your own goddamned arse.

deliberately quoting people out of context in order to misrepresent what they say is dishonest.

If I say with some very clear statements suggesting that Israeli Jews wsh to preserve their separateness from others, that s NOT the same as saying Israeli Jews wish to preserve their separateness from others If you are not illiterate, you are aware of this.

It would be no skin off your nose to state that, - that is not really correct. the evidence, based on X Y and Z is that the majority of Israeli Jews do not feel this way, and in fact .... most Israeli Jews disagree with .....

and I am sure that if you were more interested in actually discussing the issue you could find that. In the meantime - I am left with the impression - by your immediate attack on me - that you support the policy of this group.
 
Here's what she said:



Change Israeli Jews with "Afro-Americans" and you might see this as racist, since it wouldn't be about Jews.
The generalizing of an entire group of people by their race, based on the action of a very small and tiny minority (a few dozens out of millions) is by all means racism.
Your claims that this is not racism are questionable, and are repulsive as to themselves.

By all means, just as you tend to speak generally of the UK as if you're representing it, filling every second post that you make with "We in the UK do..", then I can just as well say that we in Israel generally do not agree with such laws, as they are opposed to the values of democracy that our society is based on.
I also don't think that going out to the streets is the sole indication of not finding something appropirate, this is a bizarre assertion, you can't expect people to go to the streets because a few settlers have made a controversial law. I didn't see British people hitting the streets whenever someone got raped or robbed in Britain.

and again you quote me out of context, with the deliberate intent of painting me as an anti semite.

I cannot help but wonder where people such as yourself are when the rest of us are arguing with the true anti semites, holocaust deniers and people who post claims about "blood libel."
 
Apocalypse, first of all thanks for pointing out that painting an entire people with the same brush when only a small minority is causing problems is racist.
In that case you do admit that the incessant attacks on Islam and Arabs by your friends on this forum are racist.

second, here in France people do not protest each time there is a murder but there is public outrage, protests and sit ins each and every time an incident involving racism takes place. I was hoping that the same happened in Israel and people apart from Bt'Selem and Gush Shlom pprotested.
 
I accept you have a problem with her saying 'Israeli Jews'. However I think this may well be more to do with inexperience on forums. I have all my life had great problems with US policy. I would often say 'the US'. Of course I was referring to policies not the US people. In life I have tended to get on with a lot of US people and I in no way dislike them as people. The policies of the US however I frequently do.

In the case of Israel you cannot say just Israel because there are Arab Israeli's and Jewish Israelis. She then made a differentiation. It was careless. However to come to the conclusion that because she was careless she is racist, I find unbecoming.




What I am questioning is why you could not have simply told someone who is new to the forum what the situation was.

Don's reply is good.

Here is what I thought when I noticed your reply. People have already been accused of being antisemetic, I think by you as well as Gardiner. Now someone comes on who says something which does actually borderline on it and you go into a furore. I thought from already accusing people, when you meet something which is borderline you go ballistic, what would you actually do if you met someone who really was antisemetic.

Arguments are more easily won and people's opinions changed if they are provided with information as Don did rather than insults.

no. the problem is that Apocalypse deliberately chose to misrepresent my post, for the purpose of painting me as a racist and anti semite. Its quite disgusting that this is accepted as "debate".
 
No I do not.
In the civilized world we consider the making of generalizations of an entire race based on the actions of a small minority to be racism.
If you were to make the claim that "Afro-Americans do not like having white people around them" it would be a racist claim.
Which is racist for itself, she has asked me to prove that not all Israeli Jews are following the thought line of those few settlers from the Nokdim settlement, am I really supposed to prove now that not all people who were born into a specific race in a specific country follow one single attitude laid by the small minority of those settlers?
Do you want me to provide for you proofs that not all of the Israeli Jews follow one single opinion?
Maybe I will also provide proof that not all of the Jews are greedy elitists who control our societies?

You mean that she has not yet learned how to hide her antisemitism. To laugh or to cry.

No, it is you who defend pure racism while you cannot provide anything to show that the generalization of an entire race based on the actions of the few is not racism.

This is a disgusting post. you DELIBERATELY choose to quote me out of context for th epurpose of calling me an anti semite.

what do you actually know about anti semitism?

where are you when holocaust deniers and those who still post claims of blood libel show up on forums?
 
A generalization by race is racism. You seem to have a problem with admitting that she has made a racist statement.
This particular article was talking about different type of Israeli's one of them was Israeli Jews. She calimed to be responding to the article. If I as a teacher were to give that article to my class and ask them to discuss it, I would not see one of them referring to Israeli Jews as racism. As this was the basis on which she used the term, I do not.

Where in this article do you find the statement that all of the Israeli Jews are promoting those attitudes?

It does not say that all Israel Jews support it but it does contain some material and attitudes which a lot of us would find totally unacceptable if it were being tried in our own countries

"The biggest problem is that if you accept 10 families in which the mother isn't Jewish, then soon there will be 30 children, and tomorrow your son could fall in love with the good-looking girl next door. It's a real problem," Heiman said.

to quote just one. These were the things she picked up to. In just the same way as you responded to her emotionally, she no doubt responded to the article emotionally. The values presented there are very far from ours.

In fact, the article proves otherwise, it proves that not all of the people who happened to live in Israel and have Jewish blood are following these attitudes, by stating that:

Meaning that even in the small settler community of the Nokdim settlement there were disagreements over this decision and it was labeled controversial, let alone amongst the entire Israeli-Jewish population.

Indeed she ought to have said the majority if she was being exact.

Here's also the response of the Israeli association for civil rights on this decision, from the same article:
I am well aware Apocalypse that Israel has good people working towards civil rights for all. However Mary**** being new to the forum might not. This is just a little footnote. Yes her argument required correction but the article also contained emotionally explosive things. She responded as she saw at that time. Shayah and Don gave her more information on the subject, Don correctly saying that she was make a generalisation.


I can't believe I just had to disprove that all of the Israeli Jews follow this attitude. I'm utterly disgusted right now, in unexplainable ways.

No one has asked you to prove that all Israeli Jews do not have this attitude.

Both Mary**** and Mira also asked whether this was being opposed by anyone. Opposition normally being what happens when people believe a situation is wrong. Saying nothing frequently meaning quiet agreement.

You accused someone of speech bordering on hate speech and racism for an inexact understanding of an article.


Attributing attitudes to an entire group of people that is separated by its race is considered racism.
Saying "Afro-Americans are thieves and rapists" is hence racist. Switch afro-Americans with Israeli-Jews and it remains racist. Switch the attitudes with other attitudes and it remains racist.

Well you have just been over reacting to the whole thing and making a mountain out of a molehill.

Whether Mary***** suffers from racism I would not know, I have not seen enough of her posts but I have not as yet seen any evidence and to come hammering in calling someone a racist and accusing them of 'hate speech' for a generalisation, tells me more about you than her. You may be unaware but to people who are not racist, it hurts being called it just like it hurts those who they are racist to, if they are. To those who are racist, they will not give a care being generally proud of it.
 
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Let's take it with a step-by-step attitude:

Here's what Mary has said:



Here's the definition of racism:



By referring single attitudes (that are mainly wrong) to an entire group of people that is separated by its race is racism. That's the definition of the word.

What Mary said, that "Israeli Jews wish to preserve their separateness from others, to the extent of excluding them from business relationships, from the army, and also preventing intermarriage.", is the attributing of an attitude that perhaps could be attributed to a small minority of the group of people (even though that's wrong as well) to the entire group of people (Israeli Jews).
It is hence racism.

Here's don's reply to her for more information:
http://www.debatepolitics.com/middl...i-families-buying-homes-2.html#post1058852227

Now when someone comes up and makes a racist statement, and you in return defend the statement and say that it was not proven to be false, you yourself are making a racist statement.

That you ask me to prove to you that not all of the Israeli Jews follow this attitude is as racist as asking you to prove to me that not all of the English people in the UK believe that black people should be murdered for being black.

deliberate misrepresentation again. and personal insults.
 
A generalization by race is racism. You seem to have a problem with admitting that she has made a racist statement.



Where in this article do you find the statement that all of the Israeli Jews are promoting those attitudes?
In fact, the article proves otherwise, it proves that not all of the people who happened to live in Israel and have Jewish blood are following these attitudes, by stating that:



Meaning that even in the small settler community of the Nokdim settlement there were disagreements over this decision and it was labeled controversial, let alone amongst the entire Israeli-Jewish population.

Here's also the response of the Israeli association for civil rights on this decision, from the same article:



I can't believe I just had to disprove that all of the Israeli Jews follow this attitude. I'm utterly disgusted right now, in unexplainable ways.



Attributing attitudes to an entire group of people that is separated by its race is considered racism.
Saying "Afro-Americans are thieves and rapists" is hence racist. Switch afro-Americans with Israeli-Jews and it remains racist. Switch the attitudes with other attitudes and it remains racist.

where in my post dod you find I say ALL Israelis think this way?
 
If I say with some very clear statements suggesting that Israeli Jews wsh to preserve their separateness from others, that s NOT the same as saying Israeli Jews wish to preserve their separateness from others If you are not illiterate, you are aware of this.
:rofl:rofl:rofl

So, saying that Israeli Jews wsh to preserve their separateness from others is not the same as saying that Isreali Jews wish to preserve their separateness from others.
Yes, I completely understand.
and I am sure that if you were more interested in actually discussing the issue you could find that. In the meantime - I am left with the impression - by your immediate attack on me - that you support the policy of this group.
Yes because I didn't state in my first post here that I am against this policy, and merely because I am against your racism it makes me a supporter of it, I understand completely.
 
where in my post dod you find I say ALL Israelis think this way?

You were stating that, and I quote "Israeli Jews wsh to preserve their separateness from others (etc)", you were attributing attitudes to the group known as the "Israeli Jews" and has hence as Don told you made an over-generalization of a group of people.
From the same reason exactly, saying that "Afro-Americans are theieves and rapists" is racist due to the fact that you're attributing attitudes to the entire group, using the term "Afro-Americans" conclusively and not pointing at a specific group of people within this racial group.

By not referring specifically to a group within the racial group known as the Israeli Jews you were referring attitudes conclusively to the entire group and has partaken in a generalization of a racial group based on the actions of a few, or in other words, racism.
And yet you have no evidence to show that the majority of the Israeli-Jews support those policies yet you seek evidence from the other side that the majority of the Israeli-Jews do not support such policies. It's extremely retarded.

Nevertheless, in the article they state that the settlerr community of the Nokdim settlement, the settlement whose council have made this law, is itself divided on whether such policy is right or wrong, so let alone the opinion of the rest of the Israeli Jews, those people themselves aren't all for that policy.
We also have in the article the comment from the Israeli association for civil rights stating its opposition to the policy and stating that it consists of racial and religious discrimination.
 
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