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Liberal Ideas For America?

F41

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OK Liberals, How about sharing your Ideas on how to improve our security, our economy, and our schools? Here is you opportunity to let your agendas be heard. Show us Conservatives and Centrist what you have to offer America and the world.
 

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ThePhoenix said:
OK Liberals, How about sharing your Ideas on how to improve our security, our economy, and our schools? Here is you opportunity to let your agendas be heard. Show us Conservatives and Centrist what you have to offer America and the world.
I don't know if you'd consider me a "liberal" but here goes:

SECURITY - Regime change in Iran (but not a long occupation), withdrawal from Iraq, spend Homeland Security funds where they're actually needed, stop giving foreign aid money to our enemies, and a nationwide project to make alternative energy commercially viable.

ECONOMY - Massive spending cuts to balance the budget, completely eliminate pork barrel spending, more pressure on China to appreciate its currency.

SCHOOLS - Allow school choice, attach education money to students rather than schools, stop teaching religious garbage in biology classes.
 

Navy Pride

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Kandahar said:
I don't know if you'd consider me a "liberal" but here goes:

SECURITY - Regime change in Iran (but not a long occupation), withdrawal from Iraq, spend Homeland Security funds where they're actually needed, stop giving foreign aid money to our enemies, and a nationwide project to make alternative energy commercially viable.

ECONOMY - Massive spending cuts to balance the budget, completely eliminate pork barrel spending, more pressure on China to appreciate its currency.

SCHOOLS - Allow school choice, attach education money to students rather than schools, stop teaching religious garbage in biology classes.
Regime Change in Iran: How?

Withdraw from Iraq: Just like Nam, Cut and Run

Economy: Cuts where?

Schools: How do you get around the NEA?

Its easy to say those things but its hard to get it done........
 

Kandahar

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Navy Pride said:
Regime Change in Iran: How?
A shock-and-awe campaign, followed by an invasion, then an occupation lasting no more than six months.

Navy Pride said:
Withdraw from Iraq: Just like Nam, Cut and Run
The costs of staying in Iraq grossly exceed any benefits. It wouldn't have to be a complete withdraw from Iraq though; we could just withdraw into our own military bases in Iraq.

Navy Pride said:
Economy: Cuts where?
We can make a lot of across-the-board cuts. We especially need to cut/privatize entitlements like SS and medicare. We should be working to completely eliminate useless corporate welfare and agricultural subsidies.

Navy Pride said:
Schools: How do you get around the NEA?
By getting rid of the US Department of Education and letting the states deal with it however they want. Arnold Schwarzenegger had the right idea, by proposing to make unions get the permission of their members before spending their dues on political purposes. We just need some states to actually succeed in passing that.
 

dragonslayer

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ThePhoenix said:
OK Liberals, How about sharing your Ideas on how to improve our security, our economy, and our schools? Here is you opportunity to let your agendas be heard. Show us Conservatives and Centrist what you have to offer America and the world.
Calling all non informed neocons. World War 2,--liberal roosevelt, World war 1--Wilson, liberal, Korean War--Liberal Truman, , Vietnam war, liberal Johnson. Yugoslavia, liberal the list is endless of Democrats leaders in War. what the heck are you talking about? At least they did not fight wars for the profit of Exxon and Haliburton as Bush is doing. First we need to concentrate on the war on terror. Remember the 9/11 commission reported that Iraq had nothing to do with El Quaida.

School are going to cost money. If Neocons don't want to pay taxes, and have massive tax cuts, how can we support schools?

when did we have the best economy in the last 30 years? NOw who was president? Clinton --- A Liberal Democrat.

Ford, laying off workers and closing plants, as is GM. as is Hewlett Packard, as is Boeing, as is, as is, as are hundred of local plants across the uSA. Jobs are up for Americans at McDonalds, Burger King, Tacobell, etc.


How come that Neocons lie so darn much? they use the Cheney role model.
 

Navy Pride

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Kandahar said:
A shock-and-awe campaign, followed by an invasion, then an occupation lasting no more than six months.



The costs of staying in Iraq grossly exceed any benefits. It wouldn't have to be a complete withdraw from Iraq though; we could just withdraw into our own military bases in Iraq.



We can make a lot of across-the-board cuts. We especially need to cut/privatize entitlements like SS and medicare. We should be working to completely eliminate useless corporate welfare and agricultural subsidies.



By getting rid of the US Department of Education and letting the states deal with it however they want. Arnold Schwarzenegger had the right idea, by proposing to make unions get the permission of their members before spending their dues on political purposes. We just need some states to actually succeed in passing that.
1. When your in a war things don't always go as planned.......

2. That remains to be seen and it depends who you ask.....

3. So your for cutting entitlement programs.....Ain't gonna happen......

4. I agree but you will never get rid of the NEA as long as the dems are in their back pockets.............

Most of the problems money wise you mentioned would go away if you scarpped the IRS and tax system and go to a straight user tax........
 

Red_Dave

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Kandahar said:
A shock-and-awe campaign, followed by an invasion, then an occupation lasting no more than six months.
I dont think repeating the same tatics of americas last two invasions would be a good idea. What america did in both afgainistain and iraq was effectively flatten these countrys in the name of humanitarian intervention. A better tactic would have been to Arm/fund the Kurds and the northern alliance enableing them to overthrow the Taliban and Ba'athists. This would save flattening these countrys and being an unpopular ocupation force.
 

Kandahar

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Navy Pride said:
1. When your in a war things don't always go as planned.......
Very true, but we wouldn't have to stay and fight an insurgency. We'd just need clearly defined objectives from the start: To end Iran's nuclear program and overthrow the regime so that this can't happen again.

We wouldn't need a prolonged occupation to fight the inevitable Iranian insurgency or help them establish democracy. We can hopefully establish some kind of order in the six months (give or take a couple months) that we were there, then turn the keys over to whatever form of government seemed the most likely to succeed.

Navy Pride said:
2. That remains to be seen and it depends who you ask.....
If you ask me, any possible remaining rationale for being in Iraq dissipated when it became clear that Iran was developing nuclear weapons and had no intention of stopping. Iran is now a much bigger security threat. If for some reason our troops are stretched too thin to fight both (which I honestly can't say), it's more important to fight the Iranian regime than the Iraqi insurgency.

Navy Pride said:
3. So your for cutting entitlement programs.....Ain't gonna happen......
It'll happen eventually, one way or the other. The question is whether we want to do it now while it's relatively cheap, or wait until we have to do it.

Navy Pride said:
4. I agree but you will never get rid of the NEA as long as the dems are in their back pockets.............
I disagree. Arnold Schwarzenegger came close to doing it in a deep blue state...and that was with a direct vote. In many other states, the state government could do it without asking the people.

All it takes is a law saying that unions have to ask their members for permission to spend their dues on political purposes (over 80% of union members have opted out of this in places where some variation of this law exists). As soon as this happens, no one will be in the NEA's back pocket because they won't have any influence anymore.

Of course, a lot of this is a moot point as long as we have an oppressive US Department of Education calling the shots instead of state governments.

Navy Pride said:
Most of the problems money wise you mentioned would go away if you scarpped the IRS and tax system and go to a straight user tax........
Sales tax harms the poor and makes some purchases (houses/cars/tuition) completely unaffordable for a lot of people. A flat income tax would work though.
 
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Kandahar

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Red_Dave said:
I dont think repeating the same tatics of americas last two invasions would be a good idea. What america did in both afgainistain and iraq was effectively flatten these countrys in the name of humanitarian intervention. A better tactic would have been to Arm/fund the Kurds and the northern alliance enableing them to overthrow the Taliban and Ba'athists. This would save flattening these countrys and being an unpopular ocupation force.
In the case of Iraq, that may have been a good strategy. Saddam Hussein was brutal, but he wasn't an imminent threat to anyone except the Iraqis. But in the case of Iran, we have a ticking clock and we simply don't have time to wait for outsiders to overthrow the government.
 
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stankeybutt

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Security- Stop balancing the budget and giving 70% to the the military for war, 20% to big business, and 10% to Social Security.
Use the money that is being wasted on this war for better security
but...due to the location of the United States...I don't believe that
the United States will ever be able to secure any part of it
completely. The U.S. has gotten in bed with so many of the wrong
groups of people and has sold its planes, ships, ports, nuclear intelligence, etc...to those throughout the middle east...she cannot be securred from any form of a terroristic attack.

Economy-Bush came into office with a balanced budget that had been balanced by Clinton...Bush came into office with a surplus due to Clinton
balancing the U.S. budget...effectively. Bush will have to stop giving that
gift of a lower tax to the 1% of the wealthy... and tax them at the same
rate everyon else is taxed at. Take that extra money and balance the
budget...get rid of this deficit he and the republican administration has created...it's pathetic. They are supposed to be so much more smarter than the dems...:doh

Schools-The War in Iraq gets a billion dollar budget monthly not annually...monthly. End the "So-called" war. The war that the president...after getting Saddam, taking over the country, killing millions, stealing oil, etc...still isn't sure if he has won or not...that war.

..there you go...cut the military budget and fund the schools.

Bush is the president...from Texas...Texas teachers are the lowest paid teacher in the United States of America. :3oops:

The school finance budget never got balanced last year (2005) it is still not balanced...the Supreme Court is giving Texas unil June 2006 to balance it or no schools will open for the August 2006 school year....just what the republican party needed...right?:3oops:
 
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-Demosthenes-

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Kandahar said:
A shock-and-awe campaign, followed by an invasion, then an occupation lasting no more than six months.
Allow for tens of thousands of casualties rather than thousands. Sounds great. And then leave rigth after the invasion right? Let the ruined system fall prey to a whol new dicatorship.

Hurrah for quick fixes. Lets leave Iraq right now, throw money at all of our other problems and the world will be perfect.
 

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-Demosthenes- said:
Allow for tens of thousands of casualties rather than thousands. Sounds great.
There wouldn't have to be any casualties if not for Iranian belligerence. And it's just speculation on your part that there would be more casualties from a quick war than a long war.

-Demosthenes- said:
And then leave rigth after the invasion right? Let the ruined system fall prey to a whol new dicatorship.
Maybe, maybe not. Iran certainly has more democratic tendencies than any other country in the region. And as long as the new dicatorship stayed away from terrorism and nukes, there's no reason America would have to be its enemy.

-Demosthenes- said:
Hurrah for quick fixes. Lets leave Iraq right now, throw money at all of our other problems and the world will be perfect.
We need a quick fix with Iran. It's absolutely unacceptable to allow them to get nukes, and we don't have the resources for another prolonged occupation.
 

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Kandahar said:
There wouldn't have to be any casualties if not for Iranian belligerence. And it's just speculation on your part that there would be more casualties from a quick war than a long war.
Superior force attacking a inferior force in a defensive position. Rushes in combat against the defensive inferior force will create more casualties than a steadier and slower approach would.

Kandahar said:
And as long as the new dicatorship stayed away from terrorism and nukes, there's no reason America would have to be its enemy.
Yes, dictators are cool

Kandahar said:
We need a quick fix with Iran. It's absolutely unacceptable to allow them to get nukes, and we don't have the resources for another prolonged occupation.
Since a quick fix will kill more people and install another dictator in the place of the current, I think that it's a bad idea.
 

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-Demosthenes- said:
Superior force attacking a inferior force in a defensive position. Rushes in combat against the defensive inferior force will create more casualties than a steadier and slower approach would.
You have absolutely no evidence or basis for that opinion. Speculation is fine, as long as you admit that you are basing that opinion on absolutely nothing.

-Demosthenes- said:
Yes, dictators are cool
So you're saying that the United States should overthrow every dictator in the world just because we feel like it?

-Demosthenes- said:
Since a quick fix will kill more people and install another dictator in the place of the current, I think that it's a bad idea.
1. It's just speculation that a quick fix will kill more people.
2. It's just speculation that another dictator (who is as bad as the theocracy) will take power.
3. What's your alternative suggestion? Let the ayatollahs get nukes, or spend trillions of dollars occupying Iran for years?
 

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Kandahar said:
You have absolutely no evidence or basis for that opinion. Speculation is fine, as long as you admit that you are basing that opinion on absolutely nothing.
It's military theory. Like it or not, military strategy will be based on military intelligence from studying hundreds of years of military history.

A Superior force attacks a defensive inferior force, assuming it is not a surprise attack and that the inferior force will not receive reinforcements, generally the slower the better for the superior force in terms of casualties. With almost a million and a half soldiers in the armed forces we could have had enough people to take Iraq in very little time, probably days. Instead we take weeks, why is this? To avoid casualties. Read a military history/theory book before you start calling it "speculation."

Kandahar said:
So you're saying that the United States should overthrow every dictator in the world just because we feel like it?
I guess you do like dictators. Maybe you should move to N. Korea or something, I think that you would like it there.

Kandahar said:
1. It's just speculation that a quick fix will kill more people.
2. It's just speculation that another dictator (who is as bad as the theocracy) will take power.
It's just "speculation" that if I throw something up it will come back down, but it will fall down anyway. These "quick fixes" have killed people for hundreds of year, it'll happen again. Countries that become destroyed or poor don't turn to totalitarian style governments? China after WWII? Eastern European countries after WWII? It's just "speculation" that totalitarian style governments are not good?

When "speculation" is based on history then it becomes a very good predictor.

Read something.
 

Kandahar

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-Demosthenes- said:
It's military theory. Like it or not, military strategy will be based on military intelligence from studying hundreds of years of military history.

A Superior force attacks a defensive inferior force, assuming it is not a surprise attack and that the inferior force will not receive reinforcements, generally the slower the better for the superior force in terms of casualties. With almost a million and a half soldiers in the armed forces we could have had enough people to take Iraq in very little time, probably days. Instead we take weeks, why is this? To avoid casualties. Read a military history/theory book before you start calling it "speculation."
Funny, as most military personnel have reached the diametrical opposite conclusion about Iraq. The biggest flaw was that we DIDN'T go in with overwhelming force. But I guess you know more about military strategy than they do.

-Demosthenes- said:
I guess you do like dictators. Maybe you should move to N. Korea or something, I think that you would like it there.
Way to duck the question. Here it is again: So you're saying that the United States should overthrow every dictator in the world just because we feel like it?

-Demosthenes- said:
It's just "speculation" that if I throw something up it will come back down, but it will fall down anyway. These "quick fixes" have killed people for hundreds of year, it'll happen again.
Another blind assertion with no supporting evidence.

-Demosthenes- said:
Countries that become destroyed or poor don't turn to totalitarian style governments? China after WWII? Eastern European countries after WWII? It's just "speculation" that totalitarian style governments are not good?
There are plenty of counterexamples as well, of war-torn countries adopting democratic governments. Furthermore, totalitarianism is not the same as dictatorship. And there's no inherent reason that any particular form of government would be more or less likely to fill a power vacuum than any other. Since the Iranian people have more democratic tendencies than elsewhere in that part of the world, it is likely (although not certain) that democracy could take hold there.

-Demosthenes- said:
When "speculation" is based on history then it becomes a very good predictor.

Read something.
Way to duck the question. Here it is again: What's your alternative suggestion? Let the ayatollahs get nukes, or spend trillions of dollars occupying Iran for years?
 

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Kandahar said:
Funny, as most military personnel have reached the diametrical opposite conclusion about Iraq. The biggest flaw was that we DIDN'T go in with overwhelming force. But I guess you know more about military strategy than they do.
Who is they? You said that not going in overwhelming force was the biggest flaw. "Overwhelming force" has nothing to do with speed, it's obvious that we should going in with a superior force if we can.

That reply is just one big long confusing mess.

Kandahar said:
Way to duck the question. Here it is again: So you're saying that the United States should overthrow every dictator in the world just because we feel like it?
Way to strawman dude. No one ever said "because we feel like it." I could easily say you want to keep them "because you feel like it."

Why do I have to defend my anti-dictator position? Even more concerning is why do you have a pro-dictator position?

Dictators are oppressive to their people, have been in almost every totalitarian style government. Dictators kill their political opponents and other political prisoners. These people are not criminals, merely protesters, reporters, and sometimes out spoken political figures. They are historically violent to surrounding countries. They always collapse violently unless an outside force fixes it.

Kandahar said:
Another blind assertion with no supporting evidence.
It's only happened a billion times in the past.

US history: quick fixes gone wrong:

-Just use the land, Indians won't care, how many white dude-Indian wars were there? For how long? F***.
-Send a petition to old King George, yeah right.
-We don't need to talk about slavery, lets just put some frick 3/5's deal in with some 20 years thing and then... Civil War 80 years later.
-Alien and Sedition Acts, goodbye federalists.
-We don't need to regulate the economy in the industrial age, whoops.
-Post WWI: Lets just take all of Germany's money, they don't need it.
-Coleridge call in debts in Europe, can you say WWII in 10 years?
-Japans quick fix: Pearl Harbor, whoops.
-and then some more stuff, I'll continue tomorrow if you want.


Kandahar said:
There are plenty of counterexamples as well
Yeah, there all over the place, that's why you named so many.

Oh wait, you didn't :doh

Kandahar said:
Way to duck the question. Here it is again: What's your alternative suggestion? Let the ayatollahs get nukes, or spend trillions of dollars occupying Iran for years?
Invade, but how? Quick, more casualties, slow, more money.

Do you like people or money better?
 
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