Let's try to be fair in judging trump's killing over 100,000 Americans

[The AntiDonald]

Community spread and death happened and continues to happen because the American people have chosen not to do what is necessary or mandated by their State and local leaders no matter what anyone says. That has nothing to do with Trump.

It has everything to do with Trump. Had he come out early and strong about safety guidelines, his loyal base would have believed his every word and done what he said. Instead he has done the opposite. So were stuck with 40% of Americans refusing science and recommendations as is their dear leader.

Don't tell me Trump has nothing to do with the exploding Covid problem or many of the deaths. not to mention the failing economy and right wing-nuts trying to kidnap and kill elected leaders. Trumps as guilty as they are.

 

[Logical1]

You mean as fair as the title of this thread?

 

[veritas1]

With a 3% +/- death rate which is what we have with Covid, that's 1.8 million deaths if 60 million get infected. That was how well Obama and Biden contained H1N1 swine flu. They just dodged a bullet that it wasn't something more deadly.



If it was something more deadly, Obama/Biden would have handled it better than Trump. If Trump were handling H1N1, he would have done worse than Obama/Biden. If you “how well” would have been 1.8M deaths, I can better say 12,469 deaths because that was, literally, “…how well Obama and Biden contained H1N1 swine flu”.

Your “IF” uses figures that do not take into consideration what will most likely be in this pure conjecture/fantasy/fake scenario of yours. COVID death rate will highly unlikely end up at 3%. It has gone down, never up in any single day (as best I can read), since May. As of 10/18, the death rate was 2.8%. You could just as well had done your fake scenario on 5/21 when the death rate was 5.91% and it would have made just as much nonsense then as now. If you used the new death rate, being new deaths % of new case, the rolling 7-day avg is 1.28%, which is an indication of where the death rate is going, which Fauci estimated would end-up being 0.5-1.0%, or the median of 0.75%. The new death rate goes up and down with the “waves”, but overall trends down.

Even if you plugged-in figures more indicative of what will/should be in your fantastical scenario, this pandemic is no where near over. Cases and deaths are increasing again. Red states are ignoring the virus, where cases/deaths are skyrocketing, and opening with no or few guidelines. FL has no guidelines and even has a state requirement that no business can require mask.

You don’t have the evidence to support what you say. And, if Obama/Biden handled COVID as well as they did H1N1 by following the advice of scientist and med/health pros, they would have done better than Trump, who did not do so. That’s “…how well Obama and Biden contained H1N1 swine flu”.

Great, then if the Covid death rate is constantly shrinking, you have even less to whine about concerning Trump. Oh, and the "experts" have never been consistent. WHO said initially that the virus wasn't easily transmitted. Fauci echoed them. They were skeptical of masks and so was Fauci. Then they both changed direction 180 degrees. So what does that have to do with Trump? If the so called experts change their position constantly, how can anyone rely on them with any confidence? The answer is that they can't.

It has also been shown pretty conclusively that the lockdown has NOT worked. The most locked down states and countries have the worst performances and that isn't even taking depression, alcoholism, domestic violence and suicide into consideration. BTW, if Obama followed the "scientists and med/health pros" why did 60 million people get infected? Either Obama/Biden didn't follow them or they were handing out useless advice.

 

[ludin]

It's not being sarcastic really. It is an overstatement to say that trump's INTENT was to kill masses of Americans, just because he gets a kick out of it or made money from it.

Here's how I see his wrong right now.

As has so often been pointed out, trump is a sociopath and a pathological liar. That's repeated here for explanation. It means he's not capable of caring about others being killed or hurt. He can only care about how that helps or hurts him. And the truth has no value for him itself.

So what I think happened is, trump was given the facts about how bad the virus was, as he told Woodward.

But all he was able to care about was, it was bad news that could make him look bad, hurt his ratings. He didn't want to be a 'bad news' doom and gloom president. That wasn't his idea of being 'the greatest president ever' as he thinks with such incredible delusion.

And so, he did all he's able to, like a child, and just chose to say what he thought would make him look good at the time. How many times have you seen it said that that's who he is - transactional, why he contradicts what he just said so much, because he just says anything to 'win the moment'.

And what 'won the moment' for him was to say the virus was not dangerous, well under control, would be over soon. Not to say, 'this is a huge disaster'. And that's what he did, incapable of understanding the harm it would cause, incapable of caring about it.

In other words, what I'm saying is, the issue is that he is incompetent to be president - lacking the mental basic functions of a human being to handle a crisis like this. His incompetence to understand policy impacts or care about them, to care about anything other than his ratings moment to moment, led to the president being like a ship captain who couldn't stand to say 'avoid the iceberg' and sunk the ship.

I don't think trump had 'evil' intent probably, and even saying it was selfish - which it was - misses the point that his mental problems left him unable to do any better. If a ship captain with no arms wasn't able to steer the ship safely, it's true that that was the problem, but just saying 'he didn't steer the ship safely' wouldn't make clear why.

So, I think that's what happened, and how he is to blame. The virus arrived, and as someone utterly unfit for almost anything, he reacted based on his concern of how it made him look, and did what he thought he should, and just said what he thought would make him look good, not really able to act competently, to listen to the experts and their bad news for the country.

There's an old saying, 'when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail'. And trump's pretty much only skill has been to BS about problems. See problem, deny and BS. And it's the same reaction he had to the virus, except the cost was far higher than spinning his bankruptcy, or trump university, or his crimes paying off mistresses, and so on. Deny and BS.

trump hasn't killed anyone yet another flush thread from you.

 

[bluesmoke]

Great, then if the Covid death rate is constantly shrinking, you have even less to whine about concerning Trump. Oh, and the "experts" have never been consistent. WHO said initially that the virus wasn't easily transmitted. Fauci echoed them. They were skeptical of masks and so was Fauci. Then they both changed direction 180 degrees. So what does that have to do with Trump? If the so called experts change their position constantly, how can anyone rely on them with any confidence? The answer is that they can't.

It has also been shown pretty conclusively that the lockdown has NOT worked. The most locked down states and countries have the worst performances and that isn't even taking depression, alcoholism, domestic violence and suicide into consideration. BTW, if Obama followed the "scientists and med/health pros" why did 60 million people get infected? Either Obama/Biden didn't follow them or they were handing out useless advice.

A low death rate does not mean fewer deaths. It just means a lower % of those infected die. If it’s a highly contagious disease, or a disease for which response isn’t working, the death toll simply keeps climbing. The latter is the case in the US and largely Europe. That Trump did not echo the advice of the professionals regarding guidelines and lead by example, many states did not employ guidelines, reopened too early w/o guidelines, and are now doing it again and the people don’t follow them anyway because they believe in Trump, not the scientist. They are deluded deniers like Trump and you. As Fauci and the pros predicted, we are now going into the “flu” season when people go inside and are more likely to infect and be infected and the numbers reflect that fact.

Fauci only tells us what the science tells him. Early on, there was no indication of the need for mask wearing nor that the virus was highly infectious. Fauci never said “Don’t wear mask”. He said in a March 60 Minutes interview “Right now in the United States people should not be walking around with masks … You should think of healthcare providers who are needing them and the people who are ill.”. What Fauci said had a time constraint and the qualification of the greater need of what limited supply of masks available for front-line workers and those ill with the virus. What Fauci said was consistent with what was already said by the WHO, CDC, Surgeon General’s Office and the head of the Corona Virus Task Force, VP Mike Pence. On Apr 3, the CDC recommended face coverings and Trump refused to wear one. So, why do you condemn Fauci for saying what he did but not Trump for refusing to support wearing face covering?

No, experts don’t change their position constantly but for the science. You don’t follow that science. Or, do you?

Lockdowns don't work if they and the guidelines are not followed, which Trump recommended. Trump supported defying lockdowns and not following guidelines.

(cont'd on next post)

 

[bluesmoke]

Great, then if the Covid death rate is constantly shrinking, you have even less to whine about concerning Trump. Oh, and the "experts" have never been consistent. WHO said initially that the virus wasn't easily transmitted. Fauci echoed them. They were skeptical of masks and so was Fauci. Then they both changed direction 180 degrees. So what does that have to do with Trump? If the so called experts change their position constantly, how can anyone rely on them with any confidence? The answer is that they can't.

It has also been shown pretty conclusively that the lockdown has NOT worked. The most locked down states and countries have the worst performances and that isn't even taking depression, alcoholism, domestic violence and suicide into consideration. BTW, if Obama followed the "scientists and med/health pros" why did 60 million people get infected? Either Obama/Biden didn't follow them or they were handing out useless advice.

(cont'd from prior post)

You just make stuff up. Following are the top 10 states with the highest number of cases per capita:

#	USA	Tot Cases per 1M pop
State Rank	1M pop
1​	North Dakota	47,160​
2​	South Dakota	42,052​
3​	Louisiana	38,477​
4​	Mississippi	38,263​
5​	Alabama	36,898​
6​	Florida	35,934​
7​	Iowa	35,793​
8​	Tennessee	35,365​
9​	Arkansas	34,507​
10​	Georgia	32,754​

How many “lockdown” states do you see? How many blue states do you see? How many have Dem govs? Can you count them?

Obama followed science advice. Otherwise, it would have been much worse. The virus broke-out in the US before spreading to Europe and other countries. That the US was able to contain the virus so well so that other countries did not get so many infections speaks well of the US containment. It is only logical that had Trump been prez and not followed science, it could only have been worse. Just as its been worse with COVID because Trump flaunts science. That’s a fact.

Do you ever bother with the work of research to find out if what you say is true or false?

 

[veritas1]

(cont'd from prior post)

You just make stuff up. Following are the top 10 states with the highest number of cases per capita:

#	USA	Tot Cases per 1M pop
State Rank	1M pop
1​	North Dakota	47,160​
2​	South Dakota	42,052​
3​	Louisiana	38,477​
4​	Mississippi	38,263​
5​	Alabama	36,898​
6​	Florida	35,934​
7​	Iowa	35,793​
8​	Tennessee	35,365​
9​	Arkansas	34,507​
10​	Georgia	32,754​

How many “lockdown” states do you see? How many blue states do you see? How many have Dem govs? Can you count them?

Obama followed science advice. Otherwise, it would have been much worse. The virus broke-out in the US before spreading to Europe and other countries. That the US was able to contain the virus so well so that other countries did not get so many infections speaks well of the US containment. It is only logical that had Trump been prez and not followed science, it could only have been worse. Just as its been worse with COVID because Trump flaunts science. That’s a fact.

Do you ever bother with the work of research to find out if what you say is true or false?

Five blue heavily locked down states account for almost 40% of the deaths. The metric we should care about is not how many people get sick and recover but how many die after they are sick and, in that department. we are superior to every country in the EU and Canada. That is a fact. Also, children and healthy adults under 65 have virtually no chance of dying from Covid. Recovery rate is well over 99%. That is a fact.

How can 60+ million H1N1 cases be called containment? Obama dodged a bullet. Had H1N1 been more lethal, we'd have had more deaths than Coviid by a significant multiple. So, if he followed science, it was bad science.

As for lockdowns, who cares if winter is coming when people have been locked down all spring and summer? Lockdowns don't work and they add numerous other problems like alcoholism, drug abuse, depression, domestic strife and suicide not to mention financial ruin. In the long run we will come to recognize that the lockdown has been a disaster. We should have taken all measures to protect the elderly and the compromised and let the young and healthy carry on the business of the nation. Instead, we gave in to unbridled fear and that always has a bad outcome. Biden wants to double down on it. He'll have us closed for years to come if he somehow wins and by the time he's done we won't have much to return to.

 

[bluesmoke]

Five blue heavily locked down states account for almost 40% of the deaths. The metric we should care about is not how many people get sick and recover but how many die after they are sick and, in that department. we are superior to every country in the EU and Canada. That is a fact. Also, children and healthy adults under 65 have virtually no chance of dying from Covid. Recovery rate is well over 99%. That is a fact.

How can 60+ million H1N1 cases be called containment? Obama dodged a bullet. Had H1N1 been more lethal, we'd have had more deaths than Coviid by a significant multiple. So, if he followed science, it was bad science.

As for lockdowns, who cares if winter is coming when people have been locked down all spring and summer? Lockdowns don't work and they add numerous other problems like alcoholism, drug abuse, depression, domestic strife and suicide not to mention financial ruin. In the long run we will come to recognize that the lockdown has been a disaster. We should have taken all measures to protect the elderly and the compromised and let the young and healthy carry on the business of the nation. Instead, we gave in to unbridled fear and that always has a bad outcome. Biden wants to double down on it. He'll have us closed for years to come if he somehow wins and by the time he's done we won't have much to return to.

The only reason for any extent of failure in lockdowns was that the given states did not follow guidelines and instead followed Trump and Red state govs who openly disdained wearing masks, social distancing and following reopening guidelines. We can carry on the business and social enjoyment of the country if guidelines were followed in spite of Trump and the Red state govs.

All you can blame on the Obama handling of the 2009 pandemic is “if”, conjecture and fantasy. You can’t just plug in the ratios or numbers of one to the other and say with any degree of certainty or confidence that such will be the case as you say. As it is, I picked your scenario apart right away, just for the fact that your numbers were plain wrong.

We are no where near the end of this pandemic. States like FL, TX and other Red states are just starting to move towards much worse death ratios. Give them time, they will catch up. That’s the direction they’re going.

You say “…we are superior to every country in the EU and Canada.” in death ratio. What nonsense.

Here’s the top 10 worst deaths per 1M pop countries out of 217 countries:

# Rank	Country,	Deaths/
	1M pop
1​	San Marino	1,237​
2​	Peru	1,031​
3​	Belgium	925​
4​	Andorra	893​
5​	Spain	743​
6​	Brazil	738​
7​	Bolivia	736​
8​	Chile	727​
9​	Ecuador	708​
10​	USA	695​
Source: worldometer

How many Euro countries do you see that are worse than #10 USA? Not all, as you said. And two of them are the tiniest countries of San Marino and Andorra. Do you see Canada as being worse than the US?

You really don’t do the work of research that respects an honest, forthright debate. You’ve been proved either flat-out wrong, or your thinking is premature or illogical, as I've explained.

See you on another thread.

 

[apdst]

His intent was POLITICAL. He CHOSE to allow folks to drop like flies, SO THAT, he could blame his political rivals, and gain. That is INTENT.

Trump didn't kill anybody...lol

 

[Phys251]

It's not being sarcastic really. It is an overstatement to say that trump's INTENT was to kill masses of Americans, just because he gets a kick out of it or made money from it.

Here's how I see his wrong right now.

As has so often been pointed out, trump is a sociopath and a pathological liar. That's repeated here for explanation. It means he's not capable of caring about others being killed or hurt. He can only care about how that helps or hurts him. And the truth has no value for him itself.

So what I think happened is, trump was given the facts about how bad the virus was, as he told Woodward.

But all he was able to care about was, it was bad news that could make him look bad, hurt his ratings. He didn't want to be a 'bad news' doom and gloom president. That wasn't his idea of being 'the greatest president ever' as he thinks with such incredible delusion.

And so, he did all he's able to, like a child, and just chose to say what he thought would make him look good at the time. How many times have you seen it said that that's who he is - transactional, why he contradicts what he just said so much, because he just says anything to 'win the moment'.

And what 'won the moment' for him was to say the virus was not dangerous, well under control, would be over soon. Not to say, 'this is a huge disaster'. And that's what he did, incapable of understanding the harm it would cause, incapable of caring about it.

In other words, what I'm saying is, the issue is that he is incompetent to be president - lacking the mental basic functions of a human being to handle a crisis like this. His incompetence to understand policy impacts or care about them, to care about anything other than his ratings moment to moment, led to the president being like a ship captain who couldn't stand to say 'avoid the iceberg' and sunk the ship.

I don't think trump had 'evil' intent probably, and even saying it was selfish - which it was - misses the point that his mental problems left him unable to do any better. If a ship captain with no arms wasn't able to steer the ship safely, it's true that that was the problem, but just saying 'he didn't steer the ship safely' wouldn't make clear why.

So, I think that's what happened, and how he is to blame. The virus arrived, and as someone utterly unfit for almost anything, he reacted based on his concern of how it made him look, and did what he thought he should, and just said what he thought would make him look good, not really able to act competently, to listen to the experts and their bad news for the country.

There's an old saying, 'when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail'. And trump's pretty much only skill has been to BS about problems. See problem, deny and BS. And it's the same reaction he had to the virus, except the cost was far higher than spinning his bankruptcy, or trump university, or his crimes paying off mistresses, and so on. Deny and BS.

I don't think that trump intentionally murdered over 200,000 Americans. He'd have to hand off a system of genocide to Stephen Miller, who might actually know how to run it.

But trump unquestionably has cost hundreds of thousands of Americans their lives due to his hubris and terrible leadership. He destroyed the Obama-Biden pandemic response team, and he was being warned by the lead scientists all the way back in February that COVID-19 was a serious threat. He was more obsessed with his reelection chances than he was with saving his citizens' lives.

The man hasn't a shred of decency or empathy, not even for his most ardent supporters, whom he sees as nothing more than pawns in his games.

 

[Phys251]

Five blue heavily locked down states account for almost 40% of the deaths.

You seem smug about this for some bizarre reason.

The metric we should care about is not how many people get sick and recover but how many die after they are sick

Bullshit. You have no expertise here. You have no clue about the serious, long-term symptoms that many COVID-19 survivors suffer.

Take a seat and let those who actually know what they're talking about speak.

 

[Lisa]

Community spread and death happened and continues to happen because the American people have chosen not to do what is necessary or mandated by their State and local leaders no matter what anyone says. That has nothing to do with Trump.

We are a nation so Trump and the GOP cannot now attempt to blame their failure on the 50 individual governors to do what they refused to do on a national level. DeWine didnt a good job, but there should have been a mask mandate long before there was.

 

[veritas1]

The only reason for any extent of failure in lockdowns was that the given states did not follow guidelines and instead followed Trump and Red state govs who openly disdained wearing masks, social distancing and following reopening guidelines. We can carry on the business and social enjoyment of the country if guidelines were followed in spite of Trump and the Red state govs.

All you can blame on the Obama handling of the 2009 pandemic is “if”, conjecture and fantasy. You can’t just plug in the ratios or numbers of one to the other and say with any degree of certainty or confidence that such will be the case as you say. As it is, I picked your scenario apart right away, just for the fact that your numbers were plain wrong.

We are no where near the end of this pandemic. States like FL, TX and other Red states are just starting to move towards much worse death ratios. Give them time, they will catch up. That’s the direction they’re going.

You say “…we are superior to every country in the EU and Canada.” in death ratio. What nonsense.

Here’s the top 10 worst deaths per 1M pop countries out of 217 countries:

# Rank	Country,	Deaths/
	1M pop
1​	San Marino	1,237​
2​	Peru	1,031​
3​	Belgium	925​
4​	Andorra	893​
5​	Spain	743​
6​	Brazil	738​
7​	Bolivia	736​
8​	Chile	727​
9​	Ecuador	708​
10​	USA	695​
Source: worldometer

How many Euro countries do you see that are worse than #10 USA? Not all, as you said. And two of them are the tiniest countries of San Marino and Andorra. Do you see Canada as being worse than the US?

You really don’t do the work of research that respects an honest, forthright debate. You’ve been proved either flat-out wrong, or your thinking is premature or illogical, as I've explained.

See you on another thread.

Read and try to understand.


Country A- Has 1 million people and 300 catch the virus and 98 die. They have 98 deaths per million.

Country B- Has 1 million people and 500 catch the virus and 98 die. They have 98 deaths per million.

Country A has a 32.6% death rate among those infected. Country B has a 19.6% death rate among those infected. Yet, using your number, they have performed equally well. That is why deaths per million is a useless number.

The US has a lower death rate per infected person, which is the number that really matters, than any country in the EU or Canada.

 

[veritas1]

You seem smug about this for some bizarre reason.



Bullshit. You have no expertise here. You have no clue about the serious, long-term symptoms that many COVID-19 survivors suffer.

Take a seat and let those who actually know what they're talking about speak.

Would you rather live where you had a 50% chance of getting the virus and a 99% chance of survival or a place where you had a 20% chance of getting the virus and a 60% chance of survival? Is this really a difficult question? If not, then you have no reason to be making silly statements like the one above.

Oh, and the fact that five blue states account for 40% of the deaths doesn't seem to matter because we aren't allowed to criticize anyone but Trump. However, places like NY, NJ, PA and MI have failed miserably and that has zero to do with Trump.

 

[Old 'N Chill]

That's weak on so many levels.

Much could have been done and yet it wasn't. There was not - and to this day - is not any national leadership. The states were not prepared. Critical supplies were not available. Distribution was god awful and remains so in some cases. State response was political and still is in a number of states. The message to all Americans was at first non-existent and was followed by lies. The lies have not stopped. DONALD TRUMP KNEW VERY EARLY ON ABOUT THE VIRUS, ITS STRENGTH AND ITS THREAT. HE CHOOSE TO DO NOTHING BUT SHUCK AND JIVE.

Trump's inaction and deception caused chaos, as it often does. Trump's inaction and deception did not unify the nation in response. His criminal failure in leadership directly caused loss of life, savage unemployment, and loss of business.

Well said, agree.

 

[Hypothetical]

You don’t remember the Administration or Fauci discouraging mask use?

and the WHO

 

[Phys251]

Would you rather live where you had a 50% chance of getting the virus and a 99% chance of survival or a place where you had a 20% chance of getting the virus and a 60% chance of survival? Is this really a difficult question? If not, then you have no reason to be making silly statements like the one above.

Oh, and the fact that five blue states account for 40% of the deaths doesn't seem to matter because we aren't allowed to criticize anyone but Trump. However, places like NY, NJ, PA and MI have failed miserably and that has zero to do with Trump.

You want to try to laysplain probability theory to me?!

Go on. This ought to be rich AF.

 

[veritas1]

You want to try to laysplain probability theory to me?!

Go on. This ought to be rich AF.

The above described scenario is not difficult to figure out, despite your apparent trouble.