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Let's try to be fair in judging trump's killing over 100,000 Americans

Craig234

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It's not being sarcastic really. It is an overstatement to say that trump's INTENT was to kill masses of Americans, just because he gets a kick out of it or made money from it.

Here's how I see his wrong right now.

As has so often been pointed out, trump is a sociopath and a pathological liar. That's repeated here for explanation. It means he's not capable of caring about others being killed or hurt. He can only care about how that helps or hurts him. And the truth has no value for him itself.

So what I think happened is, trump was given the facts about how bad the virus was, as he told Woodward.

But all he was able to care about was, it was bad news that could make him look bad, hurt his ratings. He didn't want to be a 'bad news' doom and gloom president. That wasn't his idea of being 'the greatest president ever' as he thinks with such incredible delusion.

And so, he did all he's able to, like a child, and just chose to say what he thought would make him look good at the time. How many times have you seen it said that that's who he is - transactional, why he contradicts what he just said so much, because he just says anything to 'win the moment'.

And what 'won the moment' for him was to say the virus was not dangerous, well under control, would be over soon. Not to say, 'this is a huge disaster'. And that's what he did, incapable of understanding the harm it would cause, incapable of caring about it.

In other words, what I'm saying is, the issue is that he is incompetent to be president - lacking the mental basic functions of a human being to handle a crisis like this. His incompetence to understand policy impacts or care about them, to care about anything other than his ratings moment to moment, led to the president being like a ship captain who couldn't stand to say 'avoid the iceberg' and sunk the ship.

I don't think trump had 'evil' intent probably, and even saying it was selfish - which it was - misses the point that his mental problems left him unable to do any better. If a ship captain with no arms wasn't able to steer the ship safely, it's true that that was the problem, but just saying 'he didn't steer the ship safely' wouldn't make clear why.

So, I think that's what happened, and how he is to blame. The virus arrived, and as someone utterly unfit for almost anything, he reacted based on his concern of how it made him look, and did what he thought he should, and just said what he thought would make him look good, not really able to act competently, to listen to the experts and their bad news for the country.

There's an old saying, 'when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail'. And trump's pretty much only skill has been to BS about problems. See problem, deny and BS. And it's the same reaction he had to the virus, except the cost was far higher than spinning his bankruptcy, or trump university, or his crimes paying off mistresses, and so on. Deny and BS.
 

Craig234

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What I'm saying in trump's defense is, he didn't 'mean' the harm he caused. His being a sociopath and pathological liar wouldn't be as much of a problem in other jobs. They weren't as a reality tv show actor. If he were able to run a bank, and didn't give a crap about harmful schemes, he'd fit right in, and it might be seen as making him more effective.

But president isn't like that. It DOES have great cost for the president to be so unable to handle problems well.

That's trump's blame - being unable to do the job of president, and that having the cost of over 100,000 American live so far.

His supporters don't understand this because they are under the delusion that the government is a huge evil entity, and destroying it is what's important, and trump is the guy who understands that. And do they aren't about to throw him out pretty much no matter what. Need someone to blame for the virus? Blame China, blame governors, blame mayors, blame the media.

And to be fair to voters, these flaws in trump weren't AS clear in 2016. Now they are, and it's up to voters to remove him from the office he is unfit for. trump killing American isn't like Hitler killing Jews, with hate and intent. It's more like a blind car driver running people over because he can't see them. Tragic, but the real problem is why he is driving a car, not his hating pedestrians.

You could say it's obvious a blind person shouldn't drive a car and if he chose to do so, he's at fault. You could say it's obvious someone so unfit should not be president, and he's at fault for doing so. But his problems leave him not able to understand he's not fit. He thinks he's the greatest president, because of his problems, his narcissism.

He just can't accept Obama was competent and he is not, which is why on day one he claimed his crowd size was bigger than Obama's, and today he'd say he did better with Coronavirus than Obama did with SARS.

Think I'm putting words in his mouth? “Look, he was an incompetent president, that’s all I can say. Grossly incompetent.” That is a nominee for irony of the decade award.

So the important thing is less blaming him, and more protecting the country by removing him from the office he is so dangerous in and not fit to be in. You shouldn't put a pyromaniac as fire department chief. You can blame him for the disasters, but the real issue is the mistake of putting someone unfit for the job in it.

This isn't the usual case of presidents who simply choose to do wrong because they are serving corrupt interests over the American people. This isn't trump handling the virus badly intending to kill people. It's trump only having a hammer and being asked to paint, and the result being a blank canvas with big holes.

Understanding his sickness helps show why he's not as much to blame as many think in terms of his motives, though he is to blame for the disaster.
 

Napoleon

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Community spread and death happened and continues to happen because the American people have chosen not to do what is necessary or mandated by their State and local leaders no matter what anyone says. That has nothing to do with Trump.
 

Rexedgar

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Community spread and death happened and continues to happen because the American people have chosen not to do what is necessary or mandated by their State and local leaders no matter what anyone says. That has nothing to do with Trump.

Had there been a modicum of leadership displayed, the results would be different. This is classic wanna-be tough guy behavior. All bluster and blow until something comes along that can’t be bought or bluffed away. Trump showed” feet of clay.”
 

jimbo

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It's not being sarcastic really. It is an overstatement to say that trump's INTENT was to kill masses of Americans, just because he gets a kick out of it or made money from it.

Here's how I see his wrong right now.

As has so often been pointed out, trump is a sociopath and a pathological liar. That's repeated here for explanation. It means he's not capable of caring about others being killed or hurt. He can only care about how that helps or hurts him. And the truth has no value for him itself.

So what I think happened is, trump was given the facts about how bad the virus was, as he told Woodward.

But all he was able to care about was, it was bad news that could make him look bad, hurt his ratings. He didn't want to be a 'bad news' doom and gloom president. That wasn't his idea of being 'the greatest president ever' as he thinks with such incredible delusion.

And so, he did all he's able to, like a child, and just chose to say what he thought would make him look good at the time. How many times have you seen it said that that's who he is - transactional, why he contradicts what he just said so much, because he just says anything to 'win the moment'.

And what 'won the moment' for him was to say the virus was not dangerous, well under control, would be over soon. Not to say, 'this is a huge disaster'. And that's what he did, incapable of understanding the harm it would cause, incapable of caring about it.

In other words, what I'm saying is, the issue is that he is incompetent to be president - lacking the mental basic functions of a human being to handle a crisis like this. His incompetence to understand policy impacts or care about them, to care about anything other than his ratings moment to moment, led to the president being like a ship captain who couldn't stand to say 'avoid the iceberg' and sunk the ship.

I don't think trump had 'evil' intent probably, and even saying it was selfish - which it was - misses the point that his mental problems left him unable to do any better. If a ship captain with no arms wasn't able to steer the ship safely, it's true that that was the problem, but just saying 'he didn't steer the ship safely' wouldn't make clear why.

So, I think that's what happened, and how he is to blame. The virus arrived, and as someone utterly unfit for almost anything, he reacted based on his concern of how it made him look, and did what he thought he should, and just said what he thought would make him look good, not really able to act competently, to listen to the experts and their bad news for the country.

There's an old saying, 'when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail'. And trump's pretty much only skill has been to BS about problems. See problem, deny and BS. And it's the same reaction he had to the virus, except the cost was far higher than spinning his bankruptcy, or trump university, or his crimes paying off mistresses, and so on. Deny and BS.

There is no evidence that President Trump caused the deaths of 1, let alone 100,000, Americans.
 

Napoleon

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Had there been a modicum of leadership displayed, the results would be different. This is classic wanna-be tough guy behavior. All bluster and blow until something comes along that can’t be bought or bluffed away. Trump showed” feet of clay.”

What are you basing that claim on? People knew what the facts were even if they didn’t come from Trump. He’s not responsible for the raw selfishness and individualism that permeates American culture and drives people to do whatever the hell they want to do regardless of the consequences to themselves or others even in the middle of a pandemic. He’s not accountable for the free choices of Americans that cause community spread and death.
 

chuckiechan

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It’s a simple “Act of God”. Even the Garden of Eden needed to be weeded once in awhile.

These thngs just happen, and the solutions were mostly with the state governors.
 

bluesmoke

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It is not a matter of intent. Easy to say there was none and hard to prove. It's that Trump knew the virus was deadly and did nothing about it of any necessary significance knowing more people would thus die, and as time went by indeed see those people die, proving His action/nonaction was not the appropriate response.
 

Risky Thicket

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Community spread and death happened and continues to happen because the American people have chosen not to do what is necessary or mandated by their State and local leaders no matter what anyone says. That has nothing to do with Trump.

That's weak on so many levels.

Much could have been done and yet it wasn't. There was not - and to this day - is not any national leadership. The states were not prepared. Critical supplies were not available. Distribution was god awful and remains so in some cases. State response was political and still is in a number of states. The message to all Americans was at first non-existent and was followed by lies. The lies have not stopped. DONALD TRUMP KNEW VERY EARLY ON ABOUT THE VIRUS, ITS STRENGTH AND ITS THREAT. HE CHOOSE TO DO NOTHING BUT SHUCK AND JIVE.

Trump's inaction and deception caused chaos, as it often does. Trump's inaction and deception did not unify the nation in response. His criminal failure in leadership directly caused loss of life, savage unemployment, and loss of business.
 

Napoleon

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That's weak on so many levels.

Much could have been done and yet it wasn't. There was not - and to this day - is not any national leadership. The states were not prepared. Critical supplies were not available. Distribution was god awful and remains so in some cases. State response was political and still is in a number of states. The message to all Americans was at first non-existent and was followed by lies. The lies have not stopped. DONALD TRUMP KNEW VERY EARLY ON ABOUT THE VIRUS, ITS STRENGTH AND ITS THREAT. HE CHOOSE TO DO NOTHING BUT SHUCK AND JIVE.

Trump's inaction and deception caused chaos, as it often does. Trump's inaction and deception did not unify the nation in response. His criminal failure in leadership directly caused loss of life, savage unemployment, and loss of business.

Well, here is the naked truth: The United States did not and does not have the resources or infrastructure to manage a pandemic. Never has. So what exactly did you expect Trump to do with nothing or say that would have changed the fact that health and safety of the American people was/is in their own individual hands? Neither the state or federal governments had anything worth distributing except cases of literally rotting masks that expired 10 years ago and no hospital in America had or has the capacity or supplies for a pandemic response.

And what does any of this have to do with the fact that hordes of people chose to ignore State social distancing mandates? Can you link anything Donald Trump did or didn’t do to the hundreds of college students who chose to pack a bar with no social distancing here in violation of the State mandate? Those are the people responsible for community spread and death. Not Donald Trump. You’re putting your life at risk by going anywhere there are other people because there is nothing the government or private sector can do to protect or save you. That is the truth and it’s been the known truth all along.
 
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independentusa

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Community spread and death happened and continues to happen because the American people have chosen not to do what is necessary or mandated by their State and local leaders no matter what anyone says. That has nothing to do with Trump.

THe fact that Trump told them, his followers that it was no worse than the flu and it would soon be over caused a lot of the spread. His followers followed him, not the state or local authorities. I could sen you a dozen video's of people telling stores it was their right not to war a mask nd that came directly from Trump. He was too scared to make the tough decisions that would have helped stop the spread because he was afraid of two things, it made him seem weak and if it did not work he would get the blame. So the way this country became the covid capital of the world leads directly back to Trump. That is where the buck stops. Truman said it way back then and it still holds true, if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen and that is what we need to do, get Trump out of the kitchen.
 

independentusa

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What are you basing that claim on? People knew what the facts were even if they didn’t come from Trump. He’s not responsible for the raw selfishness and individualism that permeates American culture and drives people to do whatever the hell they want to do regardless of the consequences to themselves or others even in the middle of a pandemic. He’s not accountable for the free choices of Americans that cause community spread and death.

When you know how serious this virus was and then tell your followers it is not even as bad as the flu, yes you are responsible when those followers do not believe the instructions of their local governments. And when the 40% of the country listen to Trump instead of the scientists, the spread is going to take place and the blame ends up on the shoulders of their leader in the White House. Trumpsters will never see what is right in front of their faces, but will continue to follow their cult leader
 

independentusa

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Well, here is the naked truth: The United States did not and does not have the resources or infrastructure to manage a pandemic. Never has. So what exactly did you expect Trump to do with nothing or say that would have changed the fact that health and safety of the American people was/is in their own individual hands? Neither the state or federal governments had anything worth distributing except cases of literally rotting masks that expired 10 years ago and no hospital in America had or has the capacity or supplies for a pandemic response.

And what does any of this have to do with the fact that hordes of people chose to ignore State social distancing mandates? Can you link anything Donald Trump did or didn’t do to the hundreds of college students who chose to pack a bar with no social distancing here in violation of the State mandate? Those are the people responsible for community spread and death. Not Donald Trump. You’re putting your life at risk by going anywhere there are other people because there is nothing the government or private sector can do to protect or save you. That is the truth and it’s been the known truth all along.

Trump had the plans for handling such a pandemic, but because they were made by Obama he ripped them up. And if there had been leadership at the top, we would have weathered this storm and already been back to business. Trumpsters will always make excuses for Trump's failures or blame them on someone else. Trump is now trying to blame the public's lack of knowledge on Woodward when it was the president who should have lt the nation know how serious this problem was going to be.
 

The Old Soul

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THe fact that Trump told them, his followers that it was no worse than the flu and it would soon be over caused a lot of the spread. His followers followed him, not the state or local authorities. I could sen you a dozen video's of people telling stores it was their right not to war a mask nd that came directly from Trump. He was too scared to make the tough decisions that would have helped stop the spread because he was afraid of two things, it made him seem weak and if it did not work he would get the blame. So the way this country became the covid capital of the world leads directly back to Trump. That is where the buck stops. Truman said it way back then and it still holds true, if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen and that is what we need to do, get Trump out of the kitchen.

Don't forget to mention just about every other politician and appointed official that chose to not step up and fill in the gap(s). Every last representative and congressperson who kept silent out of fear of bucking the system and/or party is just as, if not more responsible for the way it all went down. The information was there, and they either chose to disregard (making them as responsible as Trump), or just plain ignore the facts.
 

Napoleon

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When you know how serious this virus was and then tell your followers it is not even as bad as the flu, yes you are responsible when those followers do not believe the instructions of their local governments. And when the 40% of the country listen to Trump instead of the scientists, the spread is going to take place and the blame ends up on the shoulders of their leader in the White House. Trumpsters will never see what is right in front of their faces, but will continue to follow their cult leader

So when Nancy Pelosi decided to go into a salon that was supposed to be closed by State order and without a mask - that was Trump’s fault? How do you know the political affiliation of everyone who has chosen not to do what is necessary and why is Trump responsible for their choices?
 

Napoleon

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Trump had the plans for handling such a pandemic, but because they were made by Obama he ripped them up. And if there had been leadership at the top, we would have weathered this storm and already been back to business. Trumpsters will always make excuses for Trump's failures or blame them on someone else. Trump is now trying to blame the public's lack of knowledge on Woodward when it was the president who should have lt the nation know how serious this problem was going to be.

Ah yes, the infamous “plans” that were actually just a glorified survey focused primarily on providing international assistance to an epidemic elsewhere and buried in the appendix relied on a stockpile that didn’t exist here at home.
 
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Craig234

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It is not a matter of intent. Easy to say there was none and hard to prove. It's that Trump knew the virus was deadly and did nothing about it of any necessary significance knowing more people would thus die, and as time went by indeed see those people die, proving His action/nonaction was not the appropriate response.

Intent is part of the issue. Of COURSE his action/nonaction was not the appropriate response.
 

independentusa

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So when Nancy Pelosi decided to go into a salon that was supposed to be closed by State order and without a mask - that was Trump’s fault? How do you know the political affiliation of everyone who has chosen not to do what is necessary and why is Trump responsible for their choices?

Nancy Pelosi should have known better and she is at fault because she did. ThaT does not take Trump off the hook for telling his followers not to follow the dictates of their local government and that it was okay not to wear masks and to go to bars an restaurants and school and to games because the covid was not as dangerous as the flu. You and I know they, Trumps followers, believed only Trump and did as he said and they helped spread this virus. His failure to lead and even lead in the wrong direction knowing how dangerous this virus is makes him responsible for what is happening in this country.
 

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Blaming 100,000 deaths on Trump is another example of why the left should not be allowed to lead.


.
 

Napoleon

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Nancy Pelosi should have known better and she is at fault because she did. ThaT does not take Trump off the hook for telling his followers not to follow the dictates of their local government and that it was okay not to wear masks and to go to bars an restaurants and school and to games because the covid was not as dangerous as the flu. You and I know they, Trumps followers, believed only Trump and did as he said and they helped spread this virus. His failure to lead and even lead in the wrong direction knowing how dangerous this virus is makes him responsible for what is happening in this country.

The general public was and is discouraged from wearing masks because there was a shortage and medical professionals needed them. Here’s an announcement reflective of the truth:

My fellow Americans, there is a national shortage of masks because our domestic manufacturers cannot meet demand, the foreign manufacturers we rely on are subject to severe export limits, and we have discovered the National Stockpile does not contain anything useable. The Federal government must now prioritize human lives. If you are not a doctor or nurse then do not buy or wear a mask because you are expendable. That is all.

Would you really rather the President have told the truth vs what was actually communicated and anyone with two brain cells to rub together could read between the lines for the truth?
 
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nota bene

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Blaming 100,000 deaths on Trump is another example of why the left should not be allowed to lead.

Wait--you don't believe (quoting from another thread) that Trump is the "most notorious serial killer in the history of the United States"? ;)
 

tres borrachos

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So when Nancy Pelosi decided to go into a salon that was supposed to be closed by State order and without a mask - that was Trump’s fault? How do you know the political affiliation of everyone who has chosen not to do what is necessary and why is Trump responsible for their choices?

Who said it was Trump's fault?

Nancy Pelosi chose to go to a salon with only one other person in it. What does that have to do with Trump knowing how bad COVID was but lying about it?

#Hairgate
 
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