Let's Talk About Violence: What is going on?

[katzgar]

You don't learn. The left has for decades kept the American family under assault, especially black families, which the left has succeeded in all but destroying.

more made up right wing fear mongering

 

[blaxshep]

Blaming a particular political party is naïve and overly simplistic. The same pattern has happened in every major American city and the corrosion started around the same time with the disappearance of manufacturing jobs. All the investments and opportunities happening in my city now are in the white yuppie neighborhoods. Those little micro economies are doing great, very little crime in Lincoln park or Wicker Park. The same kind of changes needs to be brought to the south and west side communities. Not to mention that crime rates in Republican run cities are in the same ballpark.

I can buy into that, in reality I think the free trade agreements are what killed many of these once prosperous cities. I was shocked to see Obama going all out for the TPP.

 

[DamnYankee]

more made up right wing fear mongering

Its not fear mongering when its true.

 

[HenryChinaski]

I can buy into that, in reality I think the free trade agreements are what killed many of these once prosperous cities. I was shocked to see Obama going all out for the TPP.

I agree. My take is that it takes people with vision who are willing to take risk and front some capital in these messed up areas. Although I also feel that residents of these communities should take some responsibility and go grass roots and find ways to pump life into their communities. There are black areas here that are thriving, Bronzeville, pullman and Beverly are great examples.

 

[DamnYankee]

he rarely does reality

You don't know the meaning of reality.

 

[Visbek]

This is a discussion of VIOLENCE. NOT gun control. This about violence in general and what the problem is here in America vs other nations that have similar socioeconomics. What is done differently?

OK, let's start with some basic facts.

1) Violent crime has been falling in the US since the early 1990s.

2) Violent crime rates are higher than many other nations, but not necessarily by huge amounts. E.g. iirc the OECD average homicide rate is 2 per 100k; the US is 4.2 per 100k.

3) Perception has diverged significantly from reality.

Any time an incident of terror or a serial killer or a even down to domestic violence or rape...there is often a very real common trait: Personality disorders.

Erm...

1) The vast majority of people with mental illness, even personality disorders, aren't violent.

2) There is no particular evidence that there are higher rates of sociopathy/psychopathy/etc in the US than elsewhere.

3) Your thinking appears to be fallacious. Just because a large percentage of violent felons have personality disorders, it does NOT follow that "the majority of people with personality disorders are violent felons."

It is technically a mental illness. But it isn't the same. It is completely different. It isn't like Down syndrome.

Down syndrome isn't a mental illness.

These people appear normal, they feel normal, but they suffer from something like deep rage and antipathy.

The vast majority of people with mental illnesses look normal, from the outside.

does it make sense that we should try and treat these?

Erm... Why wouldn't we want to treat people who have a mental illness?

You do also realize there are certain limits to what we can do? We can't just up and throw people into a mental asylum, or forcibly prescribe antipsychotics, because we suspect someone might one day commit a violent felony? Mentally ill people still have rights.

Is it possible for us to have a good discussion on this without being distracted by the buzz words "Islamic terrorist" or "gun control?" What do you think?

Sure.

However, scapegoating mental illness is not an improvement. Nor is it all that new.

 

[katzgar]

Its not fear mongering when its true.

true, but it isnt true

 

[katzgar]

You don't know the meaning of reality.

I rest my case

 

[DamnYankee]

I rest my case

Right on. Please. Rest.

 

[blackjack50]

he rarely does reality

Excuse me? Who the hell are you?

 

[Casper]

This is a discussion of VIOLENCE. NOT gun control. This about violence in general and what the problem is here in America vs other nations that have similar socioeconomics. What is done differently?

I have been pondering this question and with the most recent shooting I truly feel we have a plethora of evidence to discuss this topic at length, and we don't have to continually blame "guns" for general violence problems. Any time an incident of terror or a serial killer or a even down to domestic violence or rape...there is often a very real common trait:

Borderline Personality Disorder - Personality Disorders

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/07/130712084627.htm

The terrorist with antisocial personality disorder

Personality disorders--Axis II gets short shrift

Personality disorders. It is technically a mental illness. But it isn't the same. It is completely different. It isn't like Down syndrome. These people appear normal, they feel normal, but they suffer from something like deep rage and antipathy. They may not even see humans as anything more than speed bumps between them and their goals.

So with all this evidence: does it make sense that we should try and treat these? Our insurance industry here in America is a major handicap in dealing with mental health. As the final article states: they have put up major roadblocks because of difficulty of treatment. It is a numerical bottom line. A liability concern. They are covering their own ass. And their profit.

So if you wonder why people may seem more well adjusted in another nation? Start to wonder about that. What kind of health care do you get if you have a deep rage control issue due to a past experience? How hard is it for you to get psychotherapy covered? Can you go talk to a psychologist or a psychiatrist? Is that even financially viable?

Is it possible for us to have a good discussion on this without being distracted by the buzz words "Islamic terrorist" or "gun control?" What do you think? Should we be looking at the deeper concern on violence? Are we even trying? Or do you think we are clouded by the media and politicians and the buzz words and this is just pissing in the wind?

Well done, few want to stray from the symptoms and deal with the actual issue. Just so ya know some will not like it, that means you are doing something right.

 

[blackjack50]

OK, let's start with some basic facts.

1) Violent crime has been falling in the US since the early 1990s.

2) Violent crime rates are higher than many other nations, but not necessarily by huge amounts. E.g. iirc the OECD average homicide rate is 2 per 100k; the US is 4.2 per 100k.

3) Perception has diverged significantly from reality.

That still makes us double? Are you ok with that? Are you really suggesting we do nothing? I'm not demanding gun control. In fact...I'm stating it is something else. What is wrong with demanding we actually begin to hold our government accountable when it comes to REAL solutions to problems rather than false promises?

The vast majority of people with mental illness, even personality disorders, aren't violent

I didn't say mental illness. I was clear that I was talking specifically about personality disorders. And sure, many are not violent and just become CEOs and politicians who use other ways of manipulation to control people. Why is it that so many who commit acts of violence DO have personality disorders?.

There is no particular evidence that there are higher rates of sociopathy/psychopathy/etc in the US than elsewhere

That isn't what I stated, nor was it what I implied. Can you point to where I stated that? I think I was clear...we don't treat it. Big difference in treatment vs actual rates.

3) Your thinking appears to be fallacious. Just because a large percentage of violent felons have personality disorders, it does NOT follow that "the majority of people with personality disorders are violent felons

Lol. How are you even commenting on my thinking? You don't seem to get what it is I am saying. Never once did I state people with personality disorders were violent felons. I stated that people with anti social personality disorders (and this is me giving you short version since you didn't get it try first time), are an at risk group. And the fact that MANY and MOST violent felons suffer from anti social personality disorders should serve as a clue.

Down syndrome isn't a mental illness

Replace with bipolar disorder and move on.

The vast majority of people with mental illnesses look normal, from the outside

No ****. I think I was pretty clear on that.

Erm... Why wouldn't we want to treat people who have a mental illness?

You do also realize there are certain limits to what we can do? We can't just up and throw people into a mental asylum, or forcibly prescribe antipsychotics, because we suspect someone might one day commit a violent felony? Mentally ill people still have rights

Oh dear god. This is ridiculous. Did you even read what I said? Did you even remotely read what I wrote? Where in my post did I state that we should be forcing people to do things? Let me ask you...who is actually FORCING you to go to the doctor? I bet you do though. You have access to health care and you get treatment like other Americans. And I bet your insurance company covers it?

Do you realize how LITTLE coverage you get for something like anger management or therapy?

Sure.

However, scapegoating mental illness is not an improvement. Nor is it all that new.

Whatever dude. This isn't scapegoating. We aren't talking about "mental illness."

Medscape: Medscape Access

We are talking about well established links to violence and one of the WORST problems we have is that we don't take the treatment SERIOUSLY. We brush it off as "human nature." Or we just say "we can't force it on people" and then try to use that as an excuse to do NOTHING about access.

How Can I Get My Health Insurance to Pay for Mental Health Treatment?

Health Insurance Coverage Discrimination: Mental Illness | US News

Doesn?t Health Insurance Have to Cover Mental Health Care? What the Mental Health Parity Laws Really Mean, Part 1







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[katzgar]

The problem with comparing US stats to other countries is we are honest in compiling our stats and they are not. There are types of violence, homicide, infant mortality and education levels that the brits and others do not include so they look better. The drug revolution of the 70"s meant people could be let out of institutions as long as they take their pills and be safe. the problem is some dont take their pills and no one is responsible.