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Lets talk about the cost of the war on drugs.

James D Hill

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We have been over the double standard and hypocricy of the lost war on drugs which the moral crusaders don't seem to mind so lets talk about the cost of the war on drugs in money and freedom.

I always thought conservatives wanted to be fiscal hawks and cut waste and cost. Just how much money is spent on this lost war? I do know 2.3 milion people are behind bars for non voilent drug crimes at a cost of 25 billion a year. I don't know the budget of the DEA,ATF or the FBI but you can bet it is not cheap. It should tickle your tightwad nature to legalize my conservative friends.

The worst part of all is the cost in human lives of feeding our nations drug habits. I have heard 30,000 Mexicans have died and the murder rate in our big cities is thru the roof. We have already talked about the cost to our civil liberties but the cost in lives and money is reason enough to legalize drugs.
 
yeah mexico is in a drug fueled civil war thanks to our insane drug policies. and drugs are available on any street corner, come on, who wasnt a teenager here, we all know it.
 
I always thought conservatives wanted to be fiscal hawks and cut waste and cost. Just how much money is spent on this lost war? I do know 2.3 milion people are behind bars for non voilent drug crimes at a cost of 25 billion a year. I don't know the budget of the DEA,ATF or the FBI but you can bet it is not cheap. It should tickle your tightwad nature to legalize my conservative friends.

This is one of many reasons I am no longer a Republican: the hypocrisy. They are "fiscal hawks" in name only. If they believe enough in a cause (ie. War on Terror, War on Drugs) they don't care how many zeros are in the cost, they will throw out every bit of propaganda they have been taught since grade school to justify it.
 
Oh my, it's the Libertarians and Democrats with their goofy plan to pay off the debt by taxing marijuana.

How much have you smoked already tonight?
 
When the liberals run to the federal government seeking out a win on whatever right they think they needs expanding they are also expanding the government's power to impose others' morality upon them. Perhaps if they realized that leaving things up to states would have let them keep their right to get wasted, then they can understand why others actually believe that state and local governments should play the bigger role in making values decisions than Washington. Live by the sword, die by the sword.
 
Oh my, it's the Libertarians and Democrats with their goofy plan to pay off the debt by taxing marijuana.

How much have you smoked already tonight?

I don't care how much money it makes. It is the right thing to do not throwing people in jail because they choose pot over booze. Hippies smoke pot and rednecks drink booze and they both should be legal everywhere.
 
The amount of tax payer dollars spent on the perpetual futility of the drug prohibition is obscene and immoral.

The drug war scam precedes the terror war scam. The Prison Industrial Complex would not exist and thrive as it does without the drug prohibition.
 
Oh my, it's the Libertarians and Democrats with their goofy plan to pay off the debt by taxing marijuana.

How much have you smoked already tonight?

Who made that claim?
 
If you ask me, which nobody did, the "issue" on legalizing marijuana is nonexistant. We spend, annual average, $50 Bill to fight this "War on Drugs". Assuming that people pay the 'sin tax' on marijuana, the government will make probably around 10% on a gram. A gram of government weed will cost probably around $20 at a minimum. Hypothetically, the government will make $2 on every gram. Multiply that by a million and that's one day's revenue. Who would buy one gram? One miilion people is also a very small assumed number. The difference between what we're spending and what we could possibly make is astronomical.

Furthermore, I find it immoral that the government is allowed to make choices for me. Many state governments can decided who I am able to marry (which is no personal issue as I am heterosexual but it still isn't right) and the federal government can decide what I put into my body. It's ridiculous
 
Assuming that people pay the 'sin tax' on marijuana, the government will make probably around 10% on a gram. A gram of government weed will cost probably around $20 at a minimum. Hypothetically, the government will make $2 on every gram. Multiply that by a million and that's one day's revenue. Who would buy one gram? One miilion people is also a very small assumed number. The difference between what we're spending and what we could possibly make is astronomical.

The trouble with this argument is that we are talking about a plant that anyone can grow.

If it was legal then why would any sane individual pay $20 a gram, when they could supply themselves at a fraction of the price?

& if you try to stop personal growers then you're continuing the war on drugs.
 
I always thought conservatives wanted to be fiscal hawks and cut waste and cost. Just how much money is spent on this lost war? I do know 2.3 milion people are behind bars for non voilent drug crimes at a cost of 25 billion a year. I don't know the budget of the DEA,ATF or the FBI but you can bet it is not cheap. It should tickle your tightwad nature to legalize my conservative friends.

True Conservatives understand that cutting costs is only the answer when it can be done without ignoring the Moral responsibilities of Government. Among those responsibilities is the need to maintain proper order in society and to ensure that the basis for a proper society is maintained. Unfortunately neither of these things is possible in a society which allows for the the general acceptance and use of illicit drugs.

I'm all for reducing the cost of dealing with these drug users. I have repeatedly suggested that the cost of prosecuting, and incarcerating them be replaced with the cost of a single bullet to the back of the head by the LEO when they are initially arrested for the drug charges.

The worst part of all is the cost in human lives of feeding our nations drug habits. I have heard 30,000 Mexicans have died and the murder rate in our big cities is thru the roof. We have already talked about the cost to our civil liberties but the cost in lives and money is reason enough to legalize drugs.

I have no concern for the lives of Mexicans. Never have and never will. The crime rate in our large cities has more causes than simply the drug trade. So far as I'm concerned the moment you commit a crime you lose your civil liberties and become sub-human, so human rights have no meaning in regards to you.
 
True Conservatives understand that cutting costs is only the answer when it can be done without ignoring the Moral responsibilities of Government. Among those responsibilities is the need to maintain proper order in society and to ensure that the basis for a proper society is maintained. Unfortunately neither of these things is possible in a society which allows for the the general acceptance and use of illicit drugs.

I'm all for reducing the cost of dealing with these drug users. I have repeatedly suggested that the cost of prosecuting, and incarcerating them be replaced with the cost of a single bullet to the back of the head by the LEO when they are initially arrested for the drug charges.



I have no concern for the lives of Mexicans. Never have and never will. The crime rate in our large cities has more causes than simply the drug trade. So far as I'm concerned the moment you commit a crime you lose your civil liberties and become sub-human, so human rights have no meaning in regards to you.

A government's most sacred responsibility is to protect the freedom and liberty of those it represents. Since we should be free to do what we wish with our lives and our body as long as it does not harm other people, and since someone smoking weed does not harm anyone else, the government is overstepping its own authority and abdicating its own responsibility with the War on Drugs.

You can't maintain order in society when people use drugs? People seem to use alcohol and tobacco in generous proportions without the sky falling mate. Your argument is invalid.
 
A government's most sacred responsibility is to protect the freedom and liberty of those it represents. Since we should be free to do what we wish with our lives and our body as long as it does not harm other people, and since someone smoking weed does not harm anyone else, the government is overstepping its own authority and abdicating its own responsibility with the War on Drugs.

I am not a real strong believer in either Freedom or Liberty. I never have been, since I don't believe that most Americans these days deserve either. I do not agree that smoking weed doesn't harm anyone else. I have my own personal reasons for that, which I've discussed here before.

You can't maintain order in society when people use drugs? People seem to use alcohol and tobacco in generous proportions without the sky falling mate. Your argument is invalid.

Given an option, I would outlaw both of those substances as well.
 
The trouble with this argument is that we are talking about a plant that anyone can grow.

If it was legal then why would any sane individual pay $20 a gram, when they could supply themselves at a fraction of the price?

& if you try to stop personal growers then you're continuing the war on drugs.

Anybody can grow enough tobacco for their personal uses. I do not see any personal tobacco fields anywhere. Quite simply, government weed will be better
 
Anybody can grow enough tobacco for their personal uses. I do not see any personal tobacco fields anywhere. Quite simply, government weed will be better

Not at all, there are huge differences, you can not just grow an ample supply of ciggerette grade tobacco in the corner of a room like you can with cannabis.
 
Not at all, there are huge differences, you can not just grow an ample supply of ciggerette grade tobacco in the corner of a room like you can with cannabis.

Likewise you will not be abe to grow government grade cannabis in the corner of your room. Why would people in California make up 'illnesses' in order to buy $50 weed when they can get it for $10 on the corner?
 
Likewise you will not be abe to grow government grade cannabis in the corner of your room. Why would people in California make up 'illnesses' in order to buy $50 weed when they can get it for $10 on the corner?

Ive actually grown both, so I actually know what Im talking about.

As for "government grade" cannabis, do you know much about THC levels?

Are you really suggesting the government would try to out-THC the private growers?

If anything, because of health risks theyd go the other way (see the Netherlands for working information on this question).
 
Anybody can make bathtub gin but most people don't bother. Anybody can grow tobacco instead of paying $5 to $10 for 20 cigarettes but nobody does.

I have purchased probably $100K in pot over my lifetime and never considered growing it. I doubt that I'm unique. I know many other pot smokers and only two who grows their own (both have MM permits).

The USG doesn't care much about tax revenue. Look at our deficits if you don't believe me. They care about funneling money to their ESTABLISHED connections. The Punishment Industry. The DEA and CIA drug dealing branches and the million cops that have jobs because of this artificial crime.







The trouble with this argument is that we are talking about a plant that anyone can grow.

If it was legal then why would any sane individual pay $20 a gram, when they could supply themselves at a fraction of the price?

& if you try to stop personal growers then you're continuing the war on drugs.
 
Anybody can make bathtub gin but most people don't bother.

Because its a lot harder & the quality usually a lot lower.

Anybody can grow tobacco instead of paying $5 to $10 for 20 cigarettes but nobody does.

See above

I have purchased probably $100K in pot over my lifetime and never considered growing it. I doubt that I'm unique.

I couldnt tell you how much Ive purchased, at a guess a few hundred million dollars worth, & Ive grown a lot of it too.

I know many other pot smokers and only two who grows their own (both have MM permits).

Ive known a LOT of growers, & the number of growers is increasing at a massive rate because of the cheapness & ease of producing crops.

Its a whole different ball game from the things youre comparing it too (Ive done both of those too).
 
Ive actually grown both, so I actually know what Im talking about.

As for "government grade" cannabis, do you know much about THC levels?

Are you really suggesting the government would try to out-THC the private growers?

If anything, because of health risks theyd go the other way (see the Netherlands for working information on this question).

I know quite a bit about THC levels. None of that explains why people go in droves to buy expensive weed if it is so easily grown at home. Legality is no issue as most have been users prior to this. So what brings them to government weed?
 
I am not a real strong believer in either Freedom or Liberty. I never have been, since I don't believe that most Americans these days deserve either. I do not agree that smoking weed doesn't harm anyone else. I have my own personal reasons for that, which I've discussed here before.



Given an option, I would outlaw both of those substances as well.


So you believe thatmost American citizens are unworthy of their inalienable rights under our constitution? You believe that criminals are a lost cause and should be killed without due process to keep the cost of the drug war down?

Lol, you're bordering on insanity my friend. :)

There are legal forms of almost every illicit drug available. The difference lies in potency, intake quantity, and manufacturing. Obviously an FDA approved lab will produce a product less risky or non-toxic, than your neighborhood bathtub crack or meth houses. With smoked herbs the difference lies soley in potency/strength.

You would unjustly sentance a weed smoker or a C2 pill abuser to death because their weed and pills cost them $50/week and their antidepressant is $50 a pop? Or you would punish, by death, a user lost in addiction before they even have a chance at say, rehab? These users are often-times young and impressionable. Or these drugs are used to cope with a hard life or traumatic experience, they can also be pretty fun and useful in the right scenarios.

You want to punish the real criminals buddy? Take the price-gouging, incentive giving, and loathesome pharmaceutical companies to court. Take down the DEA and government policies that imprison people for recreational drug use , all-the-while preaching about how substance abuse is a mental illness, and then making antidepressants, energy enhancers, and pain medications both expensive and a pain in the ass to obtain legally.

I had a Csection and had to wait in the pharmacy for an hour to get my percocet prescription! Why? Prior authorization required by the money-hungry insurance company, lack of supply because of a fear to keep an ample supply due to stricter government regulations, and because of the great amount of detail put into even the closing transaction! By the end of the ordeal my scar had formed a bleeding fissure, I was out $50 for the script, and had to go back two days later for the completion fill. I could've just saved myself the hastle and gone down to campus for a higher doseage at half the cash price I paid (I cant remember the number of pills I got in my partial fill, it wasnt 3 days worth but it was 3 days before we had money for the completion fill, and the street prices were lower than the pharmacy but I was breastfeeding so I didnt risk it),. Had it been a medication for a chronic condition like fibromyalgia, gout, or structural deformities, the neighborhood "corner pharmacy" is convienent. Just simply more convienent.

But, I digress. People are desperate for relief, to feel generally good, and for an occasional adrenaline rush or dopamine surge "high", in life. If we cant afford it legally or cant obtain it legally because of regulation, there will always be a black market for it. The people resorting to drug use, feeding a long-living addiction, or simply using a drug for some benefit (energy, stress relief, painkiller et al) are no more criminals than the teen who just downed a gallon of redbull,l or the guy having ala beer or one too many, to achieve maximum performance levels or to destress. The difference is one is labeled legal and the other illegal. All or none people will die of environmental and social causes. People will murder, rape, burgalerize, and cause harm to others with or without illegal drugs. And most importantly, people will continue using narcotics and illicit substances despite the social stigma, prohibition, and known effects/ side effects of their chosen vice. Smokers, smoke despite lung cancer/heart disease, alcoholics drink in spite of liver cerosis, and tweakers, cokeheads, potheads, and pillpoppers will use despite the dangers to their psyche and systemic functions.

If you're going to shoot drug addicts/users based on the principal of "harm towards others/society", you had better ready that rifle for the food addicts, sex addicts, and anyone addicted to/ occassionally using ANYTHING, that stimulates that pleasure sensor in the brain. Because almost everyone has a vice.
 
I know quite a bit about THC levels. None of that explains why people go in droves to buy expensive weed if it is so easily grown at home. Legality is no issue as most have been users prior to this. So what brings them to government weed?

Put quite simply the vast majority of users dont go for government weed.

In some places, depending on legislation, some people go for government weed, & if it was everywhere that number would increase, but it would be a minority.

You can grow stuff as good as it gets at a fraction of $20 a gram (thats a ridiculous price really), so you'd never turn that minority into a majority at that price, or displace the black market at that price.

& this view that government would some how make the "best" weed is also a highly dubious claim. In fact there used to be quite a few smokers, all be it a minority, who used to be against legalization just because of concerns over that issue.

It was a bit of an extreme position, but the reasoning behind that aspect was sound enough that in probability government would never produce the best weed, as that would contradict their best interests.

In fact theres even some crude evidence for this in countries where prohibition came late in the "war on drugs" & where low level cannabis was preffered on health grounds.

Lets not forget this isnt just a harmless plant, there are genuine health issues, so you're never going to get the government trying to "out-unhealthy" the black market, & therefore it always will be an inferior product, & there would always be superior alternatives, either grown personally, or on the black market.

Im sure a number of people would switch, but if you enforce a government monopoly then you enforce a lower grade product, & keep fighting a war on drugs against the superior blackmarket alternative.

In reality, if you went the tax route, then youd have to considerably lower the price below the $20 a gram price to drive the blackmarket out of bussiness, which would require the government not just to legalize the stuff, but to drive the current street market price down.

Combine the two "negatives" & can you see any government pushing a position where they are driving market prices down, & strength up, on a product that has proven health risks associated with it?

Put it this way, if a presidential candidate ran on a platform that promoted cuts in tobacco prices, & an increase in nicotene & tar levels, how popular would he be with certain sections of the population?

Its hard to run on a pro-unhealthy stance, obviously, or there would be more people doing it.

Its one of the reasons that legalization/decriminalization and taxation have always been kept as seperate issues.

If you seperate the issues & ask if over a period of time whether a monopoly (or monopolies) could be established over the product, and taxation slowly introduced, then that is a possability, but thats a seperate issue, further down the line & would still require a war on drugs, & also would be divisive amongst smokers.

I mean I dont know what your smoking levels are, those vary from person to person.

You have the casual smoker who might have a toke or two at a party now & again in their youth, very low level users who smoke maybe 0.5 grams a day & then you keep going up through people smoking 20/30 grams a day, up to the very heaviest smokers who have no upper limit.

Take someone sitting down and smoking 20 grams in a session with a friend, watch tv, or listening to music or whatever.

At $20 a gram thats a $400 session, & thats not cheap for a lot of people, so I doubt someone on that smoking level would support your $20 a gram government monopoly.
 
I think a better solution is to allow the people to make a profit off of marijuana. Similar to alcohol and tobacco. People can get licenses or permits to grow their own weed, a seperate permit and instructional course/ business license to manufacter and sell their product, and the government wins by default with the revenue from the permits and the business taxes.

It would also, eventually, all-but eradicate the black market appeal. Seen alot of moonshine lately? And as far as the health concerns, minimal I might add, go... The FDA just loves labels, ingredients, and surgeon general warnings :). Apply them in this scenario and its a win/win. Not to mention it will eventually create stocks, hopefully increase in market value, and produce a more significant return in revenue in a few years time.
 
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