• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Let's talk about California Fire Management + CA COMPETENCE

H

Hawkeye10

Buttermilk Man
DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 29, 2015
Messages
45,404
Reaction score
11,746
Location
Olympia Wa
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
Worst fires ever, dead people, people rushing out of the house in the middle of the night with nothing just steps in front of the fire because they were not warned, in fact there no longer exists a good warning system now that almost no one has land lines. Remember Oroville Dam where the spillway broke to potentially catastrophic result this year:
Last week, the Oroville Dam Spillway Incident Independent Forensic Team, an independent panel of dam experts, concluded that poor design and construction in the 1960s, combined with a failure to perform adequate repairs, led to the spillway failure.
Click to expand...
Oroville Dam: Here's what the spillway looks like now

Failure to do maintenance is state of California mismanagement, just as I claimed at the time. I also was not happy with their water level management, it was stupid to let it get to 100% before they dumped any water just because they wanted to look at a 100% full lake, the spillway had not been used in years, maybe you want to test it out??

MAYBE?


So horrible state of California management happens...did it happen here? Both by failing to control the fires and by failing to warn people?

See I have this theory that California does bad work in part because like Japan before the nuke problem they still have a rep for being able to manage things, so with that and a citizenry who wants to trust them no one ever starts asking the right questions (Including so-called journalists of course), no one ever starts demanding proof that things are getting done, which is good, because they are not. California officials get away with it because citizens do not demand better.

But too many more really bad failures like this and that reputation is gone baby.

What does California do then I wonder.
 
https://ww2.kqed.org/news/2017/07/21/oroville-dam-spillway-report-alleges-dwr-ferc-negligence/


KQED is reporting it straight, but a lot of the stuff from the so-called journalists super sugar coats the conclusions of this report.

Journalism has to work.



EDIT: Just to make this more fun they are rushing to get the spillway done, because the lake is filling up. Nov 1 Was the deadline set. They might make it.
 
Last edited:
Let's not. Wettest winter in a century; massive fuel explosion. Northwind weather events, plus idiot firebugs with matches = 5000+ structures burned, nearly 30 confirmed dead and 500 missing, and here comes Hawkeye10 opining that any of the thousands of Californians who lost their homes of their lives were the fault of a state legislature that didn't pay the proper bounty to Moscow during the international poker game of "massive annihilation during natural disasters" because the Soviets were able to control the massive wind events that destroyed thousands of structures, killed hundreds of people because, hey, they are the MAN, right?

Just forget about it. Just Californians after all. Nobody important. Who cares if they live or die. The congress and WH only care about RED states... nobody in DC gives a fat flying fuck about California, Puerto Rico, Virgin Islands or anywhere else where Blue States or American Citizens who don't have the allowable votes to fight back.
 

These fires are a normal part of the natural process in that part of the country. Just like hurricanes in the gulf coast region. As more and more people build their homes in harms way more and more people are going to have harm come to them. It is sad and unfortunate. Especially for the people that do not realize they are buying a home in harms way. We unfortunately have reached a point in this country where so many people are living in harms way that we cannot afford it. I think in the future we are going to have to get smarter on how and where we build our homes and cities. Otherwise things will get worse.
 

The lack of landlines is starting to be a problem, but here in the Midwest, we get alerts on our cell phones when weather is threatening and I don't see why they can't do that as well. In addition, we have huge sirens in our communities -- does California have none of those?

TV stations should also be putting out constant alerts in threatened areas. Why are so many getting caught in these fires? That's crazy in this day and age.
 

Wowwwww
 

I came across an article that told of concern for the condition of overhead powerlines that were potential fire hazzards. A bi-partisan bill was passed in the state legislature that addressed these concerns and sent to Gov. Brown's desk in 2016 and he vetoed it.


Wine County fire: Should Jerry Brown have vetoed fire bill?
 

The way this is undoubtedly going to have to happen is through insurance companies refusing to insure homes built in these areas. I say apparently because it seems building permits will continue to be issued in these tinder boxes by local gvmt as they have been up until now.

As to late bugouts caused by lack of land lines, a simple drive-thru with a distinctive siren would easily solve that problem.

And I agree with you, burns don’t have to be caused by careless campers or arson. Mother Nature has done it herself in forested areas and plains, for that matter, since the beginning of time.
 

That is one of Trumps and congress agendas. If state and local government had to insure these homes they would not issue the permits. However as long as the federal government is footing the bill the local government will continue to allow people to build in clearly dangerous areas. You would see zoning changes if the local government had to offer flood and fire insurance to these areas that regular insurance companies are not stupid enough to cover. Plus it would be the local people living in harms way that would be subsidizing these policies and paying money out. I think they would have a change of heart if it come out of their pockets instead of everyone else's. It is clear the average home owner does not care until after the fact.
 

State and local gvmt doesn’t insure these properties. Neither does the Fed gvmt. Flood zones are another kettle of fish. The Fed does insure for those. The Only thing the Fed might do is designate these tinder boxes as fire zones and declaring them unbuildable much as they do wetlands. They ought to do that.
 

Fires whipped by the winds can spread by leaps and bounds and are completely unpredictable. Napa saw Hurricane force winds during this last fire and that spreads burning embers a mile or two in front of the flame front.

From a report on the 2007 fires:

Fires in southern California driven by high winds don't burn like that. Embers from fires driven by high winds can start fires up to 1.5 miles away from the "front" of the fire. The maximum distance of "1.5 miles" is the canonical wisdom; it apparently is larger in some cases. A home on Queenston Drive in Escondido burned on 22 October 2007 when an ember from "2 miles away" landed on its wood shake roof. This is a minimum distance, since the fire never burned closer than two miles to this house. (San Diego Union Tribune, 1 November 2007, NI-1)

The 2007 Fallbrook Fire: A Fire In A Suburban Rural Landscape

A half mile swath of open "fire break" can be jumped in no time. I know. Been there, done that in the 2007 fires. Reverse 9/11 calls work if you have a land line. But they are only a good as the information coming in. And information an hour old is worthless when a fire like Napa or the 2007 fires are in play.
 

The problem with that argument is that wildfires are one of those things we have been dealing with forever, and often times been dealing with far better than we have this time. Things like this are a real wrench in the theory of progress.
 

This like the failure of the dam is almost completely The State of California's fault, not the federal government, this is on Cal Fire.
 
Last edited:

True in that the experts have long warned that so many people living in wilderness areas makes dealing with fire more complicated, they have advised against it over and over, but the trend in recent decades in California has been to do just that because people want what they want. But you know we all knew that, as did the State of California, which makes the fact that they never came up with workable plans to warn people and do evacuations negligence.

The State needs to be held accountable.

The citizens must demand better.
 
Last edited:
Hawkeye10 said:
The problem with that argument is that wildfires are one of those things we have been dealing with forever, and often times been dealing with far better than we have this time. Things like this are a real wrench in the theory of progress.
Click to expand...

There is progress, but there also is nature.

And nature trumps progress quite often.

A wildfire does not care what progress has occurred. A wildfire will go wherever it damn well wants. And it will do it at a speed that few comprehend. The 2007 fires saw flame fronts traveling over 16 miles an hour. Embers lighting off fires two miles downwind. Hurricane force winds (some in the 90-100 mph range). Fire "tornadoes" and other anomalies. Fire + wind = destruction.

Air drops at those wind speeds are impossible. At lower wind speeds (50-70) the water/retardant is often ineffective or dropped where the fire has already passed. "Fire breaks" are ineffective. Back burning unadvised.

If you have a home in California you are at risk.
 

You and me know that, surely fire experts in California know that too, so why did they for so long act like this was no big deal, why were they not out warning people at the front end " Hey Ya'll, this could be a problem, if you live in these counties have your bags packed, pay close attention to the news, and be ready to flee, these fires can be deadly"?

They said almost nothing, they did not want to scare people, they say now they thought that their fire fighters would be able to handle it. Have you listened to some of these first responders....they were getting their asses kicked on these fires from the get go, they knew it, they feel bad about it, surely their bosses knew.

And said nothing.
 
PG&E is having worst week in nine years as wildfires rage - SFGate

This would be if true yet more negligence on the part of the State of California...it has long been known that PG&E does not invest in the upkeep of the system as they need to, the State knows, and the state has an obligation to the citizens to take action when its regulated unities dont correctly manage their systems.....but see California politicians have other more sexy things on their minds, like "green energy", they have long told PG&E to prioritize the sexy stuff.
 

I spent 30 years in wildland fire management (federal agency). My experience with the fuel load from the wet winter that is now cured, the high winds (40-70mpg), and the high temp/low rh%, it was highly unlikely a wildfire could have been stopped once started.

That said.
- I know that the federal and State fire agencies have been educating the public for years on Firewise (Home - Firewise) principles to reduce the risk of wildfire destroying a home.
- From what I could see from news photos/vids/fire web sites in many areas the fuel (brush/trees/grass) were right up to the homes.
Wildfire Today – News and opinion about wildland fire
- Homes in some neighborhoods were close together with vegetation between homes.
- Once the first home went up. The fire became more of a house to house fire.
- It has been reported that some of the fires were started by downed powerlines, close in to homes. Some homeowners said they saw the fire and then it was on them

imo.
- Not enough was done by the homeowners to reduce fuel and Firewise the property.
- Local fire departments were overwhelmed by the fire behavior of the wildfire and the number of structures ignited.
- It is a damn if you do and damn if you don't on notifications.
- The rate of spread (ros) of the fires really didn't provide much time for early warning to the public.
- Some of the public has put way too much faith on what the local fire department or State Fire can do for them.

It is tragic event that CA is experiencing. It is sad when any life is lost (homeowner or first responders). It is sad the amount of personal property lost. I hope the ones who have been impacted can rebuild and receive they need.
 

But you know.....they never even had a plan for how to warn people now that the landlines are so often gone, and they were very quiet at the front end, and just as with 9/11 in NYC one of the biggest problems trying to get this fire down has been that there is not one communication system for all which was of course completely forseeable yet nothing was ever done.

"This is the best we can do folks" is not going to work here.
 

Ummm

Citation?

Sonoma County Sheriff Rob Giordano said Wednesday that the county sent out warnings through its SoCoAlert service and Nixle, both systems that require residents to register in advance in order to receive messages. The county also sent out reverse 911 calls to landlines in unincorporated areas. Santa Rosa, where block after block of suburban homes was destroyed, sent out alerts through SoCoAlert, Nixle and on social media.

Napa, Sonoma counties did not issue Amber Alert-style warnings ahead of fires - LA Times
 

PG&E Corp. is about to cap its worst week in nine years on speculation that downed power lines may have played a part in deadly wildfires racing across Napa Valley.
The shares resumed their slide on Friday, slumping as much as 13 percent, as Evercore ISI said the market's pricing in "significant financial exposure" to the wildfires.
PG&E's stock had barely budged earlier this week when the wildfires began spreading, consuming people's homes and forcing thousands to evacuate. Then local media began pointing to potential connections between the fires and PG&E power lines knocked down by strong winds. By Thursday, California fire officials had confirmed they're investigating the role of downed power lines, and utility regulators said they're looking at PG&E's maintenance activities in the area.
 

https://www.nbcbayarea.com/investig...Against-Activating-Mass-Alert--450703593.html

Just damning....
 

People need to hold themselves responsible when you intentionally build in harms way. Evacuation with these fires needs to be done way in advance due to the shifting winds. I fought wild fires in Arizona when I was in the military. As an MP my job was directing firefighters on which way to go when evacuating as the winds changed. Even the firefighters were getting trapped. With so many people living in harms way I am surprised we haven't had more people killed. A lot of the mountain is accessible by only 1 road in or out. Once the fire cuts the road off There is no evacuation. The only hope is to get lucky and find a safe area or the wind changes direction.
 

That is simply untrue. I received an automated "Coded Alert" evacuation order on Tuesday, when a fire erupted 4 miles from my home. Several hours later, I received a "Coded Alert" recording saying the evacuator order had been lifted.

Also, I don't recall seeing a bunch of "it's all the state's fault, and residents who lost homes are to blame for living there" when Montana and Colorado were ravaged by wildfires a month or so ago. Why, praytell, is all of this venom and finger-pointing relegated only to California?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Menu
Log in
Register
Cookies are required to use this site. You must accept them to continue using the site. Learn more…