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Let's stop recognizing Putin as president of Russia

Craig234

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We know he's rigged elections to seize power corruptly. Last year, he force through a corrupt law to 'reset' his terms in office so he can run over and over despite limits. In response, some in Congress submitted a bill to no longer recognize him as president as of 2024 if he runs again. Why don't we pass that, but stop recognizing him as president sooner? I'm just suggesting we look at whether doing so would have benefits and be practical.

 

Mycroft

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We know he's rigged elections to seize power corruptly. Last year, he force through a corrupt law to 'reset' his terms in office so he can run over and over despite limits. In response, some in Congress submitted a bill to no longer recognize him as president as of 2024 if he runs again. Why don't we pass that, but stop recognizing him as president sooner? I'm just suggesting we look at whether doing so would have benefits and be practical.

LOL!!

Sounds like something a liberal would do: "I'll just close my eyes and refuse to accept that Putin is the President of Russia and, lo and behold!!!, when I open my eyes...he WON'T be!!"

Kemosabi...you got some POWERFUL liberal magic!
 

Bullseye

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We know he's rigged elections to seize power corruptly. Last year, he force through a corrupt law to 'reset' his terms in office so he can run over and over despite limits. In response, some in Congress submitted a bill to no longer recognize him as president as of 2024 if he runs again. Why don't we pass that, but stop recognizing him as president sooner? I'm just suggesting we look at whether doing so would have benefits and be practical.

And that well result in . . .?
 

btthegreat

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We know he's rigged elections to seize power corruptly. Last year, he force through a corrupt law to 'reset' his terms in office so he can run over and over despite limits. In response, some in Congress submitted a bill to no longer recognize him as president as of 2024 if he runs again. Why don't we pass that, but stop recognizing him as president sooner? I'm just suggesting we look at whether doing so would have benefits and be practical.

Until we have a specific figure with a viable claim and the authority and power to negotiate for Russia -who's name is not Putin, we are stuck recognizing Putin's govt, and it is Putin which that govt recognizes.

Not in favor of denying a reality, that objectively reflects the truth - even in diplomacy. It's just looks silly and its just not going to work.
 

Craig234

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Until we have a specific figure with a viable claim and the authority and power to negotiate for Russia -who's name is not Putin, we are stuck recognizing Putin's govt, and it is Putin which that govt recognizes.

Except we're not.

Not in favor of denying a reality, that objectively reflects the truth - even in diplomacy. It's just looks silly and its just not going to work.

You really are not understanding the issue. It's not about the 'reality' of who has power. It's about the 'reality' of the diplomacy, their power and rights in terms of our government, the harm and weakening that can be done to them by not recognizing them 'officially'. Think about how during the 1960's, Taiwan was recognized as the government of China, how they had the seat in the UN and the veto and so on, for example.
 

btthegreat

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Except we're not.



You really are not understanding the issue. It's not about the 'reality' of who has power. It's about the 'reality' of the diplomacy, their power and rights in terms of our government, the harm and weakening that can be done to them by not recognizing them 'officially'. Think about how during the 1960's, Taiwan was recognized as the government of China, how they had the seat in the UN and the veto and so on, for example.
I think diplomacy needs to reflect reality, not create its own 'alternate reality' for its own arbitrary set of rules. It just loses respect when it so brazenly diverges from reality. The People's Republic of China never changed its position or insistence that there was only one 'China' and its been winning this diplomatic war not losing it. . Its the sovereign nation that the international community universally recognizes as 'China' The fact that you refer to this Island as Taiwan instead of the Republic of China, and the United Nations now calls that same Island 'Taiwan, Province of China' tells you everything. My point is that diplomats refusing to recognise reality did not weaken the People's Republic of China at all. Reality just kept gaining strength alongside the People's Republic of China, not losing it.

There is no point in pretending that Putin is not the leader of the govt in Russia as long as he leads the govt in Russia.
 
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Craig234

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I think diplomacy needs to reflect reality, not create its own 'alternate reality' for its own set of rules. It just loses respect when it diverges substantially from reality. The People's Republic of China never changed its position or insistence that there was only one 'China' and its been winning this diplomatic war not losing it. . Its the sovereign nation that the international community universally recognizes as 'China' The fact that you refer to this Island as Taiwan instead of the Republic of China, and the United Nations now calls that same Island 'Taiwan, Province of China' tells you everything. My point is that diplomats refusing to recognise reality did not weaken the People's Republic of China at all. It kept gaining strength, not losing it.

There is no point in pretending that Putin is not the leader of the govt in Russia as long as he leads the govt in Russia.

But you're repeating the same erroneous understanding. When the government declares a parent loses custody of their child for abusing, is that the government not recognizing the reality they're the parent? Is the government losing respect by doing it? No. Russia is about to lose 'most favored nation' status. Does that mean they don't trade? No. If the UN kicked Russia out, would that mean they are saying Russia doesn't exist? No.
 

btthegreat

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But you're repeating the same erroneous understanding. When the government declares a parent loses custody of their child for abusing, is that the government not recognizing the reality they're the parent? Is the government losing respect by doing it? No. Russia is about to lose 'most favored nation' status. Does that mean they don't trade? No. If the UN kicked Russia out, would that mean they are saying Russia doesn't exist? No.
No, the phrase 'most favored' are adjectives that modify the noun 'nation'. when we claim that those words no longer apply it means that this particular nation is not 'most favored' not that it does not trade. If the UN kicked 'Russia' out ( which it cannot), that does not mean Russia does not exist. It means its membership status in the UN is no longer recognized.

Your problem here is that there is no other govt in Russia to recognise instead and its the only govt anyone can recognise. If anyone wants to negotiate with Russia about anything including a cease-fire , they are going to have to talk to Putin's govt as the only voice with the power to negotiate at all. It would be ludicrous to negociate with some fake govt we create out of nothing outside of Russia when this shadow govt does not have the power to deliver. The power behind Putin's govt matters more than some empty shell govt without anything else except symbolism.
 

Craig234

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No, the phrase 'most favored' are adjectives that modify the noun 'nation'. when we claim that those words no longer apply it means that this particular nation is not 'most favored' not that it does not trade. If the UN kicked 'Russia' out ( which it cannot), that does not mean Russia does not exist. It means its membership status in the UN is no longer recognized.

Your problem here is that there is no other govt in Russia to recognise instead and its the only govt anyone can recognise. If anyone wants to negotiate with Russia about anything including a cease-fire , they are going to have to talk to Putin's govt as the only voice with the power to negotiate at all. It would be ludicrous to negociate with some fake govt we create out of nothing outside of Russia when this shadow govt does not have the power to deliver. The power behind Putin's govt matters more than some empty shell govt without anything else except symbolism.

But you don't get that the US not recognizing Putin doesn't mean what you said. The US has zero diplomatic recognition of Taiwan as a country, yet we talk to the all the time, sell them many weapons and so on. If you haven't gotten this yet, I don't know how to help at this point.
 

btthegreat

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But you don't get that the US not recognizing Putin doesn't mean what you said. The US has zero diplomatic recognition of Taiwan as a country, yet we talk to the all the time, sell them many weapons and so on. If you haven't gotten this yet, I don't know how to help at this point.
What you don't get is that you just reversed your own position on the value of this 'diplomatic recognition' that you wanted to exploit as a weapon to hurt Putin and Russia.
 

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Excellent suggestion.

All decent nations should declare that they no longer recognize "that individual" as the "president" of Russia.

A talking head on CNN (I'm now watching only its Ukraine coverage) said the coward (not his word, only mine) is afraid of only one group: The military brass that could easily kick his posterior across the room.

If most of the important nations refused to recognize that coward, maybe some Russian military brass that still have a conscience might tell him, "Goodbye."

The West MUST (not "should") stop the bloodletting of innocent civilians, not to mention the unnecessary death of Ukrainian and Russian boys.

*****

I think that people are getting worn out (bored?) with the news from Ukraine. In fact, FOX is starting to report other news. BUT when the Russians start killing people and destroying buildings in Kiev, then world indignation will again fill the airwaves. And -- of course -- if (when?) the Russians capture President Z., well ...
 

less right

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LOL!!

Sounds like something a liberal would do: "I'll just close my eyes and refuse to accept that Putin is the President of Russia and, lo and behold!!!, when I open my eyes...he WON'T be!!"

Kemosabi...you got some POWERFUL liberal magic!
"Stop the Steal".
 

Craig234

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What you don't get is that you just reversed your own position on the value of this 'diplomatic recognition' that you wanted to exploit as a weapon to hurt Putin and Russia.
No, I didn't. And instead of actually responding, you seem to be trying to find an attack.
 

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I say we demand term limits on our own BECAUSE special interest politicians are not going to cut themselves off the big bucks being funneled through campaign finance and what the hell who wants to remove themselves from illegal insider trading.

As for Putin I don't recognize him as we speak ..............those other governments extremes are against the people always that likely don't care what we think.
 

Razoo

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No, the phrase 'most favored' are adjectives that modify the noun 'nation'. when we claim that those words no longer apply it means that this particular nation is not 'most favored' not that it does not trade. If the UN kicked 'Russia' out ( which it cannot), that does not mean Russia does not exist. It means its membership status in the UN is no longer recognized.

Your problem here is that there is no other govt in Russia to recognise instead and its the only govt anyone can recognise. If anyone wants to negotiate with Russia about anything including a cease-fire , they are going to have to talk to Putin's govt as the only voice with the power to negotiate at all. It would be ludicrous to negociate with some fake govt we create out of nothing outside of Russia when this shadow govt does not have the power to deliver. The power behind Putin's govt matters more than some empty shell govt without anything else except symbolism.
This is exactly what Charles Koch and ALEC are trying to achieve in the USA as we speak. And they are close to turning the USA into Russia, China, North Korea, etc etc etc.......VOTERS NEED TO WAKE UP TO
SEE THE DANGER KNOCKING ON THEIR FRONT DOORS.
 

CaughtInThe

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I think sane people may be looking at this era the wrong way a bit. There are some huge positives over the last 4 or 5 or 6 years.

Sane people do not…

  • Support or make excuses for the Russian invasion and slaughter
  • Support or make excuses for the massive lying ex president
  • Get conned by Republican media
  • Support people who say they grab women between the legs
  • Support or try to overthrow our government
  • Support Russia overthrowing the Ukrainian government
  • Believe the big lie
  • Have to whitewash history
  • Have to stay mad all the time

So while we all debate Russia and current events never forget there are so many good things that sane people should stick their chest out and be proud of.
 

btthegreat

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This is exactly what Charles Koch and ALEC are trying to achieve in the USA as we speak. And they are close to turning the USA into Russia, China, North Korea, etc etc etc.......VOTERS NEED TO WAKE UP TO
SEE THE DANGER KNOCKING ON THEIR FRONT DOORS.
I don't understand this post, or why you quoted my post and used any of it in reply. I am advocating for diplomacy to mirror reality, not try to create its own reality. I am just arguing that we not engage in some fraudulant charade pretending that Putin is not the leader of Russian Govt, when the Russian govt is pretty darn clear that he is. Our deciding not to recognise Putin, its juvenile, and silly and nothing gets accomplished. Nobody is fooled by a govt that pretends it does not see what it sees, hear what it hears, or knows what it knows. Putin is the leader of Russia and there is nobody else around who comes even close to taking that role.
 
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