Let the Holocaust deniers speak out (1 Viewer)

[jujuman13]

Freedom of speech should be paramount, as Freedom of thought already is.

Link
Let the Holocaust deniers speak out - Comment - Times Online

 

[Tashah]

Moderator's Warning:

Moved to a more appropriate forum

 

[paulmarkj]

Freedom of speech should be paramount, as Freedom of thought already is.

Austria and Germany may look upon freedom of speech in a different light: they had freedom of speech in the 1920s - 1930s which lead to Nazi rule, so perhaps they feel that to stop a repetition, they need to suppress the Nazi support and, let's face, holocaust liars.

As individuals, we are protected from liars who lie about us, and organisations can also sue, but what about countries or peoples?

Most countries have restrictions on freedom of speech. I don't mind an open and honest debate, but the likes of Irving does not want that, they want to preach to the ramble with no comeback.

 

[rathi]

Different countries have different needs. America has a very diverse culture and widely differing viewpoints, meaning that free speech is a keystone in our country. Germany and Austria are a bit different. They were run by the Nazi's and commited some of greatest atrocities ever. I have no problem with them banning such speech, given their overwhelming history.

 

[Thelost1]

Restricting free speech is one of the worst things that can be done. Pity we can't just shoot all the nazis.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

Restricting free speech is one of the worst things that can be done. Pity we can't just shoot all the nazis.

WE CAN'T? :shock: I'm in trouble. :2razz:

 

[Axl Turwalt]

Restricting free speech is one of the worst things that can be done. Pity we can't just shoot all the nazis.

...and what would you define as a Nazi? Many Germans were forcefully brainwashed by Nazism propaganda or living in fear of their own lives based on the oppression brought forth by the government. Really, the only true Nazi's were the government and those who devoted themselves to the political party knowing all too well the mentality of its leader.

 

[Just Me 2]

...and what would you define as a Nazi? Many Germans were forcefully brainwashed by Nazism propaganda or living in fear of their own lives based on the oppression brought forth by the government. Really, the only true Nazi's were the government and those who devoted themselves to the political party knowing all too well the mentality of its leader.

I would say anyone that actively participated in the atrocity's that took place during WWII. They had a brain and there were many Germans that did not agree with what was happening and tried to help the Jewish people, if more people would have stood up and said "NO" there would be no Nazi's. It comes down to morels and having a soul. Nazi's have no soul.

Oh and SHOULD BE SHOT!!

 

[Makhno]

Freedom of speech should be paramount, as Freedom of thought already is.

Link
Let the Holocaust deniers speak out - Comment - Times Online

I totally agree. If someone thinks that the holocaust was a hoax then it should be interesting to hear them enlighten us as to how it was a hoax.

Although that said, all Nazis really do deserve death.

 

[jallman]

I totally agree. If someone thinks that the holocaust was a hoax then it should be interesting to hear them enlighten us as to how it was a hoax.

Although that said, all Nazis really do deserve death.

Or to be used as lab experiments. Hell, I wouldn't even mind if we put them on display at the zoo like the animals they are.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

Or to be used as lab experiments. Hell, I wouldn't even mind if we put them on display at the zoo like the animals they are.

In bold. But that would draw attention to them. :doh:mrgreen: Here's a better idea: lets use them as a new type of fuel. Then they'd finally be of some use.

 

[Axl Turwalt]

I would say anyone that actively participated in the atrocity's that took place during WWII. They had a brain and there were many Germans that did not agree with what was happening and tried to help the Jewish people, if more people would have stood up and said "NO" there would be no Nazi's. It comes down to morels and having a soul. Nazi's have no soul.

You make a good point however I wouldn't go as far as saying 'anyone actively participated in the atrocity's that took place during WWII'. I did state that the Nazi party used brainwashing to gain power from the people who otherwise would have desired peace on a world wide scale.

As for the part in bold, I would like to challenge you to sit in a room with a minority of individuals surrounded by armed, brainwashed and legally psychotic government figures and be defiant that what your government is doing is wrong. There were indeed people who wanted to help out the jews, most of which never instigated this due to the fact that they would lose everything. They would be killed and most likely than not, in front of their wife and children. Leading through example it is. A tactical way of 'brainwashing' others to believe that you are invincible and that they are simply a minority.

The most powerful factor in determining the minds of others is influence. The greater the influence, the more people will convert to that cause. Ultimately, Al-Queada use similar tactics in the contemporary world.

 

[Gardener]

. Hell, I wouldn't even mind if we put them on display at the zoo like the animals they are.

Better put some plexiglass around the cages, though.

If you thought chimpanzees throwing their poop was bad..........

 

[Just Me 2]

You make a good point however I wouldn't go as far as saying 'anyone actively participated in the atrocity's that took place during WWII'. I did state that the Nazi party used brainwashing to gain power from the people who otherwise would have desired peace on a world wide scale.

As for the part in bold, I would like to challenge you to sit in a room with a minority of individuals surrounded by armed, brainwashed and legally psychotic government figures and be defiant that what your government is doing is wrong. There were indeed people who wanted to help out the jews, most of which never instigated this due to the fact that they would lose everything. They would be killed and most likely than not, in front of their wife and children. Leading through example it is. A tactical way of 'brainwashing' others to believe that you are invincible and that they are simply a minority.

The most powerful factor in determining the minds of others is influence. The greater the influence, the more people will convert to that cause. Ultimately, Al-Queada use similar tactics in the contemporary world.

You're right brainwashing is a powerful tool but they should still be punished regardless if they were brainwashed or not. People turned on their own neighbors that is not brainwashed that is pure hate.

 

[Axl Turwalt]

You're right brainwashing is a powerful tool but they should still be punished regardless if they were brainwashed or not. People turned on their own neighbors that is not brainwashed that is pure hate.

I'm not saying don't punish them, afterall even a brainwashed individual still has control of their actions. However I am stating not to refer to them as 'Nazis' in the derogative form due to the fact that they had a subliminal hatred installed into their minds.

The real nazi's are guys like Heinrich Himmler and Adolf Hitler, not the ordinary soldier who serves his own country for his own survival and the survival of his people. Others that would classify as nazi's would be the contemporary neo-nazi factions spread through-out the world.

Ultimately the point I am trying to make is that there are 2 different types of Nazi's.

Derogative Nazi - Someone who celebrates wide-spread genocide and believes in a single pure race. This would be classified as Hitler, Himmler, Schutzstafel, Gestapo, etc.
Political Nazi - Someone who is against socialism and communism.

Although these are quite concise definitions of the two variations, I suppose you kind of understand where I am getting at here. Afterall, if anyone here is against coomunism, that would make them part nazi.

 

[Just Me 2]

I'm not saying don't punish them, afterall even a brainwashed individual still has control of their actions. However I am stating not to refer to them as 'Nazis' in the derogative form due to the fact that they had a subliminal hatred installed into their minds.

But they were. Anyone that raised their hands to another human being simply because they were Jewish IS a Nazi, in every sense of the word.

The real nazi's are guys like Heinrich Himmler and Adolf Hitler, not the ordinary soldier who serves his own country for his own survival and the survival of his people. Others that would classify as nazi's would be the contemporary neo-nazi factions spread through-out the world.

The soldiers you are taking about are the MAIN ones that did the killing in the camps and ghettos. What should they be called?

Ultimately the point I am trying to make is that there are 2 different types of Nazi's.
Derogative Nazi - Someone who celebrates wide-spread genocide and believes in a single pure race. This would be classified as Hitler, Himmler, Schutzstafel, Gestapo, etc.
Political Nazi - Someone who is against socialism and communism.

I wasn't aware that people who are against socialism were called Nazi's. I'm going to have to research that one some before I can make a comment.

Although these are quite concise definitions of the two variations, I suppose you kind of understand where I am getting at here. Afterall, if anyone here is against coomunism, that would make them part nazi.

Again I was unaware that people who are against communism were called Nazi's. If they are called Nazi's why would they want to be considering what being a Nazi represents in the eyes of majority of the world.

 

[Axl Turwalt]

You make excellent points there. However I still disagree with the whole conception that anyone who kills a Jew is a nazi. Aren't you forgetting the fact that ordinary soldiers were ORDERED to kill jews? And by whom?

Testimonies of ex-German soldiers prove that they were forcibally ordered to kill jews against their own wishes. Now the question I have for you is if a gun was to your head and you were ordered to shoot an innocent individual or face death yourself, knowing well that the individual was going to be perish within minutes after your death anyway, wouldn't you just pull the trigger?

The point here is that just because you do something doesn't necessarily mean that you are that something. In the end, as I stated before, those individuals were fighting a war for their own evolution (as a nation). Evolution means survival of the fittest. So is it even just that the United States invades 'terrorist states' and gets praised for doing so? The way I see it the war on terrorism and the holocaust has many similarities, just not on the same scale.

Seeing as the original post was about holocaust deniers, I will go so far as to say that anyone who denies the holocaust is a nazi in their own right. A derogative nazi for that matter no better than Adolf Hitler himself. They shouldn't be imprisoned for their right of speech (as occurs in Germany and some other states), however they should be placed through an intensive course focusing on the holocaust. How could the official records of 6 million jewish fatalities and a further 3 - 5 million unnofficial ones be nothing more than a conspiracy or falsified information?

 

[Morrow]

Austria and Germany ... had freedom of speech in the 1920s - 1930s which lead to Nazi rule...

This is a logical fallacy.

 

[Axl Turwalt]

I totally agree with you Morrow. It is a logical myth. Isn't the majority of the world now giving the people freedom of speech or have I been sleeping these past 80 years?

 

[PolySciGuy]

i would just like to point out: I went to germany over the summer (yes world cup was amazing) but before the games i had tickets for, I stayed with a fairly rural family, possibly more akin to our suburbia. However, they were deeply ashamed at the Nazi atrocities. They all believed I judged them as evil, and deserving of death, until I explained that the world has forgiven their generation. Many of the origional Nazi's are just now dying, without them telling their grandkids of their mistakes, who will stop them from repeating them. Germany is just now recovering from an economic and social backwater. This kind of denial could really caused some major damage to the average teen who really doesn't want to believe that his/her grandfather was a murderer.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

i would just like to point out: I went to germany over the summer (yes world cup was amazing) but before the games i had tickets for, I stayed with a fairly rural family, possibly more akin to our suburbia. However, they were deeply ashamed at the Nazi atrocities. They all believed I judged them as evil, and deserving of death, until I explained that the world has forgiven their generation. Many of the origional Nazi's are just now dying, without them telling their grandkids of their mistakes, who will stop them from repeating them. Germany is just now recovering from an economic and social backwater. This kind of denial could really caused some major damage to the average teen who really doesn't want to believe that his/her grandfather was a murderer.

It is inappropriate to call accuse a German of being a Nazi because you don't like what he/she said/did. It is akin to prejudicial bigotry, just like calling any race/ethnicity/religion/color, names. Of course, if he/she is a Nazi, all bets are off.

 

[Just Me 2]

You make excellent points there. However I still disagree with the whole conception that anyone who kills a Jew is a nazi. Aren't you forgetting the fact that ordinary soldiers were ORDERED to kill jews? And by whom?

Testimonies of ex-German soldiers prove that they were forcibally ordered to kill jews against their own wishes. Now the question I have for you is if a gun was to your head and you were ordered to shoot an innocent individual or face death yourself, knowing well that the individual was going to be perish within minutes after your death anyway, wouldn't you just pull the trigger?

The point here is that just because you do something doesn't necessarily mean that you are that something. In the end, as I stated before, those individuals were fighting a war for their own evolution (as a nation). Evolution means survival of the fittest. So is it even just that the United States invades 'terrorist states' and gets praised for doing so? The way I see it the war on terrorism and the holocaust has many similarities, just not on the same scale.

Seeing as the original post was about holocaust deniers, I will go so far as to say that anyone who denies the holocaust is a nazi in their own right. A derogative nazi for that matter no better than Adolf Hitler himself. They shouldn't be imprisoned for their right of speech (as occurs in Germany and some other states), however they should be placed through an intensive course focusing on the holocaust. How could the official records of 6 million jewish fatalities and a further 3 - 5 million unnofficial ones be nothing more than a conspiracy or falsified information?

I know many were ordered to kill or it would have been their life and yes I agree I can't deny that I would probably have killed that innocent person to save myself and my family but I would also expect to pay for my crimes because in the end it was a crime. I also truly believe that the majority of the soldiers doing the killing did it out of pure hate and a frenzy mentality.

What I can't understand is why anyone one would want to be called a Nazi now knowing what it represents to the majority of the world?

 

[Gardener]

It is inappropriate to call accuse a German of being a Nazi because you don't like what he/she said/did. It is akin to prejudicial bigotry, just like calling any race/ethnicity/religion/color, names. Of course, if he/she is a Nazi, all bets are off.

It isn't prejudicial bigotry to respond to prejudicial bigotry, so be careful that you don't fall into the turnspeak offered by these bigots who try to characterize anybody who does not share their views as bigots.

As far as Germany is concerned, much of the current epidemic of antisemitic attacks (up 60% in just a year) is arising from the influence of the Muslim Brotherhood that is so well established there and which has learned to tailor it's rhetoric in such a way as to capitalize on this turnspeak technique. Anyone who does not follow their hateful, totalitarian ideology is an "Islamiphobe", and coupled with the old traces of antisemitism among Germans, this new hybrid meme has taken hold. Fear of being "racist" leads people to support these genocidal racists because the social taboos against being perceived a racist are too strong.

I go with the "if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck" approach.When people display a consistant pattern whereby they continually lie, bait, insuinuate, and otherwise act to completely support the Islamist point of view, I consider them a Nazi whether or not they live in Germany.That some do live in Germany is beside the point, as is the fact that their hateful creed does not follow the exact definition of Nazi to a tee. That is just a technicality. Right here on this board there are people spinning their sick tales of jews acting as puppet masters secretly pulling strings. They never miss an opportunity to justify the attitudes of the Mullahs or deflect criticism away from their genocidal ambitions. They prevaricate continually,always leading the blame for all the troubles of the world back to Jewish people. Oops, I'm sorry,make that "Zionists" wink wink.

The old scourge is back, man, and just because it has mutated and now dresses itself up different clothes, what else can one now call it? I'm going to call it Nazi, myself. Sure, these things no longer run around wearing swasticas and approach issues from a different direction, but does that really make much of a difference when the results are the same?

 

[PolySciGuy]

It is inappropriate to call accuse a German of being a Nazi because you don't like what he/she said/did. It is akin to prejudicial bigotry, just like calling any race/ethnicity/religion/color, names. Of course, if he/she is a Nazi, all bets are off.

If you'll notice, the only people I called Nazis were people that were actually Nazis, I am not making things up here, nor am I generalizing, I am speaking from personal experience.

And for all intents and purposes you may read Nazi in my first post as Ex-Nazi referring to anyone who was previously belonging to the National Socialist party in Germany during WWII

 

[dragonslayer]

we need to remember that what is the norm in Texas, may not be the norm in Germany or France etc.

Germany when it was under the nazi rule of Hitler, did some terrible terrible things. Hitlers goal was to kill all of the Jews. He states this clearly in Mein Kampf. Germany does not want its people to forget the terrible things done, and maybe do them again. Germany under hitler murdered millions of people.
Jews, Gypsys, Russians, Poles etc. This had nothing to do with war. It was not battles, it was pure cold hearted murder of the worst kind. Under Hitler in 1940, Germany was an obsessed crazy nation which committed the worst crimes imaginable. Over 50 million people died because of Hitler, and only 6 or 7 million were Jews. If Hitler had won the war, every Jew in Europe would have died.
Do you want this repeated? Do you want forget that Germany did some of the worst crimes against humanity ever heard of. How do we protect ourselves from repeating this if we forget and deny?

Germany now is a wonderful country. They are a marvelous nation with great people. I love and respect modern Germany.

I respect their right to not allow people to forget the horrible things their ancestors committed to be forgotten. These horrible events cannot ever be allowed to happen again. Yet some how, I know it will. Somewhere---- Look at Africa, and Cambodia,

I am a christian man, and we must never forget. From what I have read and from the documentaries I have seen, Hitler, was alway obsessed with Killing Jews, even with the soviet Army surrounding his bunker in Berlin. According to records it was one of the last things he spoke of without remorse before he committed Suicide.