Legalize All Illegals

[Awesome!]

The government isn't serious about addressing this issue, so in my opinion the best way to deal with illegals already here working is to give them legal residence, and offer guest worker programs for the ones waiting to cross the border, so we can tax that labor, and reduce our labor costs domestically. Your thoughts?

 

[bub]

I don'k know anything about US work laws, but if they are legal they will have to be paid with the minimum legal wage. That's less interresting for the US companies which are hiring them at a lower price.

 

[Awesome!]

I don'k know anything about US work laws, but if they are legal they will have to be paid with the minimum legal wage. That's less interresting for the US companies which are hiring them at a lower price.

I think with guest worker programs U.S. companies should be able to set the wage. I think we have a lot to work with here versus 5.00 dollars or less a day if even that in Mexico.

 

[Axl Turwalt]

The government isn't serious about addressing this issue, so in my opinion the best way to deal with illegals already here working is to give them legal residence, and offer guest worker programs for the ones waiting to cross the border, so we can tax that labor, and reduce our labor costs domestically. Your thoughts?

Why would you grant illegal aliens legalised residency? In my opinion, thats what causes the problems in the first place. A couple of hundred people flee their nation to set themeselves up in another nation. The fundamental point I am trying to make here is that you have no or very limited history of those individuals. For all you know they could be a bunch of child molestors in their old country, running from the law. I say that nations should crack down harder on illegal aliens and send them back to their nation. Afterall, if you flee your country of birth without a legal and valid reason, why should you be given the right that every other individual has?

I'm not wanting to sound aggressive or biased here, rather I am quite liberal on this issue. However the reasons to why the crime rate is so high in nations like the United States is because of illegal immigration. And I am seeing it all here in Australia aswell. Illegal immigrants, becoming legalised citizens, would diminish the number of employment opportunities for those who live below the official national poverty line.

 

[Just Me 2]

The government isn't serious about addressing this issue, so in my opinion the best way to deal with illegals already here working is to give them legal residence, and offer guest worker programs for the ones waiting to cross the border, so we can tax that labor, and reduce our labor costs domestically. Your thoughts?

Why should people who broke the law be given a free pass? This would also only encourage others to break the law. Sorry but this IMO is NOT the solution. I have no problem with a guest worker program one that keeps VERY tight control of the workers and the companies.

 

[cherokee]

Legalize All Illegals

Sorry but that's a stupid idea.

They need to go thru the legal process to be come American citizens.
if they don’t like it that’s too fooking bad!

 

[imprtnrd]

I say send them ALL back and make them enter the legal way! All how ever millions of them. The Mexican govt. would crap there pants!!! And not just that country but ALL illegals! I too am usually liberal, but not on this issue either!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Rogue]

The government isn't serious about addressing this issue, so in my opinion the best way to deal with illegals already here working is to give them legal residence, and offer guest worker programs for the ones waiting to cross the border, so we can tax that labor, and reduce our labor costs domestically. Your thoughts?

Rather than calling you stupid, I'll just call you simply naive and uninformed. You apparently don't have the sightest idea about the consequences are of g iving amnesty to 20 to 30 million illegals, guest worker programs (which we already have) , and, of course, not securing the border so another wave of 20million illegals can break in hoping for amnesty too for themselves, do you?

 

[BrewBreaker12]

Don't forget that none of you here (unless you're Native American) wouldn't be here unless it was for illegal immigration.

 

[Rogue]

Don't forget that none of you here (unless you're Native American) wouldn't be here unless it was for illegal immigration.

Are you an upcoming pro illegal progagandist just getting started? Lots of people before you have made the same dumb comment and have gotten shot down repeatedly.

Not a single one of my immigrant ancestors came here illegally. Can you say the same thing?

 

[PolySciGuy]

The government isn't serious about addressing this issue, so in my opinion the best way to deal with illegals already here working is to give them legal residence, and offer guest worker programs for the ones waiting to cross the border, so we can tax that labor, and reduce our labor costs domestically. Your thoughts?

couldn't agree more with the starting question, you failed to address, however, how to KEEP illegals from crossing, offering a taxed legal incentive, probably won't deter most from crossing illegally and remaining tax-free

 

[Willow]

The government isn't serious about addressing this issue, so in my opinion the best way to deal with illegals already here working is to give them legal residence, and offer guest worker programs for the ones waiting to cross the border, so we can tax that labor, and reduce our labor costs domestically. Your thoughts?

If they ever did that then I want all the money back that it cost me to come here legally.

Look the point of legal immigration is not to discriminate but to protect Americans. There's basically three things they check out
1. Your health, the immigrant is checked for Tb and other highly infectious diseases, so they can be treated before they put any Americans at risk.
2. Your money, immigrants are supposed to agree that they will not burden the economy or social services for at least seven years as they have not contributed to the taxes that pay for those services. this however can be wavered for those persons who would be in extreme danger if they return to their own countries. Makes sense to me.
3. Your record. For the sake of all Americans we need to know if the people coming into our country are murderers, rapists, child molesters etc. Basic commonsense.

Immigration laws are not this horrible mean nasty set of rules, it's a basic commonsense guideline to protect Americans. And it really isn't hard to do it legally.
If for some reason there is some sort of Amnesty granted I think the immigrants still need for the safety of all Americans to be checked out for those three things.

 

[PolySciGuy]

in response to the above: good luck! That is an ENORMOUS undertaking especially considering some illegal immigrants aren't exactly in the phone book. And if they are going to come here illegaly in the first place they probably 1. Have a reason for not doing it leagaly and 2. posess the skills to dodge our government workers

 

[Awesome!]

Rather than calling you stupid, I'll just call you simply naive and uninformed. You apparently don't have the sightest idea about the consequences are of g iving amnesty to 20 to 30 million illegals, guest worker programs (which we already have) , and, of course, not securing the border so another wave of 20million illegals can break in hoping for amnesty too for themselves, do you?

Right, you don't want to create incentive to break the law, but I think we already are with 200-300 illegals in front of home depot every morning getting work with hardly any enforcement of the law knowing full well that they are illegal.

 

[Awesome!]

This is a terrible idea. The reason why there is market for illegal immigrant labor is because they do not have all of the legal rights of US citizens (but in reality, and de facto, as product of the whole "Oh, you don't want that machine to eat your hand? Well maybe I should give the INS a call!" effect).
So instead, the effect of this proposed policy would be significantly more illegal immigration (as we would've proven that we have absolutely no intent of controling immigration, and any removal of a disincentive is in effect an incentive), but these immigrants would instead just increase our unemployment rate (as they would have to compete with our unskilled workers on a level playing field, and barring there being more winners, more contestants just equates to more losers), while there would still be illegals coming over and not going through the bureaucratic hoops and working beneath the minimum wage, untaxed, as there would still be significant demand for unskilled labor at wages at all resembling actual market equilibrium, and so **** will just be much worse. There are no benefits to this policy, it has about as much merit as arbitrarily stabbing yourself in the eye with a fork.

I totally disagree, you can work in America if you truly want to work. Cheaper labor/cheaper production = more growth for business.

 

[Awesome!]

If they ever did that then I want all the money back that it cost me to come here legally.

Look the point of legal immigration is not to discriminate but to protect Americans. There's basically three things they check out
1. Your health, the immigrant is checked for Tb and other highly infectious diseases, so they can be treated before they put any Americans at risk.
2. Your money, immigrants are supposed to agree that they will not burden the economy or social services for at least seven years as they have not contributed to the taxes that pay for those services. this however can be wavered for those persons who would be in extreme danger if they return to their own countries. Makes sense to me.
3. Your record. For the sake of all Americans we need to know if the people coming into our country are murderers, rapists, child molesters etc. Basic commonsense.

Immigration laws are not this horrible mean nasty set of rules, it's a basic commonsense guideline to protect Americans. And it really isn't hard to do it legally.
If for some reason there is some sort of Amnesty granted I think the immigrants still need for the safety of all Americans to be checked out for those three things.

20-30 million immigrants mostly hardworking. Let's say 99% aren't murderers, rapists, lepers etc. Would that then be o.k. to grant them amnesty, because you as an American would be protected if we were able to screen them right, so we can then know if they do need treatment for t.b. etc. etc. or do we keep our current standard that obviously isn't working?

 

[Awesome!]

couldn't agree more with the starting question, you failed to address, however, how to KEEP illegals from crossing, offering a taxed legal incentive, probably won't deter most from crossing illegally and remaining tax-free

Right it won't deter them, but enforcement would. I could go to home depot tomorrow morning, or to the strip mall in front of denny's down the street and round up 500 right now if we were serious about enforcement, but no, there are restrictions due to civil rights, or some b.s. that won't let us enforce the law. So I feel that a process to give amnesty to productive immigrants, and guest worker programs is the answer, and strict enforcement from here on out for any others before they are able to establish themselves in the U.S. but they would have a guest worker program opportunity which would create an incentive to come here and work in the program, because a taxed guest worker program with consistent labor from a mexican's point of view versus 4.00 a day in mexico, or inconsistent tax free labor in the U.S.with the fear of always being in jeapardy of being deported in my view would reduce illegal immigration.

 

[Awesome!]

Why would you grant illegal aliens legalised residency? In my opinion, thats what causes the problems in the first place. A couple of hundred people flee their nation to set themeselves up in another nation. The fundamental point I am trying to make here is that you have no or very limited history of those individuals. For all you know they could be a bunch of child molestors in their old country, running from the law. I say that nations should crack down harder on illegal aliens and send them back to their nation. Afterall, if you flee your country of birth without a legal and valid reason, why should you be given the right that every other individual has?

I'm not wanting to sound aggressive or biased here, rather I am quite liberal on this issue. However the reasons to why the crime rate is so high in nations like the United States is because of illegal immigration. And I am seeing it all here in Australia aswell. Illegal immigrants, becoming legalised citizens, would diminish the number of employment opportunities for those who live below the official national poverty line.

I'm all about enforcement, but not knocking down doors like a fascist state to send the illegals home mentality. I think we need to grant amnesty to the illegals that have been here, established themselves, due to the real culprit, our federal government which has failed us on this issue, which is fine, admit it move forward with strict enforcement after giving amnesty to the illegals that are already established and moving the ones that aren't into guest worker programs. After we start this process, if your Pablo jumping over that wall, or caught in front of my house at home depot looking for work, you will be arrested, sent back to mexico etc.

 

[Awesome!]

Except you're forgetting that we have a little thing called the minimum wage, and many other regulations on the transaction of employment, and that the presence of such regulations creates black labor markets. There is a major issue with this, and this is that if a citizen of the United States enters into a black market job, he is not in any trouble if he gets caught in most situations, but the employer is in trouble, thus creating a means for the worker to blackmail his way into getting more, so thus obviously, you do not hire US citizens for black market jobs.
And that's the thing, illegal immigrants only have access to this market because they're illegal immigrants, if they were given amnesty they would not have access to these markets (as the employer would no longer have something to counter-blackmail the employee, which up till then had canceled the employee's ability to blackmail out). And so what is there then? You lose your job and you get sent back to Mexico, and then you sneak back in and don't register with the government, and you're once again an illegal immigrant.

Your right without enforcement there is no incentive to follow the law. I disagree that illegals only have access to markets because they are illegal. They have access because they are hard working which you aren't factoring. You would be hardworking if there wasn't any employment here in America, or you were making pennies per hour, and then you heard through the grapevine that in Canada you could make 50 x more than what you make in America.

 

[Awesome!]

No man, you're failing to differentiate illegal labor markets from legal labor markets. It is possible to hire illegal immigrants in legal labor markets. ****, I live in Iowa, they're all over here, all the factory towns, and yes, they work hard and do good work, and thus they get jobs in the legal labor market, despite their illegal status.

That is the legal market. And even in the legal labor market illegal immigrants have the unfair advantage of not being able to unionize (I know, seems odd to refer to that as an advantage, but such is the nature of the unskilled labor market, if he's only gonna hire one of us, and you and I have equal skills, he's gonna hire the one that will cost him less, and I am more likely to cost him less if he knows for sure that I am not able to unionize, while you are)

The illegal labor market are jobs that do not abide by the various laws and regulations associated with commerce, most notably on the issue of employer/employee transactions. Protection from dangerous work environments, doing certain jobs in illegal working conditions, work that pays less than the minimum wage, this is the market which illegal immigrants have access to as a product of their illegal status.

And it's not a far jump to the drug market. Drugs are entirely a black market, and thus also will only hire people qualified to work in the black market (and a major qualification is the knowledge that you're not gonna rat them all out, something that can be easily provided by being an illegal immigrant, as to rat them out you'd likewise sacrifice your job, and almost certainly get sent back to Mexico.


That's what I'm talking about.

Right, we recently tried to hire on a core leadership team as permanent workers, however they haven't produced the paperwork necessary to make them full time workers, yet they were able to get through the temp agencies screening process, so yes I realize we could be employing illegals using their cousins SS# etc. through the temp agency, so therefore illegal workers in a legal labor market. I will hire anyone who is productive, however in so cal here not that many american's will do the production work. It's hard work, and whitey won't do this work for 7.00 an hour, but our mexican workers will, and we have to raise the hourly rate for key workers and leads etc from time to time to retain the best producers for us. I don't understand the union argument, and unions don't need to exist anymore as far as I'm concerned, maybe it's that way in Iowa, but I could care less. I'll hire whoever is producing bottom line.

For the illegal market, I think guest worker programs are the solution with strict enforcement. The wage would be agreed prior to the worker arriving in the U.S. so no more bartering at home depot.

and then drugs. Of course, but with true enforcement I think we would could reduce this complex issue in half.

 

[Willow]

20-30 million immigrants mostly hardworking. Let's say 99% aren't murderers, rapists, lepers etc. Would that then be o.k. to grant them amnesty, because you as an American would be protected if we were able to screen them right, so we can then know if they do need treatment for t.b. etc. etc. or do we keep our current standard that obviously isn't working?

The standard would work if it was being followed but it's not being followed, somehow, the INS has gotten this horrible reputation when all they do is check out the things in an immigrants life that may be a danger to America's security health or finances. I don't think that's too much to ask, if an immigrant legal or otherwise does not have the best interest of America in hand then they don't need to be here.
I don't agree with Amnesty because it would be almost impossible to screen all those people. It also would be very costly. The fees I paid to Immigration covered what they needed to do to check me out. I was being facetious when I said I wanted my money back, I feel as an immigrant that since I was the one who wanted to be here I should be the one to pay for all the work done to ensure that I was not a risk to this country. I think amnesty will only work if those immigrants who are granted amnesty pay for their portion of the paperwork and security checks. Maybe they could institute some sort of loan program to those immigrants who are granted amnesty so they can pay off the cost of their immigration over time (it's about 3000$) but either way America does not need to pay out any more monies for people who have so little respect for this country and it's citizens that they are here illegally whether they are hardworking is irrelevant.
The sheer number of illegals is staggering, I don't know what realistically can be done to make them legal or deport them. This is a classic example of shutting the barn door after the horse has left. We do need to secure our borders better though, this is getting a little ridiculous.

Right, we recently tried to hire on a core leadership team as permanent workers, however they haven't produced the paperwork necessary to make them full time workers, yet they were able to get through the temp agencies screening process,

I can see how that happened, the SSN cards for everyone look the same, they should have something on them to indicate the status of the person, (green card, temp resident, perm resident or citizen). When I first got mine, I could have very easily been hired for a job and not told them that they needed my Immigration documentation. No one would have questioned me. It's really based on a sort of honour system. The person who is filling out the application is honour bound to fill out the part that asks if you have the right to work in the US, but if they don't fill that out or fill it and check "yes" and the employer doesn't check it out, it's all moot anyway. I had one job years ago where I went and photocopied my documentation for my employer myself because she didn't bother to check her out herself and I wanted everything to be above board. We need to make it easier for employers to check out the status of who they are hiring.

 

[Awesome!]

Man, but that's the thing, your dealing with illegals who can successfully compete in the legal market. That's something completely different, and were policies in Mexico acceptable, the ideal here would be that you could eventually actually move the plant to a country where your labor costs would be lower.

But if borders are not secure, and if immigration is not controlled, all this does is allow the human nature towards virus-like behavior to blossom. Free of borders, people will go where the jobs are, and so any labor market will be overflowed with applicants, thus low labor costs (a good thing). At the same time you have the same effects to the workers (for whom low labor costs are a bad thing), and the end result will always be that those who get the jobs will end up with next to nothing, while those who don't get the jobs have actually nothing, and will leach upon social programs until there is nothing left, and then they all move on to produce the same effect where jobs are now.

You appear to be in one of the rare situations which actually fits Bush's explanation of immigration, in which the immigrants are just willing to do jobs that Americans aren't. But to mistake the benefit you see in lower labor costs for net social benefit is to show a lack of understanding at the issues at play in illegal immigration.

The ideal is productive illegals to be legal workers which doesn't bring about unemployment. Your not factoring upward mobility. I was the guy on the line at 7.00 an hour working two jobs 10 years ago. Back to my point, if you really want to work, NOT COMPETE, work, you will find employment regardless of the illegal issue.

The main issue at play is lack of enforcement. There is no control right now, that is why I think amnesty, and then guest worker programs would be the political solution. We tell Mexico: Look, we will start granting amnesty, and set up guest worker programs, but no more workers coming over here unless it's with the guest worker program.

 

[Awesome!]

The standard would work if it was being followed but it's not being followed, somehow, the INS has gotten this horrible reputation when all they do is check out the things in an immigrants life that may be a danger to America's security health or finances. I don't think that's too much to ask, if an immigrant legal or otherwise does not have the best interest of America in hand then they don't need to be here.
I don't agree with Amnesty because it would be almost impossible to screen all those people. It also would be very costly. The fees I paid to Immigration covered what they needed to do to check me out. I was being facetious when I said I wanted my money back, I feel as an immigrant that since I was the one who wanted to be here I should be the one to pay for all the work done to ensure that I was not a risk to this country. I think amnesty will only work if those immigrants who are granted amnesty pay for their portion of the paperwork and security checks. Maybe they could institute some sort of loan program to those immigrants who are granted amnesty so they can pay off the cost of their immigration over time (it's about 3000$) but either way America does not need to pay out any more monies for people who have so little respect for this country and it's citizens that they are here illegally whether they are hardworking is irrelevant.
The sheer number of illegals is staggering, I don't know what realistically can be done to make them legal or deport them. This is a classic example of shutting the barn door after the horse has left. We do need to secure our borders better though, this is getting a little ridiculous.
I can see how that happened, the SSN cards for everyone look the same, they should have something on them to indicate the status of the person, (green card, temp resident, perm resident or citizen). When I first got mine, I could have very easily been hired for a job and not told them that they needed my Immigration documentation. No one would have questioned me. It's really based on a sort of honour system. The person who is filling out the application is honour bound to fill out the part that asks if you have the right to work in the US, but if they don't fill that out or fill it and check "yes" and the employer doesn't check it out, it's all moot anyway. I had one job years ago where I went and photocopied my documentation for my employer myself because she didn't bother to check her out herself and I wanted everything to be above board. We need to make it easier for employers to check out the status of who they are hiring.

I feel that enforcement of 20-30 million illegals, TRUE enforcement is not possible morally or politically especially with Mexico our #1 trading partner, however a comprehensive solution like guest worker programs which helps both countries, the U.S. and Mexico and any other country due to reduced labor cost, better wages for the immigrants could be implemented without so much social unrest, or Mexico going to the U.N. etc After this plan is enacted, any of this other b.s., the home depot line if you will, companies hiring under the table etc. would be ENFORCED.

This seems logical to me factoring all the issues, otherwise seems like the same old b.s. no U.S. president will address it due to surviving politically as well as risk the economic issues with a pissed off Mexico etc. and riots in L.A. or every major us city I suppose

 

[BrewBreaker12]

I'm sure murdering millions of Native Americans and stealing their land was really all fair and legal.

 

[Rogue]

Why should people who broke the law be given a free pass? This would also only encourage others to break the law. Sorry but this IMO is NOT the solution. I have no problem with a guest worker program one that keeps VERY tight control of the workers and the companies.

I agree. An amnesty would just cause another wave of illegals breaking in hoping to get amnesty for themselves too.

What about putting overwhelming pressure on bush to FORCE him to start enforcing existing immigration laws. A novel idea?

The trouble with guest worker programs is that none of them work BECAUSE the government is INCAPABLE of keeping even a LOOSE control over these workers.

"Temporary" guest workers is an oxymoron isn't it? The "temporary" guest workers will either have as many anchor babies as they can while they are here to create ties to the US, OR they will simply dissappear into the illegal alien underground when their visas expire.