Legality of Vaccine Mandates

[NWRatCon]

As the Supreme Court weighs OSHA authority, I've looked as deeply into the issue as I've been able. From a legal standpoint, it doesn't seem to be a close call. OSHA has the authority, and has followed appropriate administrative processes. That is not to say the Supreme Court will rule that way, as legal and constitutional niceties no longer control the decision making processes of the conservative majority.

I've also read the arguments against the mandates and they run the gamut from ridiculous to specious. They are based upon philosophical (libertarian) ideology, not legal standards.

So what are the legal bases? First, does Congress have the authority to create OSHA? Yes, both under the interstate commerce clause and the general welfare clause. Second, did Congress delegate authority in the matter? Again, yes. Explicitly. Third, are the mandates within that delegation of authority? Again, yes. That should determine the issue, but it won't.

 

[Mycroft]

As the Supreme Court weighs OSHA authority, I've looked as deeply into the issue as I've been able. From a legal standpoint, it doesn't seem to be a close call. OSHA has the authority, and has followed appropriate administrative processes. That is not to say the Supreme Court will rule that way, as legal and constitutional niceties no longer control the decision making processes of the conservative majority.

I've also read the arguments against the mandates and they run the gamut from ridiculous to specious. They are based upon philosophical (libertarian) ideology, not legal standards.

So what are the legal bases? First, does Congress have the authority to create OSHA? Yes, both under the interstate commerce clause and the general welfare clause. Second, did Congress delegate authority in the matter? Again, yes. Explicitly. Third, are the mandates within that delegation of authority? Again, yes. That should determine the issue, but it won't.

I think it'll be hard for OSHA to justify a covid vaccine mandate when they couldn't/wouldn't enact or justify an H1N1 vaccine mandate back in 2009.

OSHA's position on mandatory flu shots for employees. | Occupational Safety and Health Administration

www.osha.gov

 

[roguenuke]

I think it'll be hard for OSHA to justify a covid vaccine mandate when they couldn't/wouldn't enact or justify an H1N1 vaccine mandate back in 2009.

OSHA's position on mandatory flu shots for employees. | Occupational Safety and Health Administration

www.osha.gov

Neither of those have killed hundreds of thousands of citizens for each of 2 years straight.

 

[GummyVitamins]

As the Supreme Court weighs OSHA authority, I've looked as deeply into the issue as I've been able. From a legal standpoint, it doesn't seem to be a close call. OSHA has the authority, and has followed appropriate administrative processes. That is not to say the Supreme Court will rule that way, as legal and constitutional niceties no longer control the decision making processes of the conservative majority.

I've also read the arguments against the mandates and they run the gamut from ridiculous to specious. They are based upon philosophical (libertarian) ideology, not legal standards.

So what are the legal bases? First, does Congress have the authority to create OSHA? Yes, both under the interstate commerce clause and the general welfare clause. Second, did Congress delegate authority in the matter? Again, yes. Explicitly. Third, are the mandates within that delegation of authority? Again, yes. That should determine the issue, but it won't.

Can you show me where OSHA explicitly has the authority to implement a vaccine mandate?

 

[Mycroft]

Neither of those have killed hundreds of thousands of citizens for each of 2 years straight.

50 million Americans were infected by H1N1.

 

[roguenuke]

50 million Americans were infected by H1N1.

How many died?

2009 H1N1 Pandemic

A summary of key events of the 2009 H1N1 pandemic and the CDC's response activities between April 2009 and April 2010.

www.cdc.gov

Now compare that to Covid.

Also, as soon as a vaccine for H1N1 was available, I was mandated to get it with the annual flu vaccine.

 

[Fletch]

How many died?

2009 H1N1 Pandemic

A summary of key events of the 2009 H1N1 pandemic and the CDC's response activities between April 2009 and April 2010.

www.cdc.gov

Now compare that to Covid.

Also, as soon as a vaccine for H1N1 was available, I was mandated to get it with the annual flu vaccine.

75% of people dying from Covid are over 65 and not in the workforce. Plus, I thouhgt you libs were anti-authoritarianism and loved democracy. What happened to that? All of the sudden you dont want elected officials to make such massive decisions but want it left to unelected, unaccountable bureaucrats. I guess you libs love to be dictated to so long as its your people doing he dictating.

 

[Fletch]

As the Supreme Court weighs OSHA authority, I've looked as deeply into the issue as I've been able. From a legal standpoint, it doesn't seem to be a close call. OSHA has the authority, and has followed appropriate administrative processes. That is not to say the Supreme Court will rule that way, as legal and constitutional niceties no longer control the decision making processes of the conservative majority.

I've also read the arguments against the mandates and they run the gamut from ridiculous to specious. They are based upon philosophical (libertarian) ideology, not legal standards.

So what are the legal bases? First, does Congress have the authority to create OSHA? Yes, both under the interstate commerce clause and the general welfare clause. Second, did Congress delegate authority in the matter? Again, yes. Explicitly. Third, are the mandates within that delegation of authority? Again, yes. That should determine the issue, but it won't.

You claim to have looked 'deeply into the issue' but offer no support for your conclusions.

 

[roguenuke]

75% of people dying from Covid are over 65 and not in the workforce. Plus, I thouhgt you libs were anti-authoritarianism and loved democracy. What happened to that? All of the sudden you dont want elected officials to make such massive decisions but want it left to unelected, unaccountable bureaucrats. I guess you libs love to be dictated to so long as its your people doing he dictating.

How about you not group me in with your imagined view of any group. I've supported vaccine mandates in general, with only a few being "maybe we don't need that one" but that was for something like chickenpox, and I wouldn't fight it, just don't think it is as necessary as the others. There can be no question though that it has reduced cases.

I'm not willing to sacrifice those who may have ailments or working past certain ages or not as healthy to the god of libertarianism, which is something I've never been.

 

[NWRatCon]

Can you show me where OSHA explicitly has the authority to implement a vaccine mandate?

Since you asked: 29 U.S.C. § 654, 5(a)1: Each employer shall furnish to each of his employees employment and a place of employment which are free from recognized hazards that are causing or are likely to cause death or serious physical harm to his employees."

29 U.S.C. § 654, 5(a)2: Each employer shall comply with occupational safety and health standards promulgated under this act.

29 U.S.C. § 654, 5(b): Each employee shall comply with occupational safety and health standards and all rules, regulations, and orders issued pursuant to this Act which are applicable to his own actions and conduct.

 

[NWRatCon]

How many died?

2009 H1N1 Pandemic

A summary of key events of the 2009 H1N1 pandemic and the CDC's response activities between April 2009 and April 2010.

www.cdc.gov

Now compare that to Covid.

Also, as soon as a vaccine for H1N1 was available, I was mandated to get it with the annual flu vaccine.

How soon they forget.

 

[NWRatCon]

I knew when I posted this the thread would be inundated with specious argumentation by specious posters. In that expectation, I was not disappointed. As the discussion progresses, I am just as confident that the arguments will become less connected with reality and more specious.

Let's start with the general duty clause: 1) is COVID a "recognized hazard"? I'd submit, obviously. It is a highly contagious pathogen that has become the 3rd-most fatal cause of death in the United States for 2 years. 2) Are there known measures for limiting fatalities and hospitalizations (which are workplace hazards)? Again, yes, the vaccination being the most effective measure, with testing and masking as extremely valuable supplements. 3) Are the measures being mandated by OSHA directly relevant to the workplace environment? Yes. Are they likely to be effective in mitigating hazards in the workplace? Yes.

There is a whole body of law relevant to the issue of relevance, accommodation, etc. which could become relevant (assuming the SCOTUS doesn't simply ignore it, as it is wont to do), but the OSHA has already addressed most of them. Legally, OSHA is on very solid ground. It rarely needs to use its EMERGENCY powers, having only done so 10 times in its 50 years of existence, but it has, and successfully. This should be one of them.

 

[GummyVitamins]

Since you asked: 29 U.S.C. § 654, 5(a)1: Each employer shall furnish to each of his employees employment and a place of employment which are free from recognized hazards that are causing or are likely to cause death or serious physical harm to his employees."

29 U.S.C. § 654, 5(a)2: Each employer shall comply with occupational safety and health standards promulgated under this act.

29 U.S.C. § 654, 5(b): Each employee shall comply with occupational safety and health standards and all rules, regulations, and orders issued pursuant to this Act which are applicable to his own actions and conduct.

This is absurd. Hilariously absurd.

 

[GummyVitamins]

I knew when I posted this the thread would be inundated with specious argumentation by specious posters. In that expectation, I was not disappointed.

12 posts, 4 of them from you. You should look up the definition of the word inundated.

 

[NWRatCon]

Here's another legal view:

O’Neill Briefing: OSHA’s New Vaccination Rule, Its Legal Basis, And What It Means for Businesses and Workers​

"The agency’s authority to regulate workplace exposure to biological hazards is well-established, and the agency has identified hazards such as bloodborne pathogens and now SARS-CoV-2 as “toxic materials or harmful physical agents” under the act. The risk to workers from a potentially lethal infectious disease is at least as great as a workplace injury. OSHA found that unvaccinated workers face grave danger from exposure to COVID-19 in the workplace. This finding is based on evidence of severe health outcomes associated with COVID-19 infection and the prevalence of infections in employee populations."

 

[GummyVitamins]

Here's another legal view:

O’Neill Briefing: OSHA’s New Vaccination Rule, Its Legal Basis, And What It Means for Businesses and Workers​

"The agency’s authority to regulate workplace exposure to biological hazards is well-established, and the agency has identified hazards such as bloodborne pathogens and now SARS-CoV-2 as “toxic materials or harmful physical agents” under the act. The risk to workers from a potentially lethal infectious disease is at least as great as a workplace injury. OSHA found that unvaccinated workers face grave danger from exposure to COVID-19 in the workplace. This finding is based on evidence of severe health outcomes associated with COVID-19 infection and the prevalence of infections in employee populations."

Was this written by Sotomayor? This author has gone full derp repeatedly in this article and did a wonderful job proving the case against the legality of the mandate.


The federal government is not a business.


The federal government is not a state or locality.


Full derp.

Instead of citing partisan idiots replacing their political views for legal precedent, why not try making your own argument?

 

[weaver2]

This is absurd. Hilariously absurd.

Child labor didn't end in the US until 1936. If these are the conditions for children in factories and mines what did conditions for adults look like? Why are the OSHA laws ridiculously absurd.

 

[NWRatCon]

Was this written by Sotomayor? This author has gone full derp repeatedly in this article and did a wonderful job proving the case against the legality of the mandate.

View attachment 67368476
The federal government is not a business.

View attachment 67368477
The federal government is not a state or locality.

View attachment 67368478
Full derp.

Instead of citing partisan idiots replacing their political views for legal precedent, why not try making your own argument?

If you don't know what the **** you're talking about (and you clearly don't), you're better off, as Mark Twain wrote, not to remove those doubts. That's a truly pathetic effort at trying to be logical. You're right, on one point, though. Your post was a "full derp".

 

[NWRatCon]

12 posts, 4 of them from you. You should look up the definition of the word inundated.

You, alone, constitute inundation. As Scientific American warned regarding your posts, Sewage Floods Likely to Rise.

 

[MaryP]

75% of people dying from Covid are over 65 and not in the workforce. Plus, I thouhgt you libs were anti-authoritarianism and loved democracy. What happened to that? All of the sudden you dont want elected officials to make such massive decisions but want it left to unelected, unaccountable bureaucrats. I guess you libs love to be dictated to so long as its your people doing he dictating.

Biden made the decision and he was elected.

 

[GummyVitamins]

Child labor didn't end in the US until 1936. If these are the conditions for children in factories and mines what did conditions for adults look like? Why are the OSHA laws ridiculously absurd.

OSHA isn't absurd. Claiming there's a legal justification for a vaccine mandate within OSHA is absurd.

 

[GummyVitamins]

If you don't know what the **** you're talking about (and you clearly don't), you're better off, as Mark Twain wrote, not to remove those doubts. That's a truly pathetic effort at trying to be logical. You're right, on one point, though. Your post was a "full derp".

You, alone, constitute inundation. As Scientific American warned regarding your posts, Sewage Floods Likely to Rise.

I'm noticing you can't refute what I'm saying so you're lashing out with even more stupidity than the text of the links you've been providing.

Citing Jacobson is problematic to begin with. It's been defunct for a very long time and considered a horrible decision because it led to justifying eugenics. In any event, it is prior to OSHA so how can you use Jacobson to justify OSHA imposing a vaccine mandate? Did the right for a vaccine mandate exist in OSHA's regulatory authority or did it exist in Jacobson? Running to Jacobson has been very common for the authoritarians recently, but it's a judicial road that has been closed for a long time. Don't be an authoritarian, it's not a good look.

If Congress granted the federal government via OSHA the ability to impose a vaccine mandate there would be no reason to cite Jacobson. Additionally, Jacobson was a question about the state's authority, not the federal government. It also predates the formation of OSHA by decades. Citing Jacobson as the grounding for an OSHA enforced vaccine mandate is stupid. Your source never once made the argument that there is precedent for the federal government to enforce a vaccine mandate. Care to guess why? That's right, it doesn't exist. If the Supreme Court upholds this OSHA vaccine mandate it will be the beginning of the precedent for such authority, it will not exist over a century prior from Jacobson as this author is trying to trick idiots into believing.

 

[NWRatCon]

I always feel like when I start a thread on any particular topic, we all have to contend with dispatches from "Short Attention Span Theater".

 

[GummyVitamins]

I always feel like when I start a thread on any particular topic, we all have to contend with dispatches from "Short Attention Span Theater".

Let me know when you figure out the difference between localities, states and the federal government as it pertains to legal authority. It should be able to be understood within this short attention span problem you seem to have cited for yourself. Fear not, once you defeat this short attention span I'm here to help explain any additional gaps you have problems understanding.

 

[NWRatCon]

“It’s not just about COVID. It’s not even just about public health. It’s about basic ideas of how government is going to be allowed to operate,” says Lindsay Wiley, a health law professor at UCLA School of Law. “What’s at stake in this decision … is the ability of the federal administration, now and in the future, to rise to new challenges or implement new solutions that Congress couldn’t have foreseen at the time when it drafted the authorizing statute for the agency.” The Enormous Stakes of Biden's Vaccine Mandates at the Supreme Court (TIME). "If the Court does rule against one or both of the vaccination requirements, experts say the decisions could amount to a transfer of power from elected officials and their staffs to the courts."