Leftist Ivy League university Princeton says that life begins at fertilization.

[Aunt Antifa]

You're right. The pro-abortion people have already admitted they don't care if it's a baby or not.

I know it’s not a baby. A fetus isn’t a baby.

Science.

 

[eman926]

First, your thread title is a blatant lie. Princeton University doesn’t say anything about when life begins.

And posting decades old propaganda written by a pro-life zealot (Dianne N. Irving), along with a pro-lifer recommended reading list, further proves your ignorance and reputation as a bad faith debater.

Thread FAIL

It’s not a lie. These are actual professors in the quotes.


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[eman926]

I know it’s not a baby. A fetus isn’t a baby.

Science.

In Latin fetus means “little one”. Try again.


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[eman926]

No, killing Jews was not wrong according to the NDSAP's definition and it was they who made Germany's laws. Laws can be good, bad and downright evil. And so, of course, can members of the legal and religious professions.

You are so delusional if you go by a technicality like that instead of what is moral.


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[eman926]

First, your thread title is a blatant lie. Princeton University doesn’t say anything about when life begins.

And posting decades old propaganda written by a pro-life zealot (Dianne N. Irving), along with a pro-lifer recommended reading list, further proves your ignorance and reputation as a bad faith debater.

Thread FAIL

Jane Roe and Mary Doe became pro-life activists. Nice try.


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[Mashmont]

I know it’s not a baby. A fetus isn’t a baby.

Science.

'Baby' isn't a scientific term. Those who lost the debate divert by playing semantic games.

 

[RaleBulgarian]

It’s not a lie. These are actual professors in the quotes.


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1. The “professors” you refer to are not all PU faculty.
2. PU doesn’t have an official position on when life begins, as your thread title falsely asserts.

 

[RaleBulgarian]

Jane Roe and Mary Doe became pro-life activists. Nice try.


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Utterly irrelevant to this thread.

 

[OceanBlues1]

So what? The woman has the right to have it removed from her body if she so chooses.

Precisely. And only the woman has the right to make that choice, as it should be.

 

[OceanBlues1]

That’s bigotry against the unborn.

Hardly. But you have the right to believe whatever you want. Doesn't make it "fact," though.

 

[OceanBlues1]

The documents are from Ivy League professors.

Again, very slowly. So. What. Which, to me, means they're no more "special" than any other documents from some pro-life source. Try to accept the fact that not everyone is impressed by the whole "Ivy League" label.

 

[southwest88]

Re: Does it?

Look at my other thread. I was once a pro-life atheist. Stop assuming.

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Yah, interesting combination. & yet here you are, quoting Princeton University's Pro-life group, the exact same documents (as I recall) that we've seen before in this context. The Pro-life movement in the US is basically a Southern US Evangelical effort in the political arena, a line in the US culture wars. Interestingly, the Pro-life numbers (I believe) are mostly Roman Catholic. & certainly their theological heft comes from various papal bulls & encyclicals - in Latin, yet. A kind of appeal to authority, even though the Evangelicals as a group detest Roman Catholicism.

& Princeton started as a training ground for Protestant ministers, as I recall. Over the years & decades, it's evolved into a more secular institution; but still, the roots are there.

So, as a once Pro-life atheist, Did you have your own line of argument for opposing abortion? Or did you just borrow the logic from Pro-life organizations? Which is strange, because their arguments tend to be - given their R. Catholic membership - overwhelmingly religious, & R. Catholic brand of religious, @ that.

 

[eman926]

Re: Does it?

Yah, interesting combination. & yet here you are, quoting Princeton University's Pro-life group, the exact same documents (as I recall) that we've seen before in this context. The Pro-life movement in the US is basically a Southern US Evangelical effort in the political arena, a line in the US culture wars. Interestingly, the Pro-life numbers (I believe) are mostly Roman Catholic. & certainly their theological heft comes from various papal bulls & encyclicals - in Latin, yet. A kind of appeal to authority, even though the Evangelicals as a group detest Roman Catholicism.

& Princeton started as a training ground for Protestant ministers, as I recall. Over the years & decades, it's evolved into a more secular institution; but still, the roots are there.

So, as a once Pro-life atheist, Did you have your own line of argument for opposing abortion? Or did you just borrow the logic from Pro-life organizations? Which is strange, because their arguments tend to be - given their R. Catholic membership - overwhelmingly religious, & R. Catholic brand of religious, @ that.

Even though they are pro-life sources, they quoted secular reading materials and professors.


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[eman926]

Re: Does it?

Yah, interesting combination. & yet here you are, quoting Princeton University's Pro-life group, the exact same documents (as I recall) that we've seen before in this context. The Pro-life movement in the US is basically a Southern US Evangelical effort in the political arena, a line in the US culture wars. Interestingly, the Pro-life numbers (I believe) are mostly Roman Catholic. & certainly their theological heft comes from various papal bulls & encyclicals - in Latin, yet. A kind of appeal to authority, even though the Evangelicals as a group detest Roman Catholicism.

& Princeton started as a training ground for Protestant ministers, as I recall. Over the years & decades, it's evolved into a more secular institution; but still, the roots are there.

So, as a once Pro-life atheist, Did you have your own line of argument for opposing abortion? Or did you just borrow the logic from Pro-life organizations? Which is strange, because their arguments tend to be - given their R. Catholic membership - overwhelmingly religious, & R. Catholic brand of religious, @ that.

I always viewed as life beginning at fertilization. When I first heard about abortion as a kid, I was APPALLED that anyone would do such a thing.


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[southwest88]

NAZIs

No, killing Jews was not wrong according to the NDSAP's definition and it was they who made Germany's laws. Laws can be good, bad and downright evil. And so, of course, can members of the legal and religious professions.

Maybe you meant NSDAP? Yes, effectively (after the Reichstag fire) Hitler & his advisers made the laws that the Reichstag rubber stamped. & Hitler required the military, government, universities, youth groups & Brown Shirts & anybody else he could convince to swear personal fealty to him - not to the German government nor to their underlying constitution. The German government & people soon enough had reason to regret their poor decision-making, but it was too late by then.

Hitler & his crew basically shot their way into power, much as the radical young military officers did in Imperial Japan. Neither case turned out well; with no institutional limits on political & military overreach, both polities undertook to conquer the World. The World disagreed.

 

[eman926]

Hardly. But you have the right to believe whatever you want. Doesn't make it "fact," though.

I say the same for you. You are only interested in CONVENIENCE providing that you are the FEELINGS PARTY. Sorry but feelings aren’t facts, and they sure as hell aren’t values.


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[vegas giants]

When Do Human Beings Begin?

Life Begins at Fertilization with the Embryo's Conception

And ends in abortion. Fine with me and every civilized country on earth

 

[eman926]

1. The “professors” you refer to are not all PU faculty.
2. PU doesn’t have an official position on when life begins, as your thread title falsely asserts.

They have sources from even more prestigious schools like Oxford though.


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[eman926]

And ends in abortion. Fine with me and every civilized country on earth

It’s not civilized to murder. And there are still some countries that have it illegal.


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[vegas giants]

It’s not civilized to murder. And there are still some countries that have it illegal.


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Name these bastions of freedom

 

[southwest88]

Call

In Latin fetus means “little one”. Try again.


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Yah. Or see Fetus - Wikipedia

"Etymology
"The word fetus (plural fetuses or feti) is related to the Latin fētus ("offspring", "bringing forth", "hatching of young")[3][4][5] and the Greek "φυτώ" to plant."

(My emphasis - more @ the URL)

Notice the emphasis on the verb, rather than on a noun.

The references:

3. O.E.D.2nd Ed.2005

4. Harper, Douglas. (2001). Online Etymology Dictionary Archived 2013-04-20 at the Wayback Machine. Retrieved 2007-01-20.

5. "Charlton T. Lewis, An Elementary Latin Dictionary, fētus". Archived from the original on 2017-01-04. Retrieved 2015-09-24.


More importantly, in Roe v. Wade, fetus means that pregnancy has not come to term. Legal personhood depends upon birth - that is when the US recognizes the baby as a legal person, who has rights.

 

[RaleBulgarian]

They have sources from even more prestigious schools like Oxford though.

They don’t speak for their schools either.

 

[southwest88]

What are the ethics there?

Jane Roe and Mary Doe became pro-life activists. Nice try.

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Jane Roe - apparently for a price. See "Roe v. Wade" plaintiff said she was paid to support anti-abortion rights movement - CBS News

"Norma McCorvey — otherwise known as "Jane Roe" of Roe v. Wade, the landmark Supreme Court case that legalized abortion in the United States — said before her death that she was paid by anti-abortion rights groups to later oppose abortion. McCorvey made the stunning revelation in the forthcoming documentary "AKA Jane Roe," set to premiere Friday on FX."

(My emphasis - more @ the URL)

So - is this article, & the documentary & so on - not true?

 

[Noodlegawd]

When Do Human Beings Begin?

Life Begins at Fertilization with the Embryo's Conception

Princeton didn't say that. Some random Catholic professor wrote an article 20 years ago that someone from the Princeton pro-life group posted on their webpage at princeton.edu.

But even that is beside the point. Your first link starts out by saying: "The question as to when the physical material dimension of a human being begins is strictly a scientific question, and fundamentally should be answered by human embryologists�not by philosophers, bioethicists, theologians, politicians, x-ray technicians, movie stars, or obstetricians and gynecologists. The question as to when a human person begins is a philosophical question."

So, in other words, embryology tells us nothing about whether abortion is okay.

 

[southwest88]

Re: Does it?

I always viewed as life beginning at fertilization. When I first heard about abortion as a kid, I was APPALLED that anyone would do such a thing.

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first heard about abortion as a kid, I was APPALLED - You might look into the history of birth control & induced miscarriage, then. It has a very long history, & the midwives, herbalists & traditional medicine practitioners certainly knew which plants could be used to induce labor, or to induce miscarriage.