Leftist Ivy League university Princeton says that life begins at fertilization.

[Lursa]

I feel the act of abortion and the throw away qualities this attaches to life impacts our society negatively on at least one level in a general way.

Our society, though, has backed away from caring for the unwanted child and left that responsibility with the mother. This, then, is a balance of rights and responsibilities.

And conservatives/republicans are the group that mostly do the backing away from caring for the unwanted child and mother. They are the ones that want to cut the programs that help support the mother/family.

That's undeniable. So the hypocrisy is very clear.

Thank you, again, for revealing some honesty and truth in this debate.

 

[Lursa]

Obviously a wrong statement.

Women Are Dying From “Safe And Legal” Abortions

The American public has a right to know how deadly this procedure is.

dailycaller.com

It is a risk, that's true. That's why it's a lie when pro-lifers claim women are escaping consequences when they abort.

They dont escape consequences, they just dont have to accept the one that pro-lifers want to force on them. Abortions can kill women, tho much less than pregnancy/childbirth, are painful, and can cost $$ and lost work time. Such financial losses can have significant impacts on a family already living on the margin of poverty.

What's telling is that pro-lifers are so willing to desire to use force of law to make women undergo the much more dangerous pregnancy/childbirth for something the woman cannot afford or care for adequately. That's sickening and certainly not very "Christian." Not that all pro-lifers are Christian.

For reference:
Abortion is 14 times safer than pregnancy

Abortion safer than giving birth: study

Getting a legal abortion is much safer than giving birth, suggests a new U.S. study published Monday.

www.reuters.com

NEW YORK (Reuters Health) - Getting a legal abortion is much safer than giving birth, suggests a new U.S. study published Monday.

Researchers found that women were about 14 times more likely to die during or after giving birth to a live baby than to die from complications of an abortion.

 

[iguanaman]

I feel the act of abortion and the throw away qualities this attaches to life impacts our society negatively on at least one level in a general way.

Our society, though, has backed away from caring for the unwanted child and left that responsibility with the mother. This, then, is a balance of rights and responsibilities.

The legalization of abortion helps society to wash its collective hands of the issue and is convenient, expedient and unseen by the general population absent the Gosnell type attrocities.

Was there anything in anything that I have posted that indicates in any way that I believe one adult woman ending the life of her unborn specifically impacts another adult woman's choice(s)?

There may be an argument attaching this to the general dehumanizing of people in our society. I know that mobs beating store keepers to death is now approved and encouraged in our media.

When did this slide to depravity start?

I guess "this slide to depravity" would have to have started with the first human woman because 2/3rds of fertilized eggs are aborted naturally. So let the funerals begin. Nature did not intend for every zygote to become a human and a women's decision that a child is not right for her at this time is just as valid as the natural ones.

 

[code1211]

Sex is determined at fertilization, though the sex organs don't begin to differentiate into male/female until week 9 of gestation.

And yes, this is why we all have nipples. Also, the clitoris is what would be the head of the penis if the zef were male.

So, then, females who are aborted are aborted?

That's all I was saying. That's all you agreed with.

 

[code1211]

"Slide to depravity?" Hardly. There's nothing "depraved" about a woman's deciding for herself whether or not to continue a pregnancy either. Whether or not you approve of her choice, whatever that may be, is irrelevant.

Did I assign anything to the individual woman or to her choice?

How a society treats the weakest among them has become a measure of the morality of that society. No Utopia includes systems of genocide or ethnic cleansing.

Protecting the weak from the strong is a marker of an enlightened civilization.

The unborn are undoubtedly among the weakest in our number.

By this our society is indicted.

The women choosing abortion on demand are not any way more culpable of anything than is any other person in our society which is both approving and endorsing that choice.

No person is an island.

 

[vegas giants]

Did I assign anything to the individual woman or to her choice?

How a society treats the weakest among them has become a measure of the morality of that society. No Utopia includes systems of genocide or ethnic cleansing.

Protecting the weak from the strong is a marker of an enlightened civilization.

The unborn are undoubtedly among the weakest in our number.

By this our society is indicted.

The women choosing abortion on demand are not any way more culpable of anything than is any other person in our society which is both approving and endorsing that choice.

No person is an island.

So you support massive social programs for poor kids.


Good to know

 

[code1211]

Society has never taken care of unwanted children. Have you not read Dickens, seen Hogarth's etchings, looked at Lewis Hines photos https://allthatsinteresting.com/lewis-hine-child-labor-photographs#15

Okay...

Does that impact my point in any way?

 

[code1211]

I guess "this slide to depravity" would have to have started with the first human woman because 2/3rds of fertilized eggs are aborted naturally. So let the funerals begin. Nature did not intend for every zygote to become a human and a women's decision that a child is not right for her at this time is just as valid as the natural ones.

Are you now saying that Women CHOOSE to have miscarriages?

 

[iguanaman]

Are you now saying that Women CHOOSE to have miscarriages?

Do you know the definition of miscarriages? Look it up.

 

[Scrabaholic]

I like this! If you are going with early abortion only aborts females and entirely discounts what it will develop into in the future, then surely you are pro-choice and have no claims to the view that aborting the unborn kills 'babies,' or future people. There is no need to account for what they will develop into.

Excellent. I accept your statement on early abortions and females!

Amen.

 

[code1211]

So you support massive social programs for poor kids.


Good to know

You have a nearly unblemished record of never understanding anything.

 

[vegas giants]

You have a nearly unblemished record of never understanding anything.

Right back at you buddy

 

[code1211]

Do you know the definition of miscarriages? Look it up.

I didn't ask for a homework assignment. I asked you to better define your belief.

 

[weaver2]

Okay...Does that impact my point in any way

I was addressing your sentence "Our society, though, has backed away from caring for the unwanted child and left that responsibility with the mother." We are not backing away from unwanted children. We have made abortion legal, safe, professional, hygienic, private and accessible(in most states).

The slippery slope is the return to a time when women didn't have a choice about the number of children and most families were so impoverished by too many children that child labor was sometimes the only income the family had. Legal abortion in the 1st trimester is not a slippery slope. It is part of the culture of cherishing wanted children and providing stable, safe loving homes for them to grow up in.

 

[iguanaman]

I didn't ask for a homework assignment. I asked you to better define your belief.

If you knew the definition you would not be asking. Elective abortions are only a tiny % of the zygotes that do not result in a child. Heaven must be full of billions of souls that were never born unless you believe in the Bible that says souls don't enter until the first breath.

Finally! A letter about abortion that actually makes sense. L.G. Connor of Ellicott City is absolutely right — before anyone can take a position on abortion they must first answer the question of when life begins (“When does life begin?” Aug. 6). And that's an easy one. The Bible tells us in no uncertain terms when life begins. In Genesis, chapter one, God answers that question himself. He forms a figure from the Earth, but it does not become Adam ("man" in Hebrew) until God "breathes into him the breath of life, and he became man.”
Clearly, life begins when you draw your first breath. That is when God places your soul in your body. Your soul enters your body with your first breath and it leaves with your last. The body is just a vessel — your being, your humanity, is your immortal soul. That's what the Bible says, and for the life of me I cannot understand why so many people, especially supposedly religious people, get this wrong. There is no question, no moral ambiguity. Abortion destroys an empty vessel, it does not kill a human being.

https://www.baltimoresun.com/opinio...ed-rr-abortion-law-letter-20180807-story.html

 

[Lursa]

If you knew the definition you would not be asking. Elective abortions are only a tiny % of the zygotes that do not result in a child. Heaven must be full of billions of souls that were never born unless you believe in the Bible that says souls don't enter until the first breath.



https://www.baltimoresun.com/opinio...ed-rr-abortion-law-letter-20180807-story.html

I dont think it matters to him now that he has admitted it doesnt matter that they eventually develop into people. Which is the foundational claim of pro-lifers.

 

[code1211]

I was addressing your sentence "Our society, though, has backed away from caring for the unwanted child and left that responsibility with the mother." We are not backing away from unwanted children. We have made abortion legal, safe, professional, hygienic, private and accessible(in most states).

The slippery slope is the return to a time when women didn't have a choice about the number of children and most families were so impoverished by too many children that child labor was sometimes the only income the family had. Legal abortion in the 1st trimester is not a slippery slope. It is part of the culture of cherishing wanted children and providing stable, safe loving homes for them to grow up in.

The sentence you plucked out of the post says one thing and you responded to some other thing.

Is there a reason for even using my post as a springboard to your post?

 

[code1211]

If you knew the definition you would not be asking. Elective abortions are only a tiny % of the zygotes that do not result in a child. Heaven must be full of billions of souls that were never born unless you believe in the Bible that says souls don't enter until the first breath.



https://www.baltimoresun.com/opinio...ed-rr-abortion-law-letter-20180807-story.html

That citation about the first breath was one of the most stupid things I have ever heard come out of the mouth of a politician.

That is really saying something regarding the magnitude of how stupid it was. It has to do with investing life into a fully formed, adult male that was recently fashioned from clay. Not exactly the gestation process.

My opinion on making a choice is that the woman actually makes a choice. You are conflating that with the woman NOT making a choice.

The biological outcome of two separate and entirely unassociated processes have no place in this discussion.

Do you want to include the deaths of seniors who die in traffic accidents that they caused as well?

 

[iguanaman]

That citation about the first breath was one of the most stupid things I have ever heard come out of the mouth of a politician.

That is really saying something regarding the magnitude of how stupid it was. It has to do with investing life into a fully formed, adult male that was recently fashioned from clay. Not exactly the gestation process.

My opinion on making a choice is that the woman actually makes a choice. You are conflating that with the woman NOT making a choice.

The biological outcome of two separate and entirely unassociated processes have no place in this discussion.

Do you want to include the deaths of seniors who die in traffic accidents that they caused as well?

The first breath citation was from the Bible. The idea that a woman being able to choose when she has a child is somehow wrong is typical of men who's personality makes it impossible for them to find a woman who will willingly have a child with them. I feel sorry for them but it is Darwin in action.

 

[code1211]

The first breath citation was from the Bible. The idea that a woman being able to choose when she has a child is somehow wrong is typical of men who's personality makes it impossible for them to find a woman who will willingly have a child with them. I feel sorry for them but it is Darwin in action.

Have you EVER read that "first breath" citation from the Bible? It has absolutely NOTHING to do with gestation in any way.

 

[weaver2]

Have you EVER read that "first breath" citation from the Bible? It has absolutely NOTHING to do with gestation in any way.

It seem pretty clear that breathing is what establishes life.
Genesis 2:7
Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
Acts 17:25
nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things;
Job 27:3
For as long as life is in me,
And the breath of God is in my nostrils,
Job 33:4
“The Spirit of God has made me,
And the breath of the Almighty gives me life.
Isaiah 42:5
Thus says God the Lord,
Who created the heavens and stretched them out,
Who spread out the earth and its offspring,
Who gives breath to the people on it
And spirit to those who walk in it,
Revelation 11:11
But after the three and a half days, the breath of life from God came into them, and they stood on their feet; and great fear fell upon those who were watching them.
Job 34:14-15
If He should gather to Himself His spirit and His breath,
All flesh would perish together,
And man would return to dust.

 

[dave8383]

When Do Human Beings Begin?

Life Begins at Fertilization with the Embryo's Conception

As someone else asked, so what? Is that supposed to stop women from having abortions? They've been having them for 1000s of years and aren't about to stop now. Give it up.

 

[Lursa]

So, then, females who are aborted are aborted?

That's all I was saying. That's all you agreed with.

Of course, and by extension...and logic...you agree with this too.

I like this! If you are going with early abortion only aborts females and entirely discounts what it will develop into in the future, then surely you are pro-choice and have no claims to the view that aborting the unborn kills 'babies,' or future people. There is no need to account for what they will develop into.

Excellent. I accept your statement on early abortions and females!
​

It would be nice if you confirmed or disputed it. It's an interesting extension of your claim.

 

[Lursa]

Have you EVER read that "first breath" citation from the Bible? It has absolutely NOTHING to do with gestation in any way.

It doesnt need to. The abortion issue is 'generally' about ending a life and for the religious, at least Jews and Christians, the discussion of when that life 'begins' and ensoulment occurs is very relevant.

 

[code1211]

It seem pretty clear that breathing is what establishes life.
Genesis 2:7
Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
Acts 17:25
nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things;
Job 27:3
For as long as life is in me,
And the breath of God is in my nostrils,
Job 33:4
“The Spirit of God has made me,
And the breath of the Almighty gives me life.
Isaiah 42:5
Thus says God the Lord,
Who created the heavens and stretched them out,
Who spread out the earth and its offspring,
Who gives breath to the people on it
And spirit to those who walk in it,
Revelation 11:11
But after the three and a half days, the breath of life from God came into them, and they stood on their feet; and great fear fell upon those who were watching them.
Job 34:14-15
If He should gather to Himself His spirit and His breath,
All flesh would perish together,
And man would return to dust.

Obviously, breath is a very important feature to maintaining life.

However, life in the understanding of the Bible exists BEFORE Air enters the lungs.

5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”

Jeremiah 1:5