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Leaving NATO?

Against leaving NATO - or for leaving NATO

  • my country is a member of NATO and I want to stay it that way

    Votes: 73 89.0%
  • my country is a member of NATO and I am in favour of leaving NATO

    Votes: 8 9.8%
  • my country is not a member of NATO - but for me NATO is a good thing

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • my country is not a member of NATO - and for me NATO is NOT a good thing

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I am un-decided

    Votes: 1 1.2%

  • Total voters
    82
Other.

NATO is a good thing...mainly for the Europeans...that has gotten so bastardized by Globalists that it is virtually useless.

I think NATO should be dissolved.
Just pull out. The fact that you don't like it doesn't mean it needs to be dissolved. Just pull out.
You're all about isolation anyway.
 
Your country is the only country that has ever invoked article 5 of the NATO pact that required all other NATO countries to come to their military defense....and we did with great loss of our blood and treasure. The US has never come to the military defense of another NATO country under the articles of NATO....So screw off!
How many of your nukes are pointed at Russia? China? Those are my countrys nukes that have kept the ruskie and other commies in check for the last eighty years.
Oh, Europe would be all speaking German if it wasn’t for my country 80 years ago. A bit before nato but when Europe cry’s for our help we sent ours to die over there and we did it more than once. So, get down on it!!!
 
The point of Article 5 is that it stops wars without *needing* to be invoked. The reason the US has never come to the military defense of another NATO country is because it hasn't been necessary, and the reason it hasn't been necessary is because everyone understands the US will come to the military defense of other NATO countries.
That is not the point. The US DID invoke article five.....Canadian blood, along with other NATO members, blood was spilled in defense of the US. There was never a question, we never blinked. Not one single drop of American blood has been spilled in defense of another NATO nation and I pray it stays that way! However, the US needs to stop whining about what the "give". They don't give a damn thing that isn't in their best interest.....and that's OK.
 
How many of your nukes are pointed at Russia? China? Those are my countrys nukes that have kept the ruskie and other commies in check for the last eighty years.
Oh, Europe would be all speaking German if it wasn’t for my country 80 years ago. A bit before nato but when Europe cry’s for our help we sent ours to die over there and we did it more than once. So, get down on it!!!
That has zero to do with NATO!
 
My country has always done the heavy-lifting with regards to contributions to NATO.

We give over TWICE as much in contributions as our European members.

US contributes over 3.7% of our GDP on defense, while the average for NATO's European members was only 1.77%!

Which is ironic, since NATO was established to protect European countries from invasion by Russia. It stands to reason that Europeans should be the major contributors.

We spend the most money and get the least benefits. For that reason, U.S. should leave NATO.
Bullshit.
The real reason you should leave NATO is to spare us all that whining.
If you didn't support a bloated, ravenous military-industrial complex and support umpteen military installations all over the world (29,000 troops in Okinawa alone) and lose billions to waste and fraud your defense spending level would be the same as the rest of NATO.
Gawd, you want other countries to up their spending level because you pour money into a bottomless pit in the Middle East? How many billions a year go to Israel and then you whine about the size of your defense budget compared to other countries.
Go ahead, tell me how much you actually give to NATO.
 
we sent ours to die over there
This is the thinking of every populist in Europe. "Ours" like a cult, is like you own The United States America.

Same with all the Europeans that have your frame of thinking. "Why send the boys there for NATO? We will live here by ourselves". Tribalistic view of the world.

You should check the stats again on defense. The Alliance is strong against any outside or internal agitators. Stoltenberg dealt with Trump, he will deal with this war (diplomacy and pressure via weapons assisstance).

Difference between professionals and loud mouths.
 
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How many of your nukes are pointed at Russia? China? Those are my countrys nukes that have kept the ruskie and other commies in check for the last eighty years.
Oh, Europe would be all speaking German if it wasn’t for my country 80 years ago. A bit before nato but when Europe cry’s for our help we sent ours to die over there and we did it more than once. So, get down on it!!!
Europe would be speaking Russian. The USSR won WW2 in Europe.
America didn't respond to Germany until Germany declared war on you. Even Germany sinking an American destroyer didn't get America into the war.
 
Europe would be all speaking German .....
No, it won't. :)
But it would not be a bad thing if German was spoken a bit more, because it is a beautiful language, once you know it. :)
Only those who do not understand it fall for that cliché of German as a harsh language - and those who have seen too many war films. :)
 
That is not the point. The US DID invoke article five.....Canadian blood, along with other NATO members, blood was spilled in defense of the US.
Thanks.
There was never a question, we never blinked.
Good.
Not one single drop of American blood has been spilled in defense of another NATO nation and I pray it stays that way!
The US contributes more to NATO than any other country, and saying "not one single drop of American blood has been spilled in defense of another NATO nation" is extremely disingenuous. NATO is, to a first order approximation, a US military protection alliance. That's not to say that the other countries don't contribute too, but the reason Article 5 isn't invoked is because it is simply not necessary due to American military strength. No one is going to attack Estonia if it means a shooting war with the US; the reverse is not true.
They don't give a damn thing that isn't in their best interest.....and that's OK.
I think preventing world wars and promoting democracy in Europe is in all of our best interests given the history of the region, but ymmv.
 
You conflate spending on “defense” with spending on EUROPEAN defense. The United States has chosen to move its military forces to other parts of the world beyond just Europe, like East Asia. If you count the actual portion of the defense budget dedicated to NATO, I suspect that it is on par with that of the European countries. We need to stop whining about this.


I agree. Oftentimes when defense budget of US is cited the portion dedicated to Europe is never factored in. Good job. You do show occassional flashes of brilliance. :)
 
Leaving NATO has been a popular idea for some at times.
I wonder how the feeling is now theses days.
Fact: if trump walks back into the White House in 2024 NATO is toast.
 
The US contributes more to NATO than any other country, and saying "not one single drop of American blood has been spilled in defense of another NATO nation" is extremely disingenuous. NATO is, to a first order approximation, a US military protection alliance. That's not to say that the other countries don't contribute too, but the reason Article 5 isn't invoked is because it is simply not necessary due to American military strength.


Article 5 invocation is a Nato failure. Success for Nato is each additional day Article 5 is not invoked.
 
Article 5 invocation is a Nato failure. Success for Nato is each additional day Article 5 is not invoked.
Agreed. "Speak softly and carry a big stick," as Teddy Roosevelt said.
 
No, it won't. :)
But it would not be a bad thing if German was spoken a bit more, because it is a beautiful language, once you know it. :)
Only those who do not understand it fall for that cliché of German as a harsh language - and those who have seen too many war films. :)


Any language will suffer if Hollywood makes it the language of the bad guy du jour. When Hollywood carefully selects soldiers to play Germans in movies, making them sound tough and harsh as possible; of course a damage is done to the perception of German
 
shouldn't be necessary but Russia is ruled by a complete asshole. They have such an enormous country, why the hell do they want to expand?

Anyway, now more than ever its important
 
The US contributes more to NATO than any other country, and saying "not one single drop of American blood has been spilled in defense of another NATO nation" is extremely disingenuous. NATO is, to a first order approximation, a US military protection alliance. That's not to say that the other countries don't contribute too, but the reason Article 5 isn't invoked is because it is simply not necessary due to American military strength. No one is going to attack Estonia if it means a shooting war with the US; the reverse is not true.
In no way am I minimizing the importance of the US in NATO. You are extremely important. However, for the most part it is a self serving alliance. The US doesn't "give" anything to NATO. Your defense budget would be exactly the same with or without NATO. You seem to want to ignore the fact that article 5 was indeed invoked BUT by the US. Our Canadian soldiers gave their lives as a result of our NATO commitment to the US....so pardon me if if I am offended by the " high horse" attitude of Americans towards NATO.
 
Article 5 invocation is a Nato failure. Success for Nato is each additional day Article 5 is not invoked.
The US is the only country to have invoked it! Are you aware of that? The US invoked it for Ahghanistan. We held to our part of the bargain. Canadian men an women died, lost limbs, suffered........but we came to the aid of the US as is the deal.
 
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Any language will suffer if Hollywood makes it the language of the bad guy du jour. When Hollywood carefully selects soldiers to play Germans in movies, making them sound tough and harsh as possible; of course a damage is done to the perception of German
So it is! And those Germans in films can do no nothing than always run arround stupidly and crying: "Achtung, Achtung!" and shooting with big clumsy machine guns - but not hitting anybody - while the elegant British hero is hiding behind a tree and shoots half the German army with his elegant lady pistol - if British war films are to be believed .... :)
 
In no way am I minimizing the importance of the US in NATO. You are extremely important. However, for the most part it is a self serving alliance. The US doesn't "give" anything to NATO.
Agreed, it is in the US's interest to protect Europe.
Your defense budget would be exactly the same with or without NATO.
Yes, it would be pretty close.
You seem to want to ignore the fact that article 5 was indeed invoked BUT by the US.
I ignore it because it was an insignificant war in an insignificant country in response to a terrorist attack. Maybe invoking Article 5 had some benefit in raising morale to help our NATO partners feel like they were contributing to the alliance too, or doing a test-run in response to a real attack on a NATO member, so I'm not against invoking it. The fact that people from other NATO states still bring it up 20 years later, despite it being a basically irrelevant event in world history, is probably a good thing for the strength of the NATO alliance.

But let's be honest: The US would have done equally well smashing the Taliban in 2001 (and equally badly at avoiding an insurgency in the next 20 years) without NATO. The US invoked Article 5 (and other NATO countries sent troops into Afghanistan) for diplomatic and/or political reasons, not military reasons.
Our Canadian soldiers gave their lives as a result of our NATO commitment to the US....so pardon me if if I am offended by the " high horse" attitude of Americans towards NATO.
I don't think anyone in any country benefits from deluding themselves about what the purpose of NATO is and where the power in the NATO alliance lies. I'm not trying to be a dick here, but it would be better for global security if everyone understood that and made their security decisions accordingly.
 
. . . . Go ahead, tell me how much you actually give to NATO.
The actual dollar amount is unknown. The US government takes a portion of our earnings (in the form of Income Taxes), and then uses that money to pay the interest on money which the government borrows to redistribute to the Military Industrial Complex. It's a very clever scheme.

But each tax-paying American contributes (in some capacity) to NATO, when there's really no justification for it.

For this reason, the U.S. should bow out of NATO. We should be spending that money on infrastructure.
 
Just pull out. The fact that you don't like it doesn't mean it needs to be dissolved. Just pull out.
You're all about isolation anyway.
If the US pulls out, it'll dissolve on its own. Why waste time. just end it.
 
I ignore it because it was an insignificant war in an insignificant country in response to a terrorist attack. Maybe invoking Article 5 had some benefit in raising morale to help our NATO partners feel like they were contributing to the alliance too, or doing a test-run in response to a real attack on a NATO member, so I'm not against invoking it. The fact that people from other NATO states still bring it up 20 years later, despite it being a basically irrelevant event in world history, is probably a good thing for the strength of the NATO alliance.

But let's be honest: The US would have done equally well smashing the Taliban in 2001 (and equally badly at avoiding an insurgency in the next 20 years) without NATO. The US invoked Article 5 (and other NATO countries sent troops into Afghanistan) for diplomatic and/or political reasons, not military reasons.
I have nothing more to say it someone who is so dismissive of the death, devastating wounding and trauma to those Canadians, and other NATO members, who answered your call to an "insignificant" war that was nothing more than a "morale booster". You are the epitome of the Ugly American.
 
so pardon me if if I am offended by the " high horse" attitude of Americans towards NATO.
For the record, I don't have a high horse attitude toward NATO. I'd be OK with most of the other NATO countries not having a military at all and just letting the US protect them, if that's what they want to do. All I'm saying is that it's obviously wrong that America has never spilled blood defending NATO members. We just did our blood-spilling *before* we formed NATO, which makes it unnecessary now. It's President Teddy Roosevelt's foreign policy: "Speak softly and carry a big stick."
 
I have nothing more to say it someone who is so dismissive of the death, devastating wounding and trauma to those Canadians, and other NATO members, who answered your call to an "insignificant" war that was nothing more than a "morale booster". You are the epitome of the Ugly American.
OK then. Have a nice day.
 
I have nothing more to say it someone who is so dismissive of the death, devastating wounding and trauma to those Canadians, and other NATO members, who answered your call to an "insignificant" war that was nothing more than a "morale booster". You are the epitome of the Ugly American.
If you feel the war in Afghanistan achieved something positive, either for the military security of your NATO ally or for the people of Afghanistan, I won't try to dissuade you. Like I said, I think it's probably a good thing that people from other NATO countries still proudly bring it up 20 years later to show that they contributed too. So, thanks Canada.

(As for the war...well, I think the outcome speaks for itself.)
 
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