Late term abortion, how can it be moral?

[Integrityrespec]

With the new laws in NY, and legislative attempts in Virginia and Rhode Island what is your view on late term abortion legislation.

 

[Bucky]

With the new laws in NY, and legislative attempts in Virginia and Rhode Island what is your view on late term abortion legislation.

There is a reason why it is banned in the majority of countries in the world.

 

[Skeptic Bob]

I am not familiar with the laws being proposed. But generally speaking, my understanding is late term abortions happen when there is a danger to the life of the mother or the fetus has severe defects. In cases like that I am fine leaving it up to the medical community to regulate themselves and establish their own standards. Note, I am not saying an individual doctor should be able to make up his/her own rules, but the medical boards should set the rules.

I do think it might sometimes be used as euthanasia, in cases where a life expectancy of a few years after birth might be expected but that it will be accompanied by a short life of severe pain. Personally, I think euthanasia in those cases can be a humane choice. I have said here before, we are more humane to our pets suffering terminal pain than we are to people.

 

[Integrityrespec]

I'm very pro-life and have a problem understanding how anyone can see abortion as OK. With the new legislation passed in NY and attempts to pass similar legislation in other states I worry about the moral foundation of our country. How can you be OK with killing an unborn baby? Whether at conception or a few weeks or at full term, I just can't understand that mentality. Most abortions are not done for the health of the mother nor for medical reasons associated with a fetus. Most are just on demand, I don't want this baby. I'm amazed at how this is OK. People worry more about killing baby seals and climate change than human life. The new laws could allow the birth of a baby and then allowing the child to die under doctor supervision.

 

[rjay]

With the new laws in NY, and legislative attempts in Virginia and Rhode Island what is your view on late term abortion legislation.

There is not enough information given to make a moral determination. I suspect that if you could be looked at each actual case individually, with all of the information pertaining to that case, then you could make a moral judgement based on that case.

Moral pronouncements of the general kind are rarely useful or accurate.

One need look no further than the pronouncement 'Thou shall not kill' and compare that with all of the laws on the books dealing with specific circumstances like self-defense, man-slaughter...

 

[Waddy]

According to this law, abortion is legal right up to the time of birth. How does an abortion, legal even when the woman is in labor, actually work?

Do they pull the baby out whole, and then just set it in a sink and wait until it dies of dehydration? Or reach in with bone crushers to around the head to kill it before pulling it out?

I've read that babies at 24 weeks, (the usual limit on abortions), have a 50/50 chance of surviving.

 

[Trippy Trekker]

I'm very pro-life and have a problem understanding how anyone can see abortion as OK. With the new legislation passed in NY and attempts to pass similar legislation in other states I worry about the moral foundation of our country. How can you be OK with killing an unborn baby? Whether at conception or a few weeks or at full term, I just can't understand that mentality. Most abortions are not done for the health of the mother nor for medical reasons associated with a fetus. Most are just on demand, I don't want this baby. I'm amazed at how this is OK. People worry more about killing baby seals and climate change than human life. The new laws could allow the birth of a baby and then allowing the child to die under doctor supervision.

Please open the link and read an article provided by sangha (post #35) in another abortion thread.

https://www.debatepolitics.com/abor...-abortion-legislation-ny.html?highlight=Darla

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/apr/18/late-term-abortion-experience-donald-trump

Read the story about Darla

After you read those heartbreaking stories, please tell us what you think the mothers in each story should have done. Thanks in advance for your anticipated participation!

 

[Integrityrespec]

Terrible stories and hard decisions to make. I give you the unusual circumstances and see why someone might make those decisions. However most abortions are on demand and not for medical reasons. In those cases I think it is just wrong. I think a lot of people would believe the decisions made in the three cases you site would also be wrong but I will not attempt to questions those decisions as they deal with the quality and even the very existence of life after birth. Im sure those couples did what they felt was right. In those cases you make a decision the best you can. In most cases you are not making this type choice.

 

[Trippy Trekker]

Terrible stories and hard decisions to make. I give you the unusual circumstances and see why someone might make those decisions. However most abortions are on demand and not for medical reasons. In those cases I think it is just wrong. I think a lot of people would believe the decisions made in the three cases you site would also be wrong but I will not attempt to questions those decisions as they deal with the quality and even the very existence of life after birth. Im sure those couples did what they felt was right. In those cases you make a decision the best you can. In most cases you are not making this type choice.

Your original post referenced "your view on late term abortion legislation..".

I honestly doubt the NY legislation protects or encourages women to seek late term abortions. The legislation redirects the decision to abort away from the criminal code ... and to the mother in consultation with certified medical professionals. Ten states and Canada have already enacted similar legislation.

You can gain a substantial amount of awareness on the subject by skimming through the thread I linked you to. Peace to you and yours!

 

[Anagram]

Moderator's Warning:

Moved from Polls due to lack of a poll.

 

[Scrabaholic]

With the new laws in NY, and legislative attempts in Virginia and Rhode Island what is your view on late term abortion legislation.

It should not be illegal at any stage - and isn't in my country. It is for *doctors*, not the govt, to practice medicine.

 

[blarg]

With the new laws in NY, and legislative attempts in Virginia and Rhode Island what is your view on late term abortion legislation.

i don't consider a late term fetus to be a person and i dont mind the killing of animals in and of itself

though after birth is when i like to place my arbitrary cut off line for it but if the infant is just going to die any way then putting it down seems like it could be humane

 

[AGENT J]

With the new laws in NY, and legislative attempts in Virginia and Rhode Island what is your view on late term abortion legislation.

Easy, morals are subjective :shrug:

now my morals do not support late-term abortions (after 24 weeks RvW) for "just cause" reasons but i do except the exceptions.
I could even support that moving to 20 weeks BUT i would still allow all the basic exceptions that wouldn't really change anything since little to no abortions happen after 24 weeks "just cause"

 

[marke]

With the new laws in NY, and legislative attempts in Virginia and Rhode Island what is your view on late term abortion legislation.

I would post a picture of a bloody aborted full term baby, but it is against the law in several states to expose abortion for what it really is.

 

[AGENT J]

I would post a picture of a bloody aborted full term baby, but it is against the law in several states to expose abortion for what it really is.

Please list those states and quote and link the laws that fctually say that, thanks!

 

[Lursa]

With the new laws in NY, and legislative attempts in Virginia and Rhode Island what is your view on late term abortion legislation.

Elective near viability abortions dont even take place, much less those of viable fetuses.

There was no new law in NY, only the removal of the decriminalization of an act that doesnt occur.

If you think the law is necessary, please provide data showing how many viable fetuses were electively aborted last yr or fairly recently.

 

[Altailites]

With the new laws in NY, and legislative attempts in Virginia and Rhode Island what is your view on late term abortion legislation.

Are you intimately familiar with the legislation?

 

[minnie616]

Terrible stories and hard decisions to make. I give you the unusual circumstances and see why someone might make those decisions. However most abortions are on demand and not for medical reasons. In those cases I think it is just wrong. I think a lot of people would believe the decisions made in the three cases you site would also be wrong but I will not attempt to questions those decisions as they deal with the quality and even the very existence of life after birth. Im sure those couples did what they felt was right. In those cases you make a decision the best you can. In most cases you are not making this type choice.

Abortions before 24 weeks in most states may be elective.
Abortions after 21 weeks are rare and are for medical reasons. About 1.3 percent of abortions in the UNited States occur past 21 weeks.
Some are because the fetus is not viable. It is incapable of living outside the woman’s womb.
Still others are to prevent irreparable damage to a major bodiliy function of women’s , ( such as stroke, heart attack, paralysis from the neck down, kidney damage or liver damage,etc.) another 80 percent of abortions past 21 weeks are because of major fetal defects.

There are only 3 clinics and 4 clinic doctors who perform abortions in the USA for these extreme contions so it does not matter that the law in NY has no time limits of when an abortion may occur since there are no clinics nor clinic doctors in that state trained to perform abortions past 24 weeks.
And No elective abortions occur past 24 weeks. They just do not happen.

From the following Romper article:

In 2013, there were four doctors in the country who performed abortions after the 20th week of pregnancy, according to Slate. (Current numbers could be even lower.)
...

So Dr. Gunter supplied a few facts of her own. Only 1.3 percent of abortions happen at, or after, 21 weeks, she said, and 80 percent of those are the results of catastrophic defects with the fetus.

Dr. Gunter continued with a powerful explanation of why women generally seek out procedures like a late-term abortion.

Sometimes it can take weeks or even longer to fully understand what is going on with the fetus. Some patients might think they can make it to term and then at 34 weeks cave and ask to be delivered because they just can’t bear one more person asking them about their baby. Do they just smile and walk away or say, 'Well, actually, my baby has no brain and will die at birth?' Some women go to term and others can’t. To judge these women for requesting an early delivery is cruel on so many levels.

https://www.romper.com/p/which-stat...tions-they-are-very-difficult-to-access-21069

 

[Coyuga]

It's never moral. 90-95% of third-trimester babies can be safely delivered via C-Section. Abortion, in general, is murder.

 

[minnie616]

It's never moral. 90-95% of third-trimester babies can be safely delivered via C-Section. Abortion, in general, is murder.

Non viable unborns will die even if the pregnant woman is put through a c - section.

Women who have an abortion to prevent irreparable damage to major bodiliy function ( such as stroke, heart attack, paralysis from the neck down , kidney damage liver damage , etc. ) If the pregnancy continued will likely be injured for the rest of their lives if they even survived the C-section.

Kansas was one of only a small handful of states that allowed legal late term abortions back in 2008.
Dr. Tiller was one of 5 doctors who performed late term abortions at that time.
Out of state OB/GYNs who had patients with the late term extreme complications that I mentioned would often send their patients to Dr. Tiller or one of the other 4 clinic doctors for their late term abortions.

Kansas recorded the numbers of abortions that took place after 22 weeks gestation in 2008.

There were 323 abortions that took place at or after 22 weeks gestation (40 weeks gestation is considered full term)in Kansas in 2008.

192 of those abortions was because the fetus was NOT viable.

It had died in the womb , it would be stillborn, or it was so malformed it would live only a few minutes or hours.
They were not viaible and never had a chance of living.

The other 132 (22 weeks gestation or later ) abortions were because there would be irreparable damage to a major bodily function if the pregnancy continued.

They were extreme cases.

 

[Lursa]

It's never moral. 90-95% of third-trimester babies can be safely delivered via C-Section. Abortion, in general, is murder.

No, it's not murder, as it is legal.

But no matter how many of us are personally would not have an abortion, we still support personal liberty and choice.

Which as a libertarian, of course you would also, correct? I mean, where's the morality in forcing women to remain pregnant against their will? Surely no govt should ever have that power over personal liberty and bodily sovereignty, right?

 

[Coyuga]

Libertarian philosophy is the Non-Aggression Principle. All scientific evidence points to humans being alive from conception onwards. Therefore, purposely destroying the zygote/fetus/embryo is an act of aggression against the child, and thus it is murder. Therefore, since it is the government's duty to protect people, abortion can never be allowed except in the most eggregious of medical circumstances, where it is then, arguably, self defense.

 

[iguanaman]

With the new laws in NY, and legislative attempts in Virginia and Rhode Island what is your view on late term abortion legislation.

Elective late term abortion is already banned. The very rare cases where it is performed is is because of profound defects in the fetus such as Anencephaly or health of the mother. Why would you want a mother to bring a brainless fetus to term?

What is anencephaly?
Anencephaly is a serious birth defect in which a baby is born without parts of the brain and skull. It is a type of neural tube defect (NTD). As the neural tube forms and closes, it helps form the baby’s brain and skull (upper part of the neural tube), spinal cord, and back bones (lower part of the neural tube).

Anencephaly happens if the upper part of the neural tube does not close all the way. This often results in a baby being born without the front part of the brain (forebrain) and the thinking and coordinating part of the brain (cerebrum). The remaining parts of the brain are often not covered by bone or skin.

Occurrence
CDC estimates that each year, about 3 pregnancies in every 10,000 in the United States will have anencephaly.1 This means about 1,206 pregnancies are affected by these conditions each year in the United States.

https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/birthdefects/anencephaly.html

 

[Lursa]

Libertarian philosophy is the Non-Aggression Principle. All scientific evidence points to humans being alive from conception onwards. Therefore, purposely destroying the zygote/fetus/embryo is an act of aggression against the child, and thus it is murder. Therefore, since it is the government's duty to protect people, abortion can never be allowed except in the most eggregious of medical circumstances, where it is then, arguably, self defense.

Nothing aggressive about it at all. 97.5% of the unborn are pea-sized or smaller and flushed painlessly from the womb.

Our govt recognizes justifiable killing: war, self-defense, abortion, for examples.

How would the govt force women to remain pregnant against their will 'non-aggressively?'

Do you believe the bodily sovereignty of the unborn should take place over the bodily sovereignty of the woman? Since neither can be protected equally, do you believe the unborn's takes place over the woman's If so, why?

 

[Coyuga]

Those that are in a coma, on certain drugs, etc don't feel pain, do they not have protections against murder?

It comes down to what you value more: A temporary inconvenience for the mother, or the permanent and unnecessary death of a child. Again, all scientific evidence points to life beginning at conception. Feelings don't matter here. The woman had a choice to use a condom or just not have sex and chose to go the pregnancy route.

Even if the condom broke or the woman was raped, it's still a baby. Period.