Kyrgyzstan's New Government Announces Elections

[Fantasea]

I agree, once you go two-party, it's hard to change the system. Perhaps the only hope is to, as I would like, unite a group and make it powerful enough to challenge the two parties. I have toyed with the idea of an anti-capitalist party, to sufficiently challenge the two capitalist parties we see. It would entail the unification of the anarchists, greens, and Marxists against a common foe: capitalism. It's gotten some positive feedback on my socialist forum, but I expect none here. The idea, though, is simple enough: those three factions have had some successes individually, but have mostly failed. If they were to be united, the effect would be gigantic, especially if it, as I would hope, were to go international. An international anti-capitalist party would obviously produce some major results, with democracy rather than violence. If anyone is at all interested, we may discuss this idea further (as, currently, that's all it is, an idea).

You're about seventy years too late. The IWW (International Workers of the World) was organized around that very principle. However, because it seemed that they were always on strike, many folks thought that IWW stood for I Won't Work.

Since you have never heard of it, you can guess how successful it was.

 

[Fantasea]

I agree, once you go two-party, it's hard to change the system. Perhaps the only hope is to, as I would like, unite a group and make it powerful enough to challenge the two parties. I have toyed with the idea of an anti-capitalist party, to sufficiently challenge the two capitalist parties we see. It would entail the unification of the anarchists, greens, and Marxists against a common foe: capitalism. It's gotten some positive feedback on my socialist forum, but I expect none here. The idea, though, is simple enough: those three factions have had some successes individually, but have mostly failed. If they were to be united, the effect would be gigantic, especially if it, as I would hope, were to go international. An international anti-capitalist party would obviously produce some major results, with democracy rather than violence. If anyone is at all interested, we may discuss this idea further (as, currently, that's all it is, an idea).

You tickle me with that ridiculous "common foe: capitalism".

Without the fruits of US capitalism, instead of being able to moan and groan on a PC, you'd be living just like those impoverished Latin Americans you so frequently reference.

 

[RightinNYC]

You tickle me with that ridiculous "common foe: capitalism".

Without the fruits of US capitalism, instead of being able to moan and groan on a PC, you'd be living just like those impoverished Latin Americans you so frequently reference.

It's lost on them...it's like the union leaders who rail against the injustice of the company that is paying them 60,000 a year, but only giving them 2 weeks of vacation, instead of 3.

 

[anomaly]

Two capitalists talking of thr fruits of capitalism, it is quite funny. You make an important point: we are the lucky ones. Yet in that same breath, you both imply that because I happen to be lucky and have been born in the USA, it is wrong for me to sympathize with and support the poor of the world. In the USA it is imperative to continue with policy like the New Deal that has lead to the fortunes we enjoy. But to continue this closed discussion and talking of the 'fruits of capitalism' is to mock and ignore the majority of this world. As an opponent of capitalism itself, I cannot believe you would simply stop and admire your own fortunes while completely ignoring the greater part of this earth. And all the while you thank capitalism, ignoring the fact that the most capitalist countries like those in Latin America are the very places where people suffer the most. It would seem that instead of hugging capitalism, you may want to hug regulations, since it is because of those that we are so fortunate. But you must understand, and neither of you do, that with capitalism comes inequality. That is, the majority of people in the world will suffer thanks to the 'fruits' of capitalism you both so admire. I am still open to debate, since you two obviously can't say enough of the wonder that is known as capitalism.

I find it completely hilarious how you assume all anti-capitalists are mindless hippies: "Plus, you'd have to convince all those damn hippies to shower off and actually drag their asses to the polls. It's hard to do, it feels too much like work, which is like kryptonite to socialists." This ranks as close to the most ignorant thing I've ever heard (didn't we agree to stop with such ignorance, and talk sensibly?). If you wish to embarrass yourself with such ignorance, go ahead, but I'd much rather we debate the system you so love. And I think you vastly underestimate the number of Americans who are 'too far' left and are completely fed up with the failing Democratic party. This party, if it were to be formed, would be a huge challenge to capitalism, more of a challenge than the USSR ever was under Stalin.

And Fant, do not be so quick to compare an idea to a party you seem to know little about. You both underestimate this movement completely, you both are completely happy with being ignorant not only of anti-capitalism, but sometimes of even capitalism, and you both will be wrong in the end. Socialism is nothing to laugh at, as you both obviously do. I will be the one laughing when the chains of capitalism are destroyed. This ignorance shown by both of you only helps my cause, and for that, I thank you both.

 

[RightinNYC]

Two capitalists talking of thr fruits of capitalism, it is quite funny. You make an important point: we are the lucky ones. Yet in that same breath, you both imply that because I happen to be lucky and have been born in the USA, it is wrong for me to sympathize with and support the poor of the world.

No, I'm just implying that it's stupid to complain about our system when it's worked the best out of any.

It's like when Hitler said Jews were subhuman, then Israel beat Germany in the olympics. And he still said Jews were subhuman. It's a hard argument of yours to back up.

As an opponent of capitalism itself, I cannot believe you would simply stop and admire your own fortunes while completely ignoring the greater part of this earth.

The word is "proponent."

And all the while you thank capitalism, ignoring the fact that the most capitalist countries like those in Latin America are the very places where people suffer the most.

Aside from the fact that I don't believe that, those countries are the ones most likely to someday become powerful countries with higher standards of living. The socialist ones will be shitholes forever.

I find it completely hilarious how you assume all anti-capitalists are mindless hippies: "Plus, you'd have to convince all those damn hippies to shower off and actually drag their asses to the polls. It's hard to do, it feels too much like work, which is like kryptonite to socialists." This ranks as close to the most ignorant thing I've ever heard (didn't we agree to stop with such ignorance, and talk sensibly?). If you wish to embarrass yourself with such ignorance, go ahead, but I'd much rather we debate the system you so love.

That was said completely tongue-in-cheek. I'm sorry I didn't make that clear enough.

And I think you vastly underestimate the number of Americans who are 'too far' left and are completely fed up with the failing Democratic party. This party, if it were to be formed, would be a huge challenge to capitalism, more of a challenge than the USSR ever was under Stalin.

No, I don't. Can you give me ANY evidence that

a) You can get greens, anarchists, socialists, communists, or Marxists to agree on a candidate
b) That any one of those groups constitutes even 1% of the US population.

Socialism is nothing to laugh at, as you both obviously do. I will be the one laughing when the chains of capitalism are destroyed. This ignorance shown by both of you only helps my cause, and for that, I thank you both.

Glad I could do my bit. After you break the chains of Capitalism, make sure to send us fruit baskets.

 

[anomaly]

No, I'm just implying that it's stupid to complain about our system when it's worked the best out of any.

It's like when Hitler said Jews were subhuman, then Israel beat Germany in the olympics. And he still said Jews were subhuman. It's a hard argument of yours to back up.

Perhaps you should remind the poor workers, peasants, and farmers of the world (an obvious majority worldwide) of the great successes of capitalism, because I don't think they'll quite agree with a student attending a nice college. The fact is that we have seen the fruits of capitalism, and this is largely thanks to the New Deal and gov't regulation, and most other countries see the ugly side of capitalism that we in the USA simply don't realize.

The word is "proponent."

Thanks for the lesson.

Aside from the fact that I don't believe that, those countries are the ones most likely to someday become powerful countries with higher standards of living. The socialist ones will be shitholes forever.

You don't believe a simple truth? I admit it is hard to find anything wrong with capitalism, when we feel its benefits. But get past your luck and fortune and realize that a majority of people in this world are not so lucky, and legitimately suffer as a result of capitalism. And socialist countries are always shitholes? News to me! As I see it, every country whaich has laissez-faire capitalist policy end up being shitholes.

No, I don't. Can you give me ANY evidence that

a) You can get greens, anarchists, socialists, communists, or Marxists to agree on a candidate
b) That any one of those groups constitutes even 1% of the US population.

First, the hatred of capitalism is enough to unite the 3 factions, I think. There is obviously no evidence of this. And if you poll Americans about Marxism, anarchism, or environmentalism, the truth is that Americans will most likely show allegiance to none of these ideologies. It should also be known that Americans, as you know, are extremely ignorant of each of these ideologies. In Europe, where the public is widely educated on all three, the support would be much greater. Also, I think you underestimate those that are simply fed up with the current supposedly leftist Democratic party and are anxious for something new. An anticapitalist party would most likely replace the Democratic party, or atleast dwarf it. I mean many Dems crossed over and became Republicans twenty years or so ago, who's to say they wouldn't go left if they'll go right?

Glad I could do my bit. After you break the chains of Capitalism, make sure to send us fruit baskets.

I'll make a note of it.

 

[RightinNYC]

Perhaps you should remind the poor workers, peasants, and farmers of the world (an obvious majority worldwide) of the great successes of capitalism, because I don't think they'll quite agree with a student attending a nice college. The fact is that we have seen the fruits of capitalism, and this is largely thanks to the New Deal and gov't regulation, and most other countries see the ugly side of capitalism that we in the USA simply don't realize.

You don't believe a simple truth? I admit it is hard to find anything wrong with capitalism, when we feel its benefits. But get past your luck and fortune and realize that a majority of people in this world are not so lucky, and legitimately suffer as a result of capitalism. And socialist countries are always shitholes? News to me! As I see it, every country whaich has laissez-faire capitalist policy end up being shitholes.

My response to both of these comments is: Prove it. Show me evidence that capitalist societies in the world are doing worse than socialist ones.

You have a propensity to make up numbers, so I'm going to want a source.

First, the hatred of capitalism is enough to unite the 3 factions, I think. There is obviously no evidence of this. And if you poll Americans about Marxism, anarchism, or environmentalism, the truth is that Americans will most likely show allegiance to none of these ideologies. It should also be known that Americans, as you know, are extremely ignorant of each of these ideologies. In Europe, where the public is widely educated on all three, the support would be much greater. Also, I think you underestimate those that are simply fed up with the current supposedly leftist Democratic party and are anxious for something new. An anticapitalist party would most likely replace the Democratic party, or atleast dwarf it. I mean many Dems crossed over and became Republicans twenty years or so ago, who's to say they wouldn't go left if they'll go right?

You responded to this for me: "There is obviously no evidence of this."

What on earth gave you the idea that an anti-capitalist party would dwarf the Democratic party? You didn't even have the courtesy to falsify some numbers to support THIS claim. Hope you're not angling for a career as a political analyst...

 

[Fantasea]

And Fant, do not be so quick to compare an idea to a party you seem to know little about. You both underestimate this movement completely, you both are completely happy with being ignorant not only of anti-capitalism, but sometimes of even capitalism, and you both will be wrong in the end. Socialism is nothing to laugh at, as you both obviously do. I will be the one laughing when the chains of capitalism are destroyed. This ignorance shown by both of you only helps my cause, and for that, I thank you both.

First, you're welcome. Second, you're mistaken.

Nothing would make me happier than having all of the impoverished people of the world being freed from their misery.

The two most influential factors in determining the fate of people is their government and their ambition. When bad governments are overthrown and freedom flourishes, the economy and the standard of living improve. In the interim, people who won't tolerate oppressive government flee.

Cuba is a prime example. No one is sneaking in. However, people risk life and limb to escape across the Straits of Florida in anything that floats. Many have died in the attempt.

 

[anomaly]

My response to both of these comments is: Prove it. Show me evidence that capitalist societies in the world are doing worse than socialist ones.

You have a propensity to make up numbers, so I'm going to want a source.

Well, what do you mean by 'doing worse'? I can tell you this: under capitalism, the poor of the world have always suffered, but now we see the middle class beginning to feel the ill effects of capitalism, as anyone will tell you that the middle class is slowly disappearing. For the rich, capitalism is more of a blessing than it ever has been. There are no numbers needed, it's simple fact. I simply cannot believe your ignorance of capitalism even as a college student, as you seemed surprised when I noted that capitalism hurts more than it helps worldwide.

You responded to this for me: "There is obviously no evidence of this."

What on earth gave you the idea that an anti-capitalist party would dwarf the Democratic party? You didn't even have the courtesy to falsify some numbers to support THIS claim. Hope you're not angling for a career as a political analyst...

In most every election in the USA, roughly 55% (at most) vote. Wonder why? Could it be because these other 45% feel that neither party best suits their interests? Obviously these 45% are looking for something new, and you know absolutely nothing, obviously, of the 'new liberals' who have taken over the Democratic party. I know of many liberals fed up with the two most capitalistic parties in the world, they need only to be united. Debating something like this party, which doesn't exist as of yet, is rather odd, though.

 

[RightinNYC]

Well, what do you mean by 'doing worse'? I can tell you this: under capitalism, the poor of the world have always suffered, but now we see the middle class beginning to feel the ill effects of capitalism, as anyone will tell you that the middle class is slowly disappearing. For the rich, capitalism is more of a blessing than it ever has been. There are no numbers needed, it's simple fact. I simply cannot believe your ignorance of capitalism even as a college student, as you seemed surprised when I noted that capitalism hurts more than it helps worldwide.

You can tell me whatever you want, but your opinion doesn't prove anything to me. Simple fact? No, simple biased opinion to you. You can disbelieve my ignorance however you want, but until you can back some of your stuff up with facts, it's pointless.

In most every election in the USA, roughly 55% (at most) vote.

Well, in the last election, 60% voted, but good try. Please, please stop making up numbers.

Wonder why? Could it be because these other 45% feel that neither party best suits their interests? Obviously these 45% are looking for something new, and you know absolutely nothing, obviously, of the 'new liberals' who have taken over the Democratic party.

No, it could be because the other 40% are lazy and don't give a **** and never will. The "new liberals" who have taken over the democratic party? Like George Soros, the biggest capitalist of them all.

I know of many liberals fed up with the two most capitalistic parties in the world, they need only to be united. Debating something like this party, which doesn't exist as of yet, is rather odd, though.

Listen, I spend some time on Democratic Underground, possibly the most liberal site on the web, and barely any of them would vote for an "anti-capitalist." You have provided no evidence nor reason why I would believe you.

 

[Fantasea]

It has been observed, "The more things change, the more they stay the same."

In 'revolutionary' times, the population broke down into three groups, one third wanted to separate from England, one third wanted to keep the status quo, and one third didn't care either way.

More than two hundred years later, a third lean to the left, a third lean to the right, and the rest just don't care either way.

 

[anomaly]

This is mostly a response to NYU. First off, I hardly 'made up' that 55%. Look at all elections over the past 20 years, and 55% is a good average. You cannot scream 'liar' just because one election happens to have slightly over 55% turnout. I certainly realize that in 1004, 60% voted. What I'm trying to point out is that in any modern election, a majority do not vote. I don't think, as you do, that these 40-50% not voting are simply lazy and "do not give a ****". But how very nice of you to generalize 40-50% of Americans. Perhaps you should go spread the word to them.

About the Democratic underground, I have only this to say: I find it absolutely hilarious how anything from the Democratic party can be labeled 'underground'. They're a mainstream party! 'The most liberal' site? Well, I wouldn't call a bunch of Dems that. 'Liberal' and 'Democrat' unfortunately are not the same thing anymore. And I find it surprising how staunchly a conservative defends the Democratic party, when here I am trying to say it's had its day. I suppose the bipartisan consensus against anything anti-capitalist holds true even today.

Lastly, you wanted some kind of 'proof' of the ills of capitalism, and the free market. Here's a great article with a bunch of your coveted statistics. It's rather long, but a good read: http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1132/is_9_55/ai_113385288/pg_1 .

 

[RightinNYC]

This is mostly a response to NYU. First off, I hardly 'made up' that 55%. Look at all elections over the past 20 years, and 55% is a good average. You cannot scream 'liar' just because one election happens to have slightly over 55% turnout. I certainly realize that in 1004, 60% voted. What I'm trying to point out is that in any modern election, a majority do not vote. I don't think, as you do, that these 40-50% not voting are simply lazy and "do not give a ****". But how very nice of you to generalize 40-50% of Americans. Perhaps you should go spread the word to them.

Actually, the only election since the 1940's to have a below 55% turnout of the Voting Elegible Persons was 1996. 60% is a better average.

And the fact is, a majority DO vote, contrary to your claim.

America is a lazy society, I don't think anyone can really debate that. Although many people do not vote because they don't think that any candidate matches their preference, I still have yet to see any proof that even 3% of those people would turn out to vote for an anti-capitalist candidate like you claim.

About the Democratic underground, I have only this to say: I find it absolutely hilarious how anything from the Democratic party can be labeled 'underground'. They're a mainstream party! 'The most liberal' site? Well, I wouldn't call a bunch of Dems that. 'Liberal' and 'Democrat' unfortunately are not the same thing anymore. And I find it surprising how staunchly a conservative defends the Democratic party, when here I am trying to say it's had its day. I suppose the bipartisan consensus against anything anti-capitalist holds true even today.

Have you actually been to Democratic Underground? The name belies the liberalism. Believe me, until you've seen it, you can't comment.

And the reason I defend the Democratic Party is because there are millions of members who have worked hard to help our country become what it is now, and who share many of the same ideals as I do.

 

[anomaly]

Actually, the only election since the 1940's to have a below 55% turnout of the Voting Elegible Persons was 1996. 60% is a better average.

And the fact is, a majority DO vote, contrary to your claim.

America is a lazy society, I don't think anyone can really debate that. Although many people do not vote because they don't think that any candidate matches their preference, I still have yet to see any proof that even 3% of those people would turn out to vote for an anti-capitalist candidate like you claim.

About proof, there really is none short of asking the people of America if they'd vote for that party, and with the ignorance out there, as you even admit, a majority would say no. But if people learned what socialism was, what capitalism is doing, I think much more than 3% would want it. But I do agree that the USA is not the most likely place for socialism to spawn. Europe is far more likely. As for the majority not voting, if I said a majority didn't vote, I apologize. But, we do know that a majority of Americans didn't vote for Bush, Clinton, Bush, Reagan etc.

Have you actually been to Democratic Underground? The name belies the liberalism. Believe me, until you've seen it, you can't comment.

And the reason I defend the Democratic Party is because there are millions of members who have worked hard to help our country become what it is now, and who share many of the same ideals as I do.

The only beef I have with the Democratic party is their abandonment of labor in the '90s. The Dems now are nothing more than moderate Republicans, favoring unrestrained capitalism just as the GOP does. As one author said, the Democratic party is the second most pro-capitalist party in history.

 

[RomanianPride]

You're right. All of these occurrances are total happenstance.

Because Romanians Will Fight For Their Freedom, Americans Take It For Granted... Soon USA, Will Turn Freeless...Very Soon

 

[RomanianPride]

Usa Is Playing Follow The Leader And Thats The Guy With A Free Ride To The High Skys Called Bush Jr

 

[RightinNYC]

Usa Is Playing Follow The Leader And Thats The Guy With A Free Ride To The High Skys Called Bush Jr

Romania Is Working Hard To Educate Its People In English Yet Failing To Succeed

 

[RomanianPride]

Well, for a 15 year old child i don't try to work on my english only my facts

 

[RightinNYC]

Well, for a 15 year old child i don't try to work on my english only my facts

What facts did you present? I couldn't make sense of anything you said.

 

[RomanianPride]

Example: i came on this site to learn, and become smarter with the surroundings in the world. I know alot about alqida and things about europe. but trying to learn more

 

[Fantasea]

Example: i came on this site to learn, and become smarter with the surroundings in the world. I know alot about alqida and things about europe. but trying to learn more

Stay with us. Perhaps as you learn from us, we can learn from you.