Kyle Rittenhouse, 17, charged with murder after two killed during Wisconsin protests

[dcsports]

You're all over the place.

First you went with the 11 minutes of "truth" video and that Rosenbaum confused Rittenhouse with the imaginary Rittenhouse who put out the dumpster fire, yet he didn't. Then you posted a tweet that says Rosenbaum was pissed because Rittenhouse did indeed put out the dumpster fire, when he didn't. Now you've wandered off in another direction that Rosenbaum was pissed that Rittenhouse was carrying a fire extinguisher. Do you realize how many people were walking around with fire extinguishers that night?

As I mentioned earlier, all from one uncut video, Rosenbaum and his group were some distance ahead of Rittenhouse after lighting a residential trash can on fire. Rittenhouse may have put it out or it could have just died back out as it is barely visible as they walk away. There has been no video showing anything past Rittenhouse walking alone at the intersection of Sheridan and 61st.

But regardless of however it happened, it is not what the 11 minute "truth" video suggests. The video you call accurate. It's not possible for Rosenbaum to be pissed at the imaginary Rittenhouse for putting out the dumpster fire, because the actual video shows someone entirely different did it. Their "truth" is bs.

I'm all over the place? lol. You are the one struggling here. Again, if Rosenbaum was angry with someone who looked like Rittenhouse specifically, or just hated people extinguishing his fires in general - it doesn't matter. Look at the video of him at the gas station, screaming at people, pushing them, throwing things at the gas pumps, and even having to be restrained by those near him. He obviously had issues.

 

[HumblePi]

Kyle Rittenhouse, 17, charged with murder after two killed during Wisconsin protests



They caught the thug. Good:

Kenosha gunman Kyle Rittenhouse arrested for murder after cops let him flee out of state – Raw Story

It would have made more of an impression on me if the police arrested him right after he killed two people and was walking towards them with his arms up. Instead, they threw him some drinking water in a bottle. He had to drive himself home, across state lines, then phone the police to give himself up. I supposed they would have tracked him down eventually.

 

[HumblePi]

He was being chased by a gang of people who were shouting threats. Then they knocked him to the ground. He has the right to defend himself.

They were trying to take him down and prevent him from murdering more people. They knew he had just shot and killed someone. Stop making excuses for a cold-blooded murderer. It's not a good look.

 

[ASHES]

It would have made more of an impression on me if the police arrested him right after he killed two people and was walking towards them with his arms up. Instead, they threw him some drinking water in a bottle. He had to drive himself home, across state lines, then phone the police to give himself up. I supposed they would have tracked him down eventually.

The water bottle was earlier in the evening, not when he was walking past the police with his hands up. Their only interaction then was him being asked if there was an injured person ahead, and yelling at him to back up.

 

[ASHES]

They were trying to take him down and prevent him from murdering more people. They knew he had just shot and killed someone. Stop making excuses for a cold-blooded murderer. It's not a good look.

We've been over that a thousand times. He was chased by Rosenbaum before he fired a shot. A protestor fired the first shot in the air. When Rosenbaum chased down Kyle, he was the aggressor. We don't know what prompted the chase other than Kyle ran away from Rosenbaum when Rosenbaum reached for him. If the first shooting was self defense, the rest were self defense.

 

[SkyFox76]

I'm all over the place? lol. You are the one struggling here. Again, if Rosenbaum was angry with someone who looked like Rittenhouse specifically, or just hated people extinguishing his fires in general - it doesn't matter. Look at the video of him at the gas station, screaming at people, pushing them, throwing things at the gas pumps, and even having to be restrained by those near him. He obviously had issues.

What have I struggled with vs you moving the goal posts all over the field? Now you've gone even further into the weeds. I've clearly shown you the lawyers video has misinformation, which was the point of discussion.

One: Camo pants was not across the street from the car lot when the first shot is heard, but they are stating fired it

Two: The imaginary Rittenhouse had nothing to do with putting out the dumpster fire, which the lawyers want to make the reason Rosenbaum was pissed, but he confused imaginary Rittenhouse with real Rittenhouse

Three: Rosenbaum was not arguing with imaginary Rittenhouse over the dumpster fire because it hadn't even been lit at the time of the argument

Four: People had not purposely gathered to create a blockade trapping Rittenhouse between the cars forcing him to turn around and shoot Rosenbaum

Five: Yes, Rittenhouse placed a call, he did not place a call for "help" like the video wants people to believe. It's confirmed he called his friend Dominic Black

No one has claimed Rosenbaum was a pleasant upbeat guy, we all get he was a hot head asshole. But you're still trying to use edited video to base a claim Rosenbaum was pissed at the imaginary Rittenhouse. Watch the original unedited and you'll see Rosenbaum arguing with a tall black guy. That guy turns and walks away, Rosenbaum follows trying to stay engaged and that's when he's shouting shoot me nigga! The black man is not armed btw. But let me guess, the next conclusion will be Rosenbaum had Rittenhouse confused with a tall black man.

 

[SkyFox76]

It would have made more of an impression on me if the police arrested him right after he killed two people and was walking towards them with his arms up. Instead, they threw him some drinking water in a bottle. He had to drive himself home, across state lines, then phone the police to give himself up. I supposed they would have tracked him down eventually.

It would have been more impressive had Rittenhouse gone to any of the other police out there and turned himself in. Or driven two blocks to the KPD.

Internet sleuths already had his full name, address, facebook, instagram and whatever else within hours of the shooting.

And what's interesting is had he turned himself in that night he'd be in custody in Wisconsin. He's already been in custody over a month with nothing going forward because his great attorneys think fighting extradition is a good hill to die on. But, regardless of what side lawyers or experts on the sidelines are saying about the actual case, they all agree fighting extradition is stupid and a waste of time. It's clearly Kyle Rittenhouse that's in custody, he's clearly the shooter. And considering he had a black eye in his virtual court appearance I'd guess he's not too popular among his fellow inmates.

Move his butt to Wisconsin and start moving ahead to the hearing.

 

[SkyFox76]

The water bottle was earlier in the evening, not when he was walking past the police with his hands up. Their only interaction then was him being asked if there was an injured person ahead, and yelling at him to back up.

I'd still be interested in hearing what he said (if anything) when he is facing the passengers side of the police car. The Bearcats were already advancing, so had he really wanted to turn himself in there was his big chance.

 

[ASHES]

I'd still be interested in hearing what he said (if anything) when he is facing the passengers side of the police car. The Bearcats were already advancing, so had he really wanted to turn himself in there was his big chance.

The problem I have is with how much noise was going on in that location. The diesel engines, sirens, radio chatter, tactical chatter, everybody shouting, gunfire, etc. The first police he approached used a bullhorn to ask him a question, and he could only respond by waving in that direction. The second one might have been windows down, but he can be heard screaming, ostensibly over anything Kyle might have been trying to say. Maybe there were hot mics on the police, that would be a start. Then statements from everyone. See what lines up, not make baseless assumptions.

 

[HumblePi]

We've been over that a thousand times. He was chased by Rosenbaum before he fired a shot. A protestor fired the first shot in the air. When Rosenbaum chased down Kyle, he was the aggressor. We don't know what prompted the chase other than Kyle ran away from Rosenbaum when Rosenbaum reached for him. If the first shooting was self defense, the rest were self defense.

self defense against a skateboard wielding assailant against a man with an assault rife.

 

[ASHES]

self defense against a skateboard wielding assailant against a man with an assault rife.

No, self defense against multiple attackers, some of whom were armed, but weren't shot when they stopped their attack.

 

[Luce]

No, self defense against multiple attackers, some of whom were armed, but weren't shot when they stopped their attack.

Sure. Now Rittenhouse's lawyers just have to prove it was self defense. Affirmative defenses aren't easy.

But wait. They're too busy hyping donations by saying the shootings were an act of patriotism.

I guess he's going to prison.

 

[SkyFox76]

The problem I have is with how much noise was going on in that location. The diesel engines, sirens, radio chatter, tactical chatter, everybody shouting, gunfire, etc. The first police he approached used a bullhorn to ask him a question, and he could only respond by waving in that direction. The second one might have been windows down, but he can be heard screaming, ostensibly over anything Kyle might have been trying to say. Maybe there were hot mics on the police, that would be a start. Then statements from everyone. See what lines up, not make baseless assumptions.

At this point i don't think it really matters, it's just a curiosity thing. I suppose though that if he said I'm the shooter and the cop just ignored him that could have some consequences. Past that though Rittenhouse had the ability to find any other cops that were in the area or go the two blocks to the actual police station. That mistake has had him sitting on his butt for over a month now, instead of going over the evidence and preparing for trial.

 

[ASHES]

Sure. Now Rittenhouse's lawyers just have to prove it was self defense. Affirmative defenses aren't easy.

But wait. They're too busy hyping donations by saying the shootings were an act of patriotism.

I guess he's going to prison.

They don't have to prove self defense, the prosecution has to disprove it by proving the elements of the charge beyond a reasonable doubt. Of course they're trying to keep the case in the headlines, they want their supporters to donate to the defense. If it goes to trial, it won't be cheap and Ms. Rittenhouse isn't paying them. I don't care for their flamboyance, or characterizing his defense as if he's a hero.

 

[Luce]

They don't have to prove self defense, the prosecution has to disprove it by proving the elements of the charge beyond a reasonable doubt.

Incorrect.

Affirmative defense - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

.

An affirmative defense to a civil lawsuit or criminal charge is a fact or set of facts other than those alleged by the plaintiff or prosecutor which, if proven by the defendant, defeats or mitigates the legal consequences of the defendant's otherwise unlawful conduct.

If Wikipedia doesn't do it for you, I can provide any number of state laws.

 

[ASHES]

Incorrect.

Affirmative defense - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

.



If Wikipedia doesn't do it for you, I can provide any number of state laws.

The only one that matters is WI law and case law.

Wisconsin Legislature: 939.48

docs.legis.wisconsin.gov

Because self-defense is a negative defense, the state disproves self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt if the state proves the elements of the crime beyond a reasonable doubt, specifically criminal negligence. Therefore, the jury was aware that the state had to prove criminal negligence—the element that self-defense would negate—beyond a reasonable doubt. State v. Langlois, 2018 WI 73, 382 Wis. 2d 414, 913 N.W.2d 812, 16-1409.

 

[Luce]

The only one that matters is WI law and case law.

Wisconsin Legislature: 939.48

docs.legis.wisconsin.gov

Because self-defense is a negative defense, the state disproves self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt if the state proves the elements of the crime beyond a reasonable doubt, specifically criminal negligence. Therefore, the jury was aware that the state had to prove criminal negligence—the element that self-defense would negate—beyond a reasonable doubt. State v. Langlois, 2018 WI 73, 382 Wis. 2d 414, 913 N.W.2d 812, 16-1409.

Well, here you go:

Wisconsin 939.48 (not "criminal negligence, homicide):

Wisconsin Legislature: 939.46(2)

docs.legis.wisconsin.gov

A defendant asserting perfect self-defense against a charge of 1st-degree murder must meet an objective threshold showing that he or she reasonably believed that he or she was preventing or terminating an unlawful interference with his or her person and that the force used was necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm. A defendant asserting the defense of unnecessary defensive force s. 940.01 (2) (b) to a charge of 1st-degree murder is not required to satisfy the objective threshold showing. State v. Head, 2002 WI 99, 255 Wis. 2d 194, 648 N.W.2d 413, 99-3071.

 

[dcsports]

What have I struggled with vs you moving the goal posts all over the field? Now you've gone even further into the weeds. I've clearly shown you the lawyers video has misinformation, which was the point of discussion.

One: Camo pants was not across the street from the car lot when the first shot is heard, but they are stating fired it

Two: The imaginary Rittenhouse had nothing to do with putting out the dumpster fire, which the lawyers want to make the reason Rosenbaum was pissed, but he confused imaginary Rittenhouse with real Rittenhouse

Three: Rosenbaum was not arguing with imaginary Rittenhouse over the dumpster fire because it hadn't even been lit at the time of the argument

Four: People had not purposely gathered to create a blockade trapping Rittenhouse between the cars forcing him to turn around and shoot Rosenbaum

Five: Yes, Rittenhouse placed a call, he did not place a call for "help" like the video wants people to believe. It's confirmed he called his friend Dominic Black

No one has claimed Rosenbaum was a pleasant upbeat guy, we all get he was a hot head asshole. But you're still trying to use edited video to base a claim Rosenbaum was pissed at the imaginary Rittenhouse. Watch the original unedited and you'll see Rosenbaum arguing with a tall black guy. That guy turns and walks away, Rosenbaum follows trying to stay engaged and that's when he's shouting shoot me nigga! The black man is not armed btw. But let me guess, the next conclusion will be Rosenbaum had Rittenhouse confused with a tall black man.

Sorry, I haven't moved the goalposts. You are struggling because the events of that night don't fit the narrative you are trying to support.

The point is that Rosenbaum was (your words) a 'hot head ____', who was aggressively screaming at a number of people, throwing things, and threatened to assault people. He was held back at several points in the video. He was mad at people putting out his fires, people on 'the other side', and even people just standing there.

It's not a stretch to think that a 17 year old, cornered in a parking lot, with an angry, threatening, loud, intimidating 37 year old man coming after him, would be afraid of being seriously hurt or killed.

 

[dcsports]

It would have been more impressive had Rittenhouse gone to any of the other police out there and turned himself in. Or driven two blocks to the KPD.

Internet sleuths already had his full name, address, facebook, instagram and whatever else within hours of the shooting.

And what's interesting is had he turned himself in that night he'd be in custody in Wisconsin. He's already been in custody over a month with nothing going forward because his great attorneys think fighting extradition is a good hill to die on. But, regardless of what side lawyers or experts on the sidelines are saying about the actual case, they all agree fighting extradition is stupid and a waste of time. It's clearly Kyle Rittenhouse that's in custody, he's clearly the shooter. And considering he had a black eye in his virtual court appearance I'd guess he's not too popular among his fellow inmates.

Move his butt to Wisconsin and start moving ahead to the hearing.

Fighting extradition is a common process - in this case, it forces Wisconsin to present the evidence to the court (and defense) giving them a preview of the evidence that would be used at trial. In this case, it could be very helpful for the defense, getting evidence as to how the prosecution will argue this wasn't self defense.

 

[ASHES]

Well, here you go:

Wisconsin 939.48 (not "criminal negligence, homicide):

Wisconsin Legislature: 939.46(2)

docs.legis.wisconsin.gov

Yes, in order to make a legal claim of self-defense, he has to meet an objective standard of evidence to do so. Once it has been introduced, it is a negative defense as I posted above that the prosecution must disprove beyond a reasonable doubt.

 

[Luce]

Yes, in order to make a legal claim of self-defense, he has to meet an objective standard of evidence to do so. Once it has been introduced, it is a negative defense as I posted above that the prosecution must disprove beyond a reasonable doubt.

Okay, sounds like we were yelling past each other.

Problem is, his lawyers are now proclaiming that the events were the acts of a "patriot" which is going to make life far easier on the prosecution.

Given his lawyers' pasts, the entire point of the exercise is to pump donations and siphon them off. The kid is doomed.

 

[ASHES]

Okay, sounds like we were yelling past each other.

Problem is, his lawyers are now proclaiming that the events were the acts of a "patriot" which is going to make life far easier on the prosecution.

Given his lawyers' pasts, the entire point of the exercise is to pump donations and siphon them off. The kid is doomed.

I don't think that helps the prosecution at all. He's already painted a white supremacist. None of that is going to be in the trial, just objective facts and evidence. If he had posted stuff on social media or communicated intent to do harm, then it would be relevant. With all the eye on this case, I don't think his lawyers will be able to siphon more than their worth. They're handling the civil side too and those settlements and lawsuits are where they have the potential for highest payment. The militia patriot rhetoric is just for the choir, because of course that kind of talk will open their wallets.

 

[Luce]

I don't think that helps the prosecution at all. He's already painted a white supremacist. None of that is going to be in the trial, just objective facts and evidence. If he had posted stuff on social media or communicated intent to do harm, then it would be relevant. With all the eye on this case, I don't think his lawyers will be able to siphon more than their worth. They're handling the civil side too and those settlements and lawsuits are where they have the potential for highest payment. The militia patriot rhetoric is just for the choir, because of course that kind of talk will open their wallets.

I'd be interested in the video of the first shooting, but we're not going to see that until discovery, assuming the defense releases it.

 

[SkyFox76]

Sorry, I haven't moved the goalposts. You are struggling because the events of that night don't fit the narrative you are trying to support.

The point is that Rosenbaum was (your words) a 'hot head ____', who was aggressively screaming at a number of people, throwing things, and threatened to assault people. He was held back at several points in the video. He was mad at people putting out his fires, people on 'the other side', and even people just standing there.

It's not a stretch to think that a 17 year old, cornered in a parking lot, with an angry, threatening, loud, intimidating 37 year old man coming after him, would be afraid of being seriously hurt or killed.

This is where we started:

They've turned this into a dog and pony show. The most recent being the 11 minute video that contains misinformation and trying to portray the shootings as "the shot heard around the world".

Your reply:

What misinformation would that be?

I gave you the information and I included two actual screen shots showing you that the lawyers are wrong to say the imaginary Rittenhouse put out the fire and Rosenbaum was confused when he went after the real Rittenhouse. I mean my goodness the two were practically twins!! Differents pants, shorts vs long, different hats, black forward vs white tan backwards, different shoes, black sneakers vs brown boots, face mask, goggles, vest on imaginary Rittenhouse and none on the real Rittenhouse. Damn near identical. I'm surprised when given the description KPD didn't rush to the gas station and arrest imaginary Rittenhouse.

Then you decided okay, it was actually Rittenhouse that put out the fire. And this is AFTER you've already seen the photos of the man putting out the fire who looks absolutely nothing like Rittenhouse.

So I can only conclude you've eaten so many bites of the lawyers "11 minutes of truth" that uncut unedited video just doesn't work for you. You've not shown any of my claims to be false.

 

[dcsports]

This is where we started:



Your reply:



I gave you the information and I included two actual screen shots showing you that the lawyers are wrong to say the imaginary Rittenhouse put out the fire and Rosenbaum was confused when he went after the real Rittenhouse. I mean my goodness the two were practically twins!! Differents pants, shorts vs long, different hats, black forward vs white tan backwards, different shoes, black sneakers vs brown boots, face mask, goggles, vest on imaginary Rittenhouse and none on the real Rittenhouse. Damn near identical. I'm surprised when given the description KPD didn't rush to the gas station and arrest imaginary Rittenhouse.

Then you decided okay, it was actually Rittenhouse that put out the fire. And this is AFTER you've already seen the photos of the man putting out the fire who looks absolutely nothing like Rittenhouse.

So I can only conclude you've eaten so many bites of the lawyers "11 minutes of truth" that uncut unedited video just doesn't work for you. You've not shown any of my claims to be false.

lol -- the reply you attributed to me was from someone else (dixon). And then throw in some other random comments. You are focusing on the wrong details.

I'll just refer you back to the post you just quoted.